Is the Cummins really so mighty after all?

[john3976]

I find it hard to simply take statistics like that without any kind of references as to how the data was collected, sample size, or sources. In my opinion, that website is a long way from "proving" anything.



I'm not completely discounting it (the article was well written, at least), but I'll take it with a very large grain of salt. Any statistics coming from an aftermarket company whose interests lie in selling product (like Banks or The Power Shop) are highly suspect.



-Ryan

Here is some more information explaining warranty costs:



http://www.warrantyweek.com/archive/ww20050426.html

 

[john3976]

I added a poll that will run for 30 days, lets see what cylinders are having the most failures from those who have suffered injector failures. This should be interesting.

 

[rbattelle]

I must be missing the point here. None of the links you provided do anything to shore up the figures presented as facts by The Power Shop and Banks. In your last post you point out that the big 3 spend 3-5% of their sales on warranty repairs. Okay, how does that translate into anything that says the Cummins engines are not reliable?



You've got 2 aftermarket performance companies, heresay from a Dodge technician who says he's fixed "many" injectors, and a injection shop that recommends replacing the lift pump when you replace your VP-44. Apparently it's crystal clear to you how all those things can be weaved together into a coherent argument that the injector replacement rate on bone-stock Cummins common rail engines is 3%, but to me the entire argument seems subjective and highly disparate.



Which automotive trade magazines track warranty repair rates? I've checked Automotive News and can't find the data there... can you point me in the right direction? I've yet to read a AN article that actually gives the repair rates on any specific problem; they usually point out that the automakers are very secretive about such data.



Which trade pub are you referencing? I'd like to check it out.



On edit: now this has turned into a "which cylinder fails most often" thread? I can't even follow John's constantly changing argument! I don't even know what we're discussing anymore! What, exactly, are you trying to argue? That Cummins common rail engines are unreliable? That Dodge parts are unreliable? That the warranty repair rate for DC vehicles is 3-5% of sales? That the most common cylinder failure is [insert poll result here]? That DC is screwing people out of warranty repairs? You're all over the map!



-Ryan

 

[john3976]

I must be missing the point here. None of the links you provided do anything to shore up the figures presented as facts by The Power Shop and Banks. In your last post you point out that the big 3 spend 3-5% of their sales on warranty repairs. Okay, how does that translate into anything that says the Cummins engines are not reliable?



You've got 2 aftermarket performance companies, heresay from a Dodge technician who says he's fixed "many" injectors, and a injection shop that recommends replacing the lift pump when you replace your VP-44. Apparently it's crystal clear to you how all those things can be weaved together into a coherent argument that the injector replacement rate on bone-stock Cummins common rail engines is 3%, but to me the entire argument seems subjective and highly disparate.



Which automotive trade magazines track warranty repair rates? I've checked Automotive News and can't find the data there... can you point me in the right direction? I've yet to read a AN article that actually gives the repair rates on any specific problem; they usually point out that the automakers are very secretive about such data.



Which trade pub are you referencing? I'd like to check it out.



-Ryan

How about we just let the poll decide the numbers, you are correct the manufactures don't want the warranty numbers to get out yet they are required to provide warranty information, and yes they do their level best to make that information hard to figure out, but we can only go with what they release, so if they want it 100% correct then they need to be forthcoming as well.



Lets see if this Dodge Techs findings are matching what is going on at TDR with injector problems, we know of one truck that has had not one but two number three injector failures at TDR already.



Here is everyones chance to provide real data, not watered down data from DC.



One more thing go back to post number one and you will see I talked about injector failure in the opening post. The fuel system seems to be one of the weaker areas of these engines.



Or is it you are afraid of what the numbers from the poll will come back to reveal?

 

[amsoilman]

A lot of the vp-44 failures are the result of weak lift pumps, I posted a link to an article where someone did what DC is supposed to do, they diagnosed the problem and found out that the failure rates were the same for modded trucks as it was for stock trucks, they also found out that a weak lift pump could pass the DC test procedures yet not provide enough pressure to keep the vp-44 lubed and cool resulting in its failure. That was not any mods fault.



DC got away without honoring warranty work on that pump due to their own faulty testing procedures and blaming mods instead of fixing the real problem.



I think Cummins needs to step in and tell DC that they and they alone will provide the engine control computers. As it is now, I think DC is hurting the reputation of Cummins with their warranty games.



If Cummins had control of the engine computer back from DC then we could choose to have our trucks serviced at Cummins dealers once the warranty was out, as it is now, even when the warranty is out, the Cummins shops can't read the DC engine computer.

I wouldn't put ALL the blame on DC, as in our fleet of over 200 School Buses, which the majority have the Cummins Engines, the lift pumps and the VP-44's have been going out on them as well! Mine, a 2000 model 5. 9L 24V had the lift pump go at 74,000 and the VP-44 went just a short time later.



On the other hand, my 2003 Dodge/Cummins has never had a problem at all, however I only have 58,000 on it.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[MCummings]

Well, there it is John. As of the time of this post, 100% of injector failures are from teh #1 injector, and, so far, 100% of all #1 injectors have failed.





Merrick

 

[MMeier]

a little competetive boycotting if you will, might help encourage the "good" dealers to keep up the good work, and the "bad" ones to pull their heads from their ... .

Don't bet on it!

 

[2broke2smoke]

Quit Whining And Go Buy A Powerstroke

 

[john3976]

I wouldn't put ALL the blame on DC, as in our fleet of over 200 School Buses, which the majority have the Cummins Engines, the lift pumps and the VP-44's have been going out on them as well! Mine, a 2000 model 5. 9L 24V had the lift pump go at 74,000 and the VP-44 went just a short time later.



On the other hand, my 2003 Dodge/Cummins has never had a problem at all, however I only have 58,000 on it.



Wayne

amsoilman

You help to the make a point that it is a bad fuel system design and not boxes or programmers that is causing these failures, yet DC voids your warranty on the spot.



I doubt that your 200 hundred school busses all had performance boxes on them yet you have a high failure rate on them as well.



The reason DC is in the mix is because it is their trucks that they are denying warranty's on and we are talking about Dodge trucks.



I am interested in seeing what injectors are failing the most from the poll, this will give us some very good data and indications of what to really look for if it boils down to a couple of cylinders that lose injectors more then others.

 

[john3976]

Well, there it is John. As of the time of this post, 100% of injector failures are from teh #1 injector, and, so far, 100% of all #1 injectors have failed.





Merrick

Wow the poll had been up for all of almost an hour and you want to close the books as say only one injector has failed and it was on the number one cylinder therefore my worries are for nothing.



Lets see what the real results are, you may not like the poster, but this is a real chance to gather real information.



I understand that some of the numbers will be skewed just from injectors being replaced in the time honored throw parts at it until it is fixed and some injectors may have been replaced that did not need to be, but it will still give us an indication at any rate.



Why would you not want to know this information?



My truck has not needed any warranty work outside of two TSB's, one for front spring replacement and one for door seals tearing.



I have used power service in the fuel on 95% of my fill ups, once I tried seafoam. Maybe that is why I have had no injector problems, maybe I just have a good set of injectors or maybe one will go bad no matter what I do, my truck only has 18,000 miles on it as it is not a daily driver.

 

[klenger]

How about an option for no injector failures. I'm not sure what this poll is supposed to prove.

 

[DavidBurt]

It's a common rail diesel engine therefore all the injectors have the same fuel pressure all the time, I don't understand how which cylinder it is has any relevance. My 05 has 23000 on it, no mods, and hasn't been to the dealer once for repair.

Dave

 

[john3976]

It's a common rail diesel engine therefore all the injectors have the same fuel pressure all the time, I don't understand how which cylinder it is has any relevance. My 05 has 23000 on it, no mods, and hasn't been to the dealer once for repair.

Dave

This why I put up the poll, here is a Chrysler Tech and this is what he has seen and been replacing the most:



Brent D Feb 5, 2005 21:03



Ever since the release of the new Cummins common rail, I have been

repairing many of its issues with a new injector or two. A majority of

the injectors I have replaced were either in cylinders 3 or 4.

I just wanted to know from others if this is a common issue, or

maybe localized to the region I work. Any feedback on this issue is

appreciated, as I am looking for the cause of these failures rather than

the correction of them.

Brent

Master ASE and Gold Certified

Chrysler Technician

 

[RVTRKN]

So are the failures cause of chips. HUMMMMMMMMMM !

 

[john3976]

So are the failures cause of chips. HUMMMMMMMMMM !

Right every single failure ever to happen to the mighty Cummins engine installed in Dodge Pick Ups has been the result of some aftermarket part or chip or programmer, never has a Cummins engine ever experienced a failure while in stock condition.



Why lets go even farther, there has never in recorded history of the Dodge Cummins marriage been a fuel related problem with a Dodge Ram that was 100% stock.



Makes me wonder why DC is spending 2 billion dollars a year on warranty work when they are so perfect according to the experts in the Turbo Diesel Register forums!



You want to buy a bridge?

 

[TX Gooseneck]

DC is as bad as Ford on warranty now. . BUT, I have 243k on my 04. 5 and 96k on our 05 (no injectors) I replaced all 6 injectors on my 04. 5 at 160k when my #6 stuck wide open and had a fractured tip (I had a Quadzilla box on at the time of the problem) I now have 83k on my 80hp injectors (45k with the TST box). My truck runs fine, strong power, no oil leaks, great mileage and I still pull with it (delivered 6 Goosenecks in the past 2 weeks with it). Don't get me wrong, I've had problems, but try to make sure they don't happen again.



They need to get it together and quit sticking it to people on warranty issues.

 

[MCummings]

Wow the poll had been up for all of almost an hour and you want to close the books as say only one injector has failed and it was on the number one cylinder therefore my worries are for nothing.





I have used power service in the fuel on 95% of my fill ups, once I tried seafoam. Maybe that is why I have had no injector problems, maybe I just have a good set of injectors or maybe one will go bad no matter what I do, my truck only has 18,000 miles on it as it is not a daily driver.

Our truck has 39,000 miles, and we have used only two bottles of injector cleaner ever, and we have never taken it to the dealer. We have changed the fuel filter once, and the oil 3 times. All others, never. We tow heavy, up to 40,000Lbs. We don't have a problem. Our duramax, with similar maintanence didn't have problems untill the 100k mark.



-------

I don't see what the purpose of this poll is, or even this thread.



The rabbit trails this thread has gone down are ridiculous.

(not that I am any better, but you seem to be doing it on purpose when the answers aren't how you like)





Is the Cummins Mighty? Yes. Very strong engine. Good design. Has held together with the most power, and ahs stood teh test of time.



Are Bosch products any good? For the most part. Seems the Bosch Injectors, and injection pumps aren't the best thing since sliced bread.



Are Mopar products any good? Marginal at best.





So far I haven't seen the answer to the real question, "Is the Cummins really so mighty after all?", which has a twisted snear that only a politician could benefit from.





TDR is the pot, and you (john) have a stick that you like to use to stir, and stir.



[sarcasm] Thanks for all your help in finding the problem in a helpfull and uplifting manner[/sarcasm]



There are so many different ways you could word your posts to help us out, instead of being the devils advocate.





Merrick

 

[rbattelle]

Good post, Merrick.



-Ryan

 

[Parks]

I am moving this thread to a better suited forum. "General Diesel Topics". I do not think the 3rd Gen forum is the place.

This way you get more of a range of trucks.

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

I would suggest adding a selection that says: []no injector failures.



I've had a few problems with my CTDs but nothing that has persuaded me the competition is worth switching to. The only Cummins problems I've had are a shutdown selenoid and a starter for preventive maintenance.



signed,

Happy Camper