K&N Filters, Any proof they are better?

[Don M]

Im doing my KDP this next week.



Don~

 

[LarryB]

Originally posted by illflem





I personally only use dealer supplied parts, I feel that since they cost twice to five times more than other sources that they are at least that many times better.



You guys fix your KDPs yet?

Yea, what you said. that's my story and I'm stickin to it!





Yep, fixed five of the little moles. That jig... er. . fixture is quite slick. I made a quickie wrench for the fan nut and left it in there. Don't tell anyone I did it though. It's a real cob-job. Course you can't expect much for 5 min work. We only used it to tighten the fan anyway. we couldnt hold the pully enough to break it loose. My Pnumatic muffler gun with a pointy tip loosened all five right up though.



Thanks for keeping track of these Bill.

Larry

 

[redneckdr]

k 'n n's 'n stealers

Sly, i think if you find a k 'n n at a stealer, it will be old stock. most(?) stealers have quit selling the k 'n n because cummins does not approve it for the CTD. and, yes, my k 'n n filter for the CTD is in the right place--on a shelf in the shop, right next to the stock filter and box. i do like the BHAF. i added a "sock" to mine, as a prefilter. btw, i've checked mine after driving in hard rain. wasn't even damp. i plan to add water repellant and flame retardant to the sock when i get a rountuit.

 

[illflem]

I wonder if the real reason the stealers quit stocking the K&N is that K&N wouldn't give them a big enough price break so they could maintain their 400% profit margin. My exdealer stocked K&Ns for gasser applications, did Cummins tell them they shouldn't sell these also? Is there a magic reason that K&Ns work just fine in gas and motorcycle applications but fail when it comes to a diesel?

 

[RKelly]

Redneckdr raises a good point about the water.

I found a discusion link about bhaf filters, and learned that some had been recalled because water was getting to the elements, rotting them, and the pieces of rotted filter were getting sucked into the turbo. That's kind of bad. This was a "marine application" filter too.

But the filtration issue aside (and focussing on flow)... has anybody dyno-ed a motor, then changed to a "better" air filter, and redyno-ed ??

That would be some wonderful info to see, actual, rear wheel increase in hp and/or torque (and this is the kind of info I am not seeing on after market manufacturers web sites, and it's making me wonder why)... and yes, they provide flow charts, but what does that mean to the rear wheels? Probably no good data out there, just marketing hype... another head scratcher

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Here's a link to the "official" word from Cummins on K&N's: http://www.cummins.com/na/pages/en/....cfm?uuid=00060D72-0093-1B8D-BCF080C4A8F00000

Does DaimlerChrysler authorized the use of high-flow aftermarket air filters such as K&N with my Cummins engine?





No. DaimlerChrysler and Cummins do not recommend the use of increased flow air filters such as K&N, because they can allow contaminants into the intake that can ruin an engine (scoring the sides of the pistons, etc. )

 

[LarryB]

Notice Cummins does not recomend "any" increase flow air filters. Does your filter increase flow. If it does then Cummins does not recomend it. Get it off there fast!



I doubt they approve of that Powermax3 either. Better get that thing off there before you're struck down. Are those 275s approved? Hmmmm. . What are you thinking?



Here's the question again,

"K&N Filters, Any proof they are better?"



Now, everybody answers without understanding what is being asked because the word "better" is relative.



I personally am not too interested in getting 500,000 miles out of my engine. I am interested in the best performance/mpg for the least money. K&N is great for me.



Monty high-mile wants to leave his Cummins to his grand kids with cross hatch still in the cylinders. He never drives over 55 and changes oil every 1,000mi. Is the K&N for him? Absolutely not, worst piece of crap in the world.



I make my own decisions depending on what I am trying to achieve. I suggest the airfilter decision be made depending on the individual's own requirements.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Don't shoot the messenger! Just posting what Cummins said about it because Illflem asked. K&N's ads used to state that they didn't filter as well as stock paper type filters as well (haven't seen it in the ad for a long time, it was VERY fine print - you had to look for it). I have had a number of performance vendors tell me not to run a K&N, btw. Their concerns were getting oil into the intercooler reducing it's efficiency and getting it on sensors. I've run K&N's on ALL my gas engines prior to the Cummins - but I didn't expect to run any of them more than 150,000 miles, I'm hoping to get 500,000 out of this one. Originally the reason I didn't put a K&N on my truck is because I run it on the sand dunes and there was no way to put a "sand sock" over the stock filter (don't think they have one for the RE-0880 either). On my old trucks I would get some sand inside the air filter assembly until I started running the sand socks. I think they're made of nylon - and yes they restrict the air flow, but better that then getting sand into the engine. I ran the stock filter until the BHAF was "discovered".



-Steve

 

[LarryB]

Sorry Steve, it's just so easy to get wound up when we don't have all the facts. I wish someone could come up with valid numbers on flow and filtration comparisons between the available filters. Then we could all be right in the choices we make for ourselves.



Happy New Year

LarryB

 

[Don M]

Here is a few comparisons from the K&N website.



Link to independent test.





http://www.knfilters.com/images/factstab1.gif



Don~

 

[tlippy]

Alot of these boys would buy the elixir from the wagon master too, and pay into Jimmy Swaggarts' fund. There are some mentalities that promote products that they have bought without the slightest real world proof that the product does a damn thing better. It's just "Well, I bought it so it is the best - and I want more fools to do likewise". What really gets my goat are the boys who buy aftermarket boxes and then cry like babies when their A/T's and clutches start slipping - and then lie to DC to try to get them fixed under warranty. Velvet RideShackles and Pia Blue Lights are two of the worthless products I jumped on because of the hysteria and I might have just as well have sent the money to the "Save the Boso Fund". I do grudgingly admit that Amsoil is the premier marketier. They have suckered more folks into paying 4X for oil without any real world proof that an Amsoil truck is going to last any longer, run any faster, run any better or do anything better than my Delo truck - yet watch their following jump on this post with their bogus claims! Well, it's your money boys and I have to sort throught your BS just as you have to sort through mine. Happy New Year!!!!!

 

[LarryB]

Great Don.

It looks like it's a balancing act between flow and filtration. It appears to me that K&N gives the highest flow/filtration ratio for a given surface area. The BHAF may achive higher numbers by having more surface area. But the BHAF is so big it sits close to the turbo. A guy will need some sort of a SS Turboshield.



tlippy

Amen, If you want to play you should do it with your eyes open and take responsability.





Larry

 

[Wirenut]

Hey Ron, wanna free up a spot on the garage shelf? I'll make use of that K&N if you dont want it

 

[SlyBones]

Re: Debate will never end, but

Originally posted by FF1063

Which facts (opinions) are more applicable, Ours or Cummins ?



From the Cummins Engine Web site:



Does DaimlerChrysler authorized the use of high-flow aftermarket air filters such as K&N with my Cummins engine?



No. DaimlerChrysler and Cummins do not recommend the use of increased flow air filters such as K&N, because they can allow contaminants into the intake that can ruin an engine (scoring the sides of the pistons, etc. )

The interesting thing that I read in the Cummins statement is that it "can" allow "contaminants" into the intake.



It does not say that it does. It also does not say that is is dirt that it allows in. Its says comtaminants. Meaning it could be the oil, not dirt. From just this statement you cannot conclude that K&N does not filter as well.



What I read between the lines is that DC does not want to have to deal with warranty issues becasue some guy over oiled the crap out of this filter and it all got sucked down the intake. As even an K&N user like me will admit this "can allow comtaminants into the intake".



I dont see where this means that K&N filters or other oil media filters such as AFE and Amsoil dont filter as well, or with PROPER mainenance, "does" allow dirt or comtaminants into the intake.



Its simply a Cover-Your-A$$ blanket statement so they have another reason to deny us warranty.

 

[rrl989]

More K&N - Or Enough ?

Sorry fellow CTD owners, K&N Shareholders, I'm with Tlippy.



Every so often, we re-hash the same issue over and over and it

all comes down to the same argument. For the newbies, take Cummins advice or that of fellow TDR members. Your choice.



But before you spend $60-$70 on the filter, Tell K&N to re-design it properly seal in the air box it is sold for, the addition of sealant is BS. Strengthen the mesh to stop it from "flailing" around wildly upon lettting off the throttle, and just to make me happy, sell me one without all those pinholes in their patented layered media.



For now, I'll hold on to mine as a reminder of how easy it is "upgrade" and re-engineer an intake system that isn't broken.

I have a Factory 12V and No Mods - I'm not my own warranty station.



RonL

 

['956Wheel]

do the math

High flow and a decent micron rating can be had together by simply having more square inches of filter, and do not make the mistake of figuring square inches by dimensions only... you must know the COMPLETE surface area of the filter media. . as if you "unravelled" the pleats and measured the media area. You can do this without the sacrafice of a filter by measuring the depth and amount of pleats X the length of the filter.



I found a 5 micron rated filter (thats . 0002") that does not pull down the minder much, its a polyester media (waterproof) with inner and outer steel mesh as well as a foam prefilter.



These filter and fluid threads will outlast our trucks cause what you got is always thee best. . IMO. Easy guys, high blood pressure is not a good thing.



Best to all in the holiday season.

Mike

 

[LarryB]

OK, OK,



Let's talk about something we all agree on, synthetic oil versus regular kind.



Amsoil versus Delo?

 

[RichR]

Opinions Are Like:

RKelly,

I had a CTD for 5 years. Had a K&N Stock replacement. Silicon in oil went up,Turbo moves so much air it dried it out!Next went to The RE-0880 with thr pre-filter. Kept the pre-filter clean so never had to re-oil the RE-0880. But had to use foam air filter oil on pre filter becuz K&N oil would not stick. I hated the mess doing it,and on the fender and frame. Got tired of it. Dumped the truck. From what I read here I would try the BHAF. I had used K&N on gassers for years,now I'm going with paper in em. Less hassle and worry!

Rich Rozak

 

[sdalton]

I think someone sould have a poll on who has owned both the

K&N filters and BHAF's, and see who which one they preferred.



I have owned both, and without a doubt I will stick with my BHAF. I dont have a sheild, the BHAF doesnt get hot. I have felt it after a long highway run. I have driven in water as high as halfway covering up my radiator grill. BHAF was still dry. This truck is more responsive and the turbo spools up quicker. I have checked the blades of my turbo and they are still clean after many thousnds of miles with the BHAF.



As for the K&N: the turbo had greasy film on it after only a thousand miles of use. I could never keep it clean. This started to worry me. I tried to seal the edges with silicone, this helped a little. I was still getting the film on the turbo blades along with some grit. (NOT GOOD). I think the turbo was sucking the oil from the filter onto the blades, and the filter was so porous that gritty dust got in(not good).



I have done an oil analysis, and it didnt show any excessive silicone contaminants(dirt) with the K&N, but I know dirt and grit on the turbo blades when I see it.

I will stick with the BHAF without a sheild for now.

 

[RKelly]

RichR & SDalton, thanks for some good info (turbo pulls oil off of K&N, and turbo blades get messy). That's good to know, and is enough to steer me away from K&N.

There's certainly no shortage of opinions on this issue. I was kind of hoping for hard data, like dyno numbers with different filters, but I guess that does not exist (flow charts are not enough for me). The manufacturers are sure skirting the issue. They use customers quotes to say things like "I got an extra 3 mpg... " Customers quotes, obviousely, don't have to be factual, and that stuff makes me real nervous about what any real gains (if any) might be.

MegaCannon is $225 (on sale), Fram is $25. Heck, two MegaCannon's equals that PowerEdge I want.

Me tinks I dun opened a can-o-worms, and jumped right in. Gotta love it!

Or as the great philosopher Homer put it... ... ... Doughhh!