I6, V8 diesels in OTR and off road applications

[Bill Stockard]

Really> the Oliver with a 3406 cleans out the field class... ?? Never seen one that could keep with a good IH 1066 with a little I6 414ci engine in it.

Yep, I have seen what that little IH414T in a 1066 will do after making a few "minor adjustments"... amazing!:-laf



Bill

 

[Mhannink]

I'm not sure what you were attempting to say. You both adopted my agument as your own and attempted again to refute it.



I repeat my earlier statement. V8 diesels used in light truck applications are throw away engines. Cummins ISBs are not. They provide very long service as new and can easily and cheaply be freshened up or rebuilt.



Furd 7. 3s, 6. ohhs, 6. 4s, and now 6. 7s are not now and never were medium duty engines. Look at the engine tag and you will clearly see light duty. Not even Furd or obama motors ever claimed their engines were medium duty.



Neither is a Furd F-450 a medium duty truck.

i could not find the engine tag, but on the door the 450 says it is medium duty, i took a pic and can upload it if you would like me too. i could not find the engine tag saying it was medium duty, however here in cali the truck is currently exempt from the new smog laws becaue it is medium duty truck, with a medium duty engine.

I cant see Cummins making a special engine just for Chrysler.



Now, maybe some earlier engine parts are different, but for Cummins to re design an Chrysler specific power plant? No way.

actually just about every manufacturer has application specific parts for every engine, thats what the cpl or critical parts list number is for. the cummins alone has different critical parts for marine apps vs fl60(medium duty) and the dodge app, even inside that the cpl's will differ based on power ratings, duty cyle, and other considerations.



i have never seen one but have seen credible evidence (cited books) that eventhe chev 350 and other such gasser blocks, back in their glory days had different, heavier, blocks for their marine apps vs car apps. i dont know that for fact but it could be true. i do know for a fact about diesels though, the blocks maybe the same, but many of the parts are different and sometimes significantly heavier.

There's really nothing magic about a 120 degree bank angle for a V-6 over a 90 degree for a V-8, a 72 degree for a V-10, a 60 degree for a V-12, or a 45 degree for a V-16. A desirable bank angle is generally calculated as 720 degrees divided by the number of cylinders. Even at that, most V-6 engines that aren't made on V-8 assembly lines use a 60 degree compromise bank angle as the 120 degree would be too wide for many applications.



Having said that, as far as non-inline engines are concerned, an engine using a 180 degree bank angle (a flat or boxer engine) would conceptually be optimum as secondary balance forces from the 2 banks would tend to cancel each other out.



Rusty

rusty im not arguing your point, but i have heard something similar to ah64, truthfully i think both of you are saying the same things just in different words, more maybe you are talking about parellel ideas that have not been lined up yet. also i believe you are right about the opposed engines, they tand to produce a lot of bottom end torque and do well with rpm as well, all due to good natural balance.

I heard of a few of them that ran 400k miles as RV transport trucks but even the engine data plate did NOT claim they were medium duty motors. They had connecting rods, bearings, and crank journals very similar in size and structure to small block Chevy gas motors.



I say again, Navistar 7. 3 engines compared with Cummins inline six diesels only in that both burned diesel fuel.

harvey, the similarity of the internal components of a diesel v8 and a gas v8 is due to packaging. you cant have 7 main bearings and individual rod bearings on each crank throw in a v8, its not possible, that does not mean its not considered heavy duty. as for a reliabliaty is concerned thats more proper design (or lack thereof) and maintenence than anything else.

3208... can we just forget about that engine... what a slug...



yes, the D-9R ran a 3408, the D-10R ran a 3412, and the D-11R ran a 3508... If memory serves me, the D10R engine on the dyno would produce just about 700hp... the 3508 in the D-11R was the same as the 992G, about 1000hp.

The new D9T runs a C series inline 6. . can remember which, if its a C-15 or C-18, the new D10T runs a C-27... .

wingate, have you seen the 3208 in marine app? i dont think slug is a fitting word for it. the 3208 was really a poorly misunderstood engine, it was a dog in on highway apps, machine world it did ok, but in marine world it was a runner, @ 1100hp i think not many would say otherwise. as far as reliable goes i have not dealt with them enough to say, i have heard a lot of good and bad on those engines. the place i used to work at, an employee had a marine spec 3208 in a chev 2500, there is a pic of him in the parking lot with smoke rolling off all 4 tires, that was a off pure acceleration. nothing to aid in spinning the tires.

I bought a used '82 Olds 88 w/350 "diesel". It was a beautiful loaded car w/30k miles. 70% off sticker price. How bad could it be? Every week something new failed of it. When the glow plug relay stuck and they all burned out, that was enough. I dropped in a gas 350 from the junk yard and sold it, then bought my first Toyota and have driven them ever since. My dad always drove Olds and I carried on the the tradition, until I got conned with that POS. It definitely was not my dad's Oldsmobile.

those old chevy diesels sucked, the blocks were simply not strong enough to handle a diesel's compression. i have to say though i have never heard about too many base engine problems, it was more the add on stuff. i. e. fuel system, electrical, and gaskets and seals. it is an engine i have not done much with though, so i cant really speak to that much.

 

[Wingate]

wingate, have you seen the 3208 in marine app? i dont think slug is a fitting word for it. the 3208 was really a poorly misunderstood engine, it was a dog in on highway apps, machine world it did ok, but in marine world it was a runner, @ 1100hp i think not many would say otherwise. as far as reliable goes i have not dealt with them enough to say, i have heard a lot of good and bad on those engines. the place i used to work at, an employee had a marine spec 3208 in a chev 2500, there is a pic of him in the parking lot with smoke rolling off all 4 tires, that was a off pure acceleration. nothing to aid in spinning the tires.

.

Not alot of marine boats running 3208s in N. E. Texas... . not enough room between the pine trees. .

Really never dealt with them in on-highway, but in some limited industrial apps. , they weren't too terribloy bad until you had to R&R the fuel transfer pump. . !!. . What should be a 20 minute job becomes a 5-10 hour job!!. .

The 1100 hp marine app. would be a bottle rocket engine... light the fuse and stand back!!.

If that little engine is making 1100hp, it has an extremely limited service life and is twisting a bunch of RPM...

Seen lots of them in emergency firepump apps... all burnt up!!!

I'm not really bashing it, its just NOT my choice of Cats to work on...

 

[jgillott]

We just received 4 new Internationals with the new MaxxForce 7 (6. 4L) at work. It will be interesting to see if they hold up better than the VT-365's they are replacing.

 

[Nyoest]

1100 horse 3208???!!! This I have to see from a safe distance. I can believe 1100 ft lb in a marine app simply because of unlimited cooling capacity.

 

[Mhannink]

Not alot of marine boats running 3208s in N. E. Texas... . not enough room between the pine trees. .

Really never dealt with them in on-highway, but in some limited industrial apps. , they weren't too terribloy bad until you had to R&R the fuel transfer pump. . !!. . What should be a 20 minute job becomes a 5-10 hour job!!. .

The 1100 hp marine app. would be a bottle rocket engine... light the fuse and stand back!!.

If that little engine is making 1100hp, it has an extremely limited service life and is twisting a bunch of RPM...

Seen lots of them in emergency firepump apps... all burnt up!!!

I'm not really bashing it, its just NOT my choice of Cats to work on...

1100 horse 3208???!!! This I have to see from a safe distance. I can believe 1100 ft lb in a marine app simply because of unlimited cooling capacity.

i had some lituerature on it somewhere, yeah 1100 horse power, not torque. its always funny the responses i get when i mention that that gutless pos 3208 cat that everyone hates is really a runner when tuned right, it has the power potential. also that engine isnt little its 10 liter displacement, but i have seen them stuffed into fords, amazing the cubes in that v8. i never did do a transfer pump in them but i can imagine it was a *****, the fuel pumps too where not fun. they worked a lot like the p pump or the new scroll fuel system in cats but they where sleeve metering, a lot of small crucial minor adjustments, made a big difference on the engine performance. it looked like a bad job for who ever had to set that pump. i do hope to own one of these engines in marine trim one day, would be a lot of fun to play with.



the engines werent too bad to work on, the biggest problem i ever encountered was the jumper lines for the nozzels, 7 sided, had to have a special wrench to take them off.

 

[NIsaacs]

I was never around the 3208 much, however they were very popular in Ford medium duty trucks in the 70's and 80's and I seem to recall that Caterpillar and Ford had some sort of partnership at the time.



I remember back in 1972 the St. Labre Indian mission in Ashland, Mt. had a mail carrier contracted to a company out of Billings that run the Ford C6000's with 1160 Cat's. I was hauling logs at the time in a 63' IHC with a 280 Cummins and got my doors blowed off numerous times by those little trucks.



Nick

 

[Bill Stockard]

I was hauling logs at the time in a 63' IHC with a 280 Cummins...

Nick

Would that have been a modified 250 Cummins? IIRC, they were hard to start without ether when it was cold.



Bill

 

[mwilson]

Would that have been a modified 250 Cummins? IIRC, they were hard to start without ether when it was cold.



Bill

Anyone remember the compression release on those old brutes?



Linkage connected to collars on the exhaust pushrods, sucked the starting fluid in really quick... .

 

[Wingate]

i had some lituerature on it somewhere, yeah 1100 horse power, not torque. its always funny the responses i get when i mention that that gutless pos 3208 cat that everyone hates is really a runner when tuned right, it has the power potential. also that engine isnt little its 10 liter displacement, but i have seen them stuffed into fords, amazing the cubes in that v8. i never did do a transfer pump in them but i can imagine it was a *****, the fuel pumps too where not fun. they worked a lot like the p pump or the new scroll fuel system in cats but they where sleeve metering, a lot of small crucial minor adjustments, made a big difference on the engine performance. it looked like a bad job for who ever had to set that pump. i do hope to own one of these engines in marine trim one day, would be a lot of fun to play with.



the engines werent too bad to work on, the biggest problem i ever encountered was the jumper lines for the nozzels, 7 sided, had to have a special wrench to take them off.

ok... while at work today I ran a myriad of 3208 marine serial numbers from the first 100 built thru the last 100 built... I found nothing over about 400hp...

Not saying it it doesnt exist, I would just really like the serial number off a 1100 hp 3208... With th s/n I could get the complete specs on it... The fueling specs would make a good base tune for a drag race 3208... I always wanted to build a Cummins, but if I can pull those #'s out of a 3208, that would be better. .

 

[Mhannink]

Ill see what I can find. I don't remember any serial numbers I looked around on sis and found it also remember seeing mention of it in other literature. Ill look through my paper work this weekend but I doubt ill have any thing of use to you. Ill see if a buddy of mine that still worksat the dealership can get me anything.

 

[HEMI®Dart]

I thought I read the new Furn 6. 7 was labeled as "Medium Duty"

 

[AH64ID]

They can label it that, but what medium duty trucks is it offered in? The F-650-F-750 have ISB's in them.

 

[NIsaacs]

Anyone remember the compression release on those old brutes?



Linkage connected to collars on the exhaust pushrods, sucked the starting fluid in really quick... .

Yup, sucked it right through them yukky oil bath air cleaners! Some of the old 220 blocks had an intake heater, looked like an oversized spark plug. The compression release was nice for cold weather and weak batteries.



During the winter of 72-73 I was hauling out of Dillon, MT. it got so cold we had to let the trucks run all night for several days.



Yes, the 280 Cummins was a 250 with a turbo, non oil cooled pistons. A good running one would keep up with a good 335 until the hill got steep, then you had to back out of it due to EGT. I used to hate that:-laf



Nick

 

[AEdelheit]

I dont think Ive ever even seen a 3408 rated to 1100HP

 

[Nyoest]

I dont think Ive ever even seen a 3408 rated to 1100HP

I remain sceptical as well. There was a period it was called an 1100 series engine for the ford trucks but the horse power rating for most of those is the 280 horse you would expect.

If it isn't in google's top three it never happened!



I've been wrong before, just ask my wife.

 

[Nyoest]

Yet one more v 8, a cummins 555. Apparently the shoddy little brother to the 903 Just got one in at the shop in a Link Belt crane with engine trouble. Ought to be fun!

 

[Wingate]

I dont think Ive ever even seen a 3408 rated to 1100HP

dont know what ive seen for a 3408, the little d-9 single turbo was 450 or so...

we have tons of 3412 industrials that will pull 1500@2100rpm. . I love hearing those engines run straight piped on the dyno. .

 

[Nyoest]

Err well that was a typo sposed to be 3208. Big fingers and a I phone dont go too well together.

 

[Bill Stockard]

dont know what ive seen for a 3408, the little d-9 single turbo was 450 or so...

we have tons of 3412 industrials that will pull 1500@2100rpm. . I love hearing those engines run straight piped on the dyno. .

WOW!! It must take a big dyno. Is the dyno portable or do you take the engine to it and tie the engine down? Yep, I'd love to hear one run turning out 1500 HP. Do you have a dyno in the Longview shop?



Bill