I want to tell you why I took out the K&N filter...

['956Wheel]

More AIR more Dirt. Face the facts of filtration-restriction is a necessary evil, change when needed and do not fall for gimmicks. I am certain I pi$$ed off a lot of K-- fans cause they spent the bucks and have now become "rocket scientists" to justify an obvious mistake. If you are doing OIL analysis to be sure you AIR filter is good... I'll have some of what you been smok'in! #ad
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For a "change" in OIL from a difference in AIR your rings would have to be beyond shot... but there is a difference you say, you bet there is, oiled filter vs dry, where have you driven, what temps. , fuel consistancy... yeah it all comes into play here, that is the reason tests are done in a controlled environment not here and there.

If I offended anyone, oh well... I just feel this one is beat to death and beyond.

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9535hundred

[This message has been edited by Statland (edited 02-04-2001). ]

[This message has been edited by Statland (edited 02-05-2001). ]

 

[Koa Man]

Statland,
Why are you saying that K&N users are upset because they spent the bucks and made an obvious mistake? I don't think it was a "mistake" for me to install a PSA and the K&N filter that it is designed for. I intend to do the same for the next CTD I get. If someone would design a paper filter for the PSA that doesn't need oiling, I would prefer that, but for now, I feel the K&N is doing a more than adequate job of filtering the air. I do agree with you that this subject has been beat to death. It doesn't matter what someone else is running on their truck. It is their choice, their truck, and their money. As long as they are happy with what they have, I respect that choice.

 

['956Wheel]

Aloha Koa Man, Its about "does that Cummins need it"... yes choose whatever you want but it is ridiculous to read oil analysis crap in an effort to justify the "GREAT wet filter". Do not get offended if you are sorry about that.

One other thing, did you ever think of where that oil finaly settles... intercooler comes to mind! Pull your air filter someday and start that motor, rev to boost, you will be shocked at hoe much pull that turbo has! #ad


KEEP ON TRUCKIN whatever filter you use... do it, it's your baby NOT mine.

Aloha,
Mike

IF YOU PULL THE FILTER AS I MENTION ABOVE>>USE CAUTION IT REALLY PULLS!!

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9535hundred

[This message has been edited by Statland (edited 02-05-2001). ]

 

[PRout]

Max,

I dont like using the K&N. It also says that in the sig.

My argument is that... I keep reading about people relying on oil analysis to justify using the K&N.

I am not sure you will see this extra dirt showing up in the analysis.

If it did show up, the oil rings would not be doing a very good job at keeping oil in, & dirt out of the lubrication system.

Maybe im wrong, but it seems to make sense.

Just for curiosity I pulled my K&N out of the box (from the garage shelf) and looked through it into the light. Too **** many holes in it for me!! No way.

Also, Im w/ Joe D. Can't detect any performance gains w/ it in. Only more turbo noise which is not on my list of priorities when it comes to my expensive Cummins workhorse.

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2k, 30k miles, QC, SB, 4x, 6sp, 3. 54, 285/75r16 bfg/at, stock air cleaner (reliable), silencer ring "in" (runs better), Sunnybrook 28' fiver, 16,780 lbs. 18mpg (unloaded), 12-14 mpg (loaded). VA, DD1's, PS Boost module & elbow, BD brake... also, Nitrous Oxide piped direct into the block (stealth - to keep the warranty), 10 gallon per minute fuel pump, ECM right out of Don Garlit's Top Fueler (he gave it to me) (for letting him ride in my truck), Super Modified DD1 Injectors ("Hand Honed" with a 1/4" reamer & my 12v Makita). More BOMBING to come. .

 

[DavidD]

Well boys not good news, Took my truck to the dealer last Friday for a high pitched hum around 2k rpm. Guess what? He did a mic. check on the turbo and its going bad. They ordered a new one and will be done on Monday.
The suspected culprit is Dirt from the air box. I have had a K&N since about 12,000mi in the truck and now have 72,000mi on it. He said the vains had some oil deposites on them but he found no dirt. Well my thought is this, If there is oil then then there must be dirt. I am switching to the stock filter on the recommendation of my tech. unless someone else has a better idea? Oh they are fixing it under warranty.

98. 24V,QC,SWB,5sp,BD-exhaust, brake, power modual,gauges, rancho9's,ultra alloys with 315's on em.

[This message has been edited by davedd (edited 02-05-2001). ]

 

[EZ94]

I'm the "guy" that keeps talking about oil analysis so you might as well direct your comments at me.

Any uncorroborated statements about air filtration WITHOUT oil analysis aren't worth the paper they're written on. Without the aid of spectral analysis, you won't ever be able to "see" what's in the oil and what's going on inside your engine. Any conclusions you care to draw about filtration that are not buttressed by empirical data are nothing more than conjecture.

I have had about every type of filter on my truck and the K&N conical filter I now use has reduced the silica contamination in my engine oil by a factor of 15! Thus, it comes as no surprise to me that the area between filter and turbo, the turbo itself and the tube from turbo to intercooler are absolutely spotless.

Oil analysis is and has been the industry standard for judging the internal health of internal combustion engines, hydraulic pumps and transmissions for a very long time. I have never heard of anyone competent to do so calling the accuracy of the procedure into question. As a result, I'm afraid your comments about the accuracy of oil analysis ring a little hollow. And even though it may be difficult for you to understand how airborne dust can get by piston rings, the fact is that it does so all the time. The pressures inside an internal combustion engine are enormous and those pressures are able to push dust around and/or past piston rings. Blowby is another example of imperfect cylinder sealing. Even the most carefully crafted and assembled engines undergo some cylinder leakage when subject to a leak-down test.

I do not run oil analysis to "justify" the cost of an air filter. I use it to verify that it's working. And I have learned through oil analysis that some air filtration systems work and some do not and I stand by my earlier comments. So until you have some empircial data to share rather than personal "feelings" spare me the diatribe about what works and what doesn't.

BTW, how do you get a throttled engine that's not under load "to boost"?

 

['956Wheel]

EZ, Unreal how a man who would seemingly possess eloquence has turned this subject so personal... yes I'm the dumba$$ who, with 25 plus years of mechanical experience, can not understand how one conducts a "test" with variables NOT in their control swear by the out come of these "tests" Yes I will have some of what you've been smok'in! #ad
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9535hundred

[This message has been edited by Statland (edited 02-05-2001). ]

[This message has been edited by Statland (edited 02-06-2001). ]

 

[Koa Man]

quote:
Aloha Koa Man, Its about "does that Cummins need it"... yes choose whatever you want but it is ridiculous to read oil analysis crap in an effort to justify the "GREAT wet filter". Do not get offended if you are sorry about that.

I don't send my oil for analysis so I don't know what my silicon or whatever reading would be. I also don't use K&N because it is a K&N. I use the RE0880 because it is the ONLY filter that will fit inside the PSA unit WHICH I know my Cummins NEEDS to keep the EGTs under control when I am towing up a little hill we have here known as the Pali Highway. EZ94 and others who have been here know which hill I am talking about and how hard a climb it is. As I mentioned earlier, if someone made a paper filter for the PSA, and Scott is working on that, I would use it instead of one that I have to oil. I wouldn't care whether that filter was made by K&N, Wix, Fram, Nelson or whoever. Like EZ94, I have pulled the turbo hose off to check the vanes etc. and they are all clean. They don't feel oily either. I think so much of the PSA that I have already ordered a 2nd one from Scott so that I'll already have it when I get my 2nd CTD.

Don't want to seem ignorant, but since I don't know squat about oil analysis, where does the OIL filter factor in????

 

['956Wheel]

Originally posted by EZ94


When it comes to filtration your stock filter may be doing just fine and there's no reason why you should switch it out for the K. Do, however, consider oil analysis to verify the effectiveness of whatever system you're using. Your stock box and filter may be working perfectly but with analysis there's no second guessing. Good Luck.


[This message has been edited by EZ94 (edited 02-03-2001). ][/B]

If you got dirt getting by your rings, getting in your oil... you got problems! Not to mention you do not need to oil your intercooler! Keep it clean and dry thats what I do and I got 156,000 on my '95! #ad


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9535hundred

[This message has been edited by Statland (edited 02-06-2001). ]

 

[GeoVeo]

References to oil analysis have been presented as the primary reason for not using a K&N. When someone makes a claim and presents evidence to support it, I think its good to hear from others that both support and contradict the evidence - and we certainly have seen plenty of that #ad


Ok, I'll sneak this in - 15K miles on synthetic oil, oil filter changed every 5K, oil samples sent to two different labs every filter change (Blackstone is one), silica levels 2-5ppm.

Am I hurting my engine by running a K&N? Am I hurting it by going 15K+ on synthetic? That is certainly not my intention, and pride would not stop me from changing anything I thought was harming my truck. I'll have to go by the oil analysis reports to answer both those questions.

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'94 2500 Driftwood, Auto 4X4, 4. 10

 

['956Wheel]

Aloha Koa, I never mentioned oil filter. . it was OILED FILTER that I refferenced. I got well over 150K on my '95, with dry stock filters. One guy in this post mentioned his loyalty to WIX filters. . I think they make the stock ones... do you know?

Mike

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9535hundred

 

[Koa Man]

Statland,
When I say oil filter, I am not talking about oiled air filters. I mean engine oil filters. What I want to know is, Does the OIL Filter have anything to do with how clean your oil analysis is? Or is it only the AIR Filter that affects how clean your engine oil is? I would think the oil filter would have some effect, or am I completely off base? Explain to me what an oil analysis is doing, seeing how good your AIR filter is working, your OIL filter is working, or both???

 

['956Wheel]

Woah Bro Koa,

There seems to be a large misunderstanding here. I am not the guy yappin about oil analysis... it makes no sense to judge an air cleaners performance by looking at the oil. On the other hand certainly an oil filter would have a part in how your oil is, exactly what I do not know. If I took a, what I feel as a good guess, some guy would get into a battle of wits with me... unarmed. . I don't wanna do that. So I ain't gonna state ANY opinion... I'll just wait for legal counsel to arrive in a cement truck. #ad
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Aloha Bro

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9535hundred

 

[QRTRHRS]

While doing some upgrades, I pulled the metal intake pipe off the right side of the engine, next to the fuel pump. I was surprised and none to happy to find surface rust on the inside of this pipe. K&N, stock, Amsoil, whatever would not help this condition.

Anyone else ever observe this?

 

[Ski Bum]

Many industrial air handling systems use high efficiency air filtration systems (e. g. , clean rooms). These systems almost always use disposable dry-type extended surface filters because their high performance.

The K&N type filter is of a type known as a "viscous impingement filter". The oil acts as an adhesive trapping particles. One characteristic is that as the filter loads up, it simply lets more of the particles through (efficiency is reduced) and opposed to an increase in pressure drop as seen in a loaded dry-type filter. Another characteristic is low degree of particulate arrestance or low filtration efficiency rates.

The industrial uses for viscous impingement filters are limited to applications requiring lower filtration efficiencies (e. g. , warehouses, workshops), and as use as a pre-filter (installed upstream) for high efficiency filter systems (in other words as a trash filter to help extend the life of the expensive dry-type high efficiency filter downstream of it).

In my opinion the K&N filter is designed for dirt bikes, dune buggies, street rods and other naturally aspirated gasoline engines that aren't going to be around long anyway. Its low pressure drop, and ability to filter out the sticks and stones, makes it an OK choice for these applications. But put it in my Cummins? Not me. #ad



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2001. 5 2500 QC, SB, 4x4, ETH 6-sp, 3. 54 LSD, SLT++ (everything but cab lights), White over Silver, Tan leather. 4-wheel disk brakes. Delivered 8/31/00.

 

['956Wheel]

I shall yeild to the man from Utah... he may go by "Ski Bum" however is making a point that has been, until now, ignored. Lawn mowers use a "wet one", my Cummins is like no mower I have ever seen. Dry and clean... you are sooo right. On filtration, Ski, do you think electronic filters will ever be found under our hoods, akin to those in A. C. ?

Park City... man thats nice! #ad
#ad


Mike

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9535hundred

 

[Koa Man]

Statland, I was just hoping you would know the answer to my question about oil analysis, which as I had mentioned earlier, I know nothing about. Does anyone know how much of a role the engine oil filter plays in an oil analysis report???

 

[PRout]

Originally posted by EZ94:
I'm the "guy" that keeps talking about oil analysis so you might as well direct your comments at me.

Any uncorroborated statements about air filtration WITHOUT oil analysis aren't worth the paper they're written on. Without the aid of spectral analysis, you won't ever be able to "see" what's in the oil and what's going on inside your engine. Any conclusions you care to draw about filtration that are not buttressed by empirical data are nothing more than conjecture.

I have had about every type of filter on my truck and the K&N conical filter I now use has reduced the silica contamination in my engine oil by a factor of 15!

So until you have some empircial data to share rather than personal "feelings" spare me the diatribe about what works and what doesn't.

EZ, Sorry if what I posted got you excited. It was certainly not my intention to do that (even though there might be a few people getting a good chuckle out of seeing you get all overly worked up & personal over a stinkin air fiter). I certainly wasn't attempting to do that.

But I'm with ya EZ...

Ok, say if someone was to run a test of oil samples, it seems to me, we would get a baseline first. Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

Have you established a starting point of reference? Have you gone ahead and taken an oil sample straight from a newly opened oil container? If so, what were the numbers? It would be helpful to pass this along to the rest of us, so that we too, could establish an indexing point to work from.

Do we have a controlled environment? A place in which we can reasonably verify that the dirt levels in the air are fairly consistant from one sample to another. I'm concerned that the humidity, amount of wind stir, & atmospheric pressure (altitude) remain constant, so that we're simulating an environment such as summer, or winter, or the windy months, (which ever we choose) represent a consistant sample of air flowing through our subject air cleaner test rack.

Do we have a test motor that has been freed of its original silicone casting particulates that have remained from the mfg process? We need to be certain that we have a clean test motor, ensuring that any silicone & other contaminants do in fact, enter the system via the intake tract. Has there been any form of passivation type cleaning process performed, that would be condusive to achieving our required result which is of course, surveying the affects of deviation from the factory recommended air cleaner element.

Are we interpreting the data in a way as to extract accurate, real-world, practical contamination data, that represents a true, average user environment. For example are we comparing silicone level as compared to the amount of miles driven, or are we looking at silicone levels compared to other contaminants in the oil, as to establish a level of dirt vs blow-by soot, diesel fuel dilution, vs the loss of essential trace minerals, vitamins, etc. ??

I'm sure there are other important factors involved in our little scientific study to finally resolve this K&N dilemma once & for all, but my fingers are tired, and all this yawning I'm doing is starting to make me thirsty, so if anyone has anymore input to assist EZ in his quest for excellence & superiority, please post it here, so that we may assist any future perspective TDR members, and possibly sway them into joining our big happy brotherhood of congenial, hospitable, always ready to help each other in any way possible, and happily exchange our wealth of knowledge in any ways possible...

I'll be off trying to figure out how a silicone reduction factor of 15 at the same time acheiving more airflow... lets see. . 15. . hmmm that means if you have 5 ppm now. . you had 75 before?? Wow, thats impressive!

Guess Ill hang on to mine now so when the silicone flushes out of my motor and Im down to about 5 ppm, maybe I can lower it to below . 25 of a ppm...

*ell, maybe I'll just run out and by 2 of em, run em back to back and double my airflow. I'll be darned

... Your K&N is a peice z.

 

[WAYNE]

Bottom line ( IMO ) if youre running over the stock boost limit, or a well modified engine, youre killing performance making the turbo suck air through a stock paper filter.

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99 QC. Sport,2WD 139"wb. auto,3:54 limited slip,all options except leather. autometer ultralite boost and trans. temp gauges,computech digital EGT moniter, K@N 14" cone filter, 275HP. RV injectors, custom 4"exhaust, power edge EZ, DTT VB & TC, mopar performance deep transmission pan, mag hy-tech rear end cover, roll@lock bed cover, plus other cool stuff.

 

[PRout]

No power difference on the dyno.