If You Use Fuel Additives - Emulsifyer or Demulsifyer & Why?

[tschwab]

Matt400,



Great article, thanks!! From what I gather from that article is Cummins is neutral on the issue, but they have seen some problems from emulsifyed fuel? Additionally, the WIF indicator will not work whan using emulsifyed fuel. Am I correct here? I think I will be staying with Stanadyne PF.

 

[Matt400]

I'll be trying their Diesel 911 right away.

But most importantly if at all possible to locate the source and switch brands.

 

[Matt400]

tschwab,

They may seem neutral but I read it as a bad thing.

 

[tschwab]

tschwab,

They may seem neutral but I read it as a bad thing.

Matt,



Please elaborate. What do you see as a bad thing? Emulsifyers?

 

[LightmanE300]

First of all guys, the article just above is talking about something COMPLETELY different. Water-emulsified fuel is NOT diesel fuel with an emulsifying additive, it's an experimental type of fuel with water intentionally added to it. Different topic entirely.



Some of you may have read my posts about the fuel additives and why I use emulsifying additives. In short I'll simply say that in the real world day to day scenario demulsifying additives do not work. If you dont' believe me, go drain your fuel filter into a clear jar and you'll see no water. That's because the typical amounts of water in diesel fuel is less than 115ppm, and remains suspended. Water levels above 115ppm are abnormal, and may cause water to 'fall out' and become 'free water'. Here's the key - water separating filters only trap larger slugs of free water. Since on an everyday basis most of us buy fuel from reliable sources, the question of the day is - what should we use to treat the suspended (less than 115ppm) water that is in all diesel fuel? Typical fuels have 50-75ppm, all have some suspended water. Since the water separator won't work on water this small, I choose to break it down/disperse/solubize it into the smallest safest size droplets, since it will inevitably go through the fuel system. In short - demulsifiers will only help to a point with a BAD tank of fuel, and only help to a degree. Iv'e used primrose and redline for the last 4 years and have been very happy.

 

[Matt400]

First of all guys, the article just above is talking about something COMPLETELY different.

True to a point but not completely. I only posted that as a reference to others looking to emulsify water they continue to get from their separators.



I should have said:

If you are draining water from your separator all the time... look what Cummins has to say about running fuel with water in it.



I agree that is different than what your goal is- to reduce even further 50-75ppm.

 

[LightmanE300]

The above article is about an experimental fuel, and has nothing to do with the fuel additive discussion. Matt, the article above also isn't about normal diesel fuel that has a lot of water in it, or guys who find some in their separators. Maybe I'm missing something but I'm not sure I follow what you're thinking.



Nobody is trying to reduce the water content with additives. Not sure what you meant by that either.

 

[jhyatt]

lubidiesel in both 1000 gallon tanks all equipment and all 3 of my turbo diesels past and present still running... ... ... ... ... ... ... .

 

[Matt400]

The above article is about an experimental fuel, and has nothing to do with the fuel additive discussion.

I am sorry you feel that way, it was the closest thing I could find on what Cummins has to say about running emulsified water through their fuel systems.

the article above also isn't about normal diesel fuel that has a lot of water in it

Hrmm, did I miss something...

The fuel is made up of (2 to 3%) additive, needed as an emulsion enabler, corrosion inhibitor and lubricity improver, about 18% water, and about 80% #2 diesel

I read that as very similar to a bad tank (water) of fuel with a bottle of current available emulsifier. Sure maybe its not exactly the same ratios but the main ingredient is #2 and water.

Nobody is trying to reduce the water content with additives.

I know that, but aren't some trying to "run" the water they are getting by emulsifying? If they were not then why the original post at all?



Fireman has been getting some water and is concerned, his decision is a sound one IMO for the current tank he has as long as he can also switch brands.



I realize your focus is on good fuels that show no water in the separator but surely some read this stuff that have supply trouble in their area. I didn't mean to get off track and thought the original post was also intended for folks concerned about too much water especially in the winter and not just treating good fuel.

 

[rbattelle]

I am so confused... which is why I run no additives. So confused.



Maybe I'll just run some Stanadyne lubricity enhancer... doesn't do anything with water but keeps things nice and lubed.



-Ryan

 

[ACerf]

fuel Additives

I have 30K on my 03', and as of yet have never had a water problem. If my memory services me right, DC does not recommand adding any additive to the fuel... but I could be wrong, sometimes I am! I am getting 16-17 mpg around town and in around 20+ on the highway. I also get about 12+ pulling my trailer. I drain the fuel ever once in while, with no water present. If I were to vote I would say "No" if there was a no. Oo.

 

[Matt400]

I am so confused... which is why I run no additives. So confused.



Maybe I'll just run some Stanadyne lubricity enhancer... doesn't do anything with water but keeps things nice and lubed.



-Ryan

:-laf Let me help to confuse you even more…

Some good reading on Lubricicity can be found here



Also in Chevrons Q & A section you will find this quote:

Does low sulfur diesel fuel have enough lubricity?

Yes. Even though the process used to lower the sulfur in diesel can also remove some of the components that give the fuel its lubricity, reputable refiners monitor this property and use an additive, as needed, to raise the lubricity to an acceptable level

The above was found here



Also I question the attempt to reverse Demulsifiers that are currently already in the fuel, check this out-

Demulsifiers Normally, hydrocarbons and water separate rapidly and cleanly. But if the fuel contains polar compounds that behave like surfactants and if free water is present, the fuel and water can form an emulsion. Any operation which subjects the mixture to high shear forces, like pumping the fuel, can stabilize the emulsion. Demulsifiers are surfactants that break up emulsions and allow the fuel and water phases to separate. Demulsifiers typically are used in the concentration range of 5 ppm to 30 ppm.

You can also read that here

 

[tschwab]

I am so confused... which is why I run no additives. So confused.



Maybe I'll just run some Stanadyne lubricity enhancer... doesn't do anything with water but keeps things nice and lubed.



-Ryan

Ryan,



I hear ya. Everytime I think a demulsifyer is the way to go, someone comes up with a good point as to why an emulsifyer is the way to go, or vise versa

 

[Big MAK]

... and here I am planning on adding WATER INJECTION ...



Ha! :-laf



Suffice to say; a -little- bit of water doesn't hurt a thing; unless it freezes and plugs up your filter. So no need to get too crazy about not having -any- water in the fuel.

 

[LightmanE300]

Lets hear any reasons why demulsifiers are the way to go!



Fireman who is the rare case, has definitely gotten fuel from a bad source, and using something like PS911 would be completely appropriate!



My comments are directed toward people using typical average diesel fuel. If you have normal diesel fuel, your water separator -whether that's stock or a 2 micron fancy racor, will not stop water less than 115ppm. Even the guys at Airdog will willingly tell you that their systems won't stop water that small. So the choice on a daily level is to demulsify/clump the water and have it pass through the system, or disperse it/emulsify to have it more safely pass through. The water passes through inevitably.



Let me just state that in a perfect world where nothing moves, demulsifiers are good in theory. For example, in stationary fuel tanks, where they have drains/valves on the bottom, a demulsifier can work, pooling water to the bottom to be drained. However, in a vehicle, motion is introduced, and the jostling of the fuel as it shakes around the tank breaks up the clumps and causes them to diserse within the fuel - however in larger less safe clumps than if they had been emulsified.



Matt 400 - the ratios you showed and your comments that you 'read that' as being similar to diesel fuel with water in it are where you went wrong. 18% water is WAAAAY more than even a bad tank of diesel would have. As I had mentioned, water typically becomes free water after about 115ppm or higher concentrations. Fuel additives are only effective in normal ranges of water contamination. Just as a frame of reference - the water emulsified fuel you note above with 18% water - thats 180,000ppm of water if my primitive calculations are correct! Regardless, I think you can see my point, that comparing water-emulsifieid fuel and regular diesel is completely apples to oranges, not even in the same ballpark.





Ryan, sorry for the confusion bud It's a fun topic!

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"the water emulsified fuel you note above with 18% water - thats 180,000ppm of water if my primitive calculations are correct!"



OR, more pointedly, that would amount to about 7 gallons of water in a standard Dodge fuel tank...



*I* would sure want to drive on by any station putting out that percentage of water in their fuel!

 

[LightmanE300]

"the water emulsified fuel you note above with 18% water - thats 180,000ppm of water if my primitive calculations are correct!"



OR, more pointedly, that would amount to about 7 gallons of water in a standard Dodge fuel tank...



*I* would sure want to drive on by any station putting out that percentage of water in their fuel!

Gary, thanks for putting that in a more tangible perspective. I just wanted to stress that the water emulsified fuel was an entirely different beast than reg #2 with water in it. 7 gals!

 

[LightmanE300]

I should also note that the POLL above is incorrect, and sends the wrong message to those that briefly view it - POWERSERVICE is NOT a demulsifyer, it should be grouped with redline and primrose. Their DFS which is the most commonly used (white bottle) uses a solubizer, which for the purposes of this thread, is the same as what most have come to know as an 'emulsifier. ' I didn't separate solubizing/emulsifying for the sake of simplicity, because both disperse the water back into the fuel to safely pass, versus demulsifiers which separate the water.

 

[Matt400]

the ratios you showed and your comments that you 'read that' as being similar to diesel fuel with water in it are where you went wrong. 18% water is WAAAAY more than even a bad tank of diesel would have.

Maybe by your experience but not mine. Last winter I pulled tanks on 8 vehicles that had a wide range of water to fuel ratios due to heavy rains that seeped into service station tanks. The worst ones had about 3 gallons of fuel and the rest of the tank filled with water. Those obviously wouldn't run at all.



For the ones still running but not well, the local auto parts stores sold out fast of all their bottled products to attack the water in fuel trouble. Those people wanted a quick inexpensive fix and I don't blame em.



So 6. 5 gallons water to 30 gallons fuel would be runnable as long as its emulsified allowing the driver to stay away from a big repair bill. Is it good or ok? That's questionable and Cummins reports on doing it are not favorable.



Like I said before. . I get what you are saying in that you are focused on the good fuels and choose to break it down/disperse/solubize it. Thats works for you.

I don't use any additive "unless" I know the system has been contaminated with large amounts of water. That has worked for me.



Everybody buys those additives for different reasons, in our area they sell better in the winter due to the water trouble.

Others buy it for the lube or are concerned about water levels they can't see in their separator. I have thought about using some just for a cetane kick.

 

[LightmanE300]

Matt400, I'm sorry you have to fuel at such poor sources, or people near you do. Most of us luckily fill at normal stations with normal fuel.



I wouldn't be so sure that you can run 6. 5 gals of water in 30 gals of fuel with over the counter emulsifiers. Remember that most emulsifying additives like redline for example, will only solubize their weight in water - so you'd have to add 6. 5 gals of redline to emulsify that much water. In the alternative fuel water-emulsified-diesel, the additives they use have specific chemistry designed for that fuel and are likely highly concentrated. I'm not sure why you'd want to try it to be honest