Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) lift pump, dealer "just doesn't get it"

[99guy]

2 weeks ago I purchased a 99 dually with the 5. 9 cummins. Yes I new about all the lift pump problems from doing research on forums during the last month. Well after driving the truck 2 weeks (great truck!) I ran it through my farm shop for service and filters. Guess what, after installing the fuel filter it was no surprise to find the 12v. lift pump to be bad, a dead duck. I called the local dealer to see if he could warranty the pump, yes but I would have to bring it in, couldn’t let me do the work. Oh, 87k on the truck. He explained the warranty problem would need diagnosed (I already explained the problem to him thoroughly) and any work done by skilled technicians ( I work on diesels nearly every day). Oh, well, I thought if they were paying for the pump, OK.



Using an “old trick” I managed to get the truck primed, running and back to the dealer so I wouldn’t have to pay his “tow charge”. He calls me tonight and explains there is nothing wrong with the truck, they “diagnosed” it he says, drove it, just hunkey dorey, he says. I asked what the low side fuel pressure was, he couldn’t say. I explained his diagnostic wouldn’t show a bad lift pump until the injection pump goes bye bye. I asked him if I came there, uncoupled the output line and energized the pump and it pumped no fuel, would he believe me then????? He has “trained diesel mechanics” he told me.



Well, I’m going there, I have to wait for Friday now, holiday you know. I intend to show this gentleman that the pump is totally dysfunctional, it should take me all of 5 minutes or less, with out 5 million dollars worth of “diagnostic” equipment that I wouldn’t trust him with any how. Trouble is, I don’t think I would trust this dealership to do the work at all now.



Any suggestions out there ?????

 

[redneckdr]

transfer pump

using a pressure gauge is probably the best. can make one with an A/C test hose, adapters and gauge. attach to the schrader valve on the VP 44. idle should be 13-15 or so, cruise 10-12, and WOT not below 8 PSI. if the test hose is long enough, tape to the windshield for the WOT run.

 

[Steve Campbell]

On the 99....

There are no "Schrader" valves. You can take out the rearmost 1/8th" plug on top of the filter housing and affix you test guage there. That port is pre-filter. The front one reads post filter pressure. I would suggest for long-term satisfaction, that you install a permanent pressure guage to the front plug location. If nothing else, it will tell you when to change your filter from now on.

 

[99guy]

Re: transfer pump

Originally posted by redneckdr

attach to the schrader valve on the VP 44.

where is that schrader valve on my 99, i didn't see it when i changed the filter the other day. loosened the banjo at the pump and put about a 1/4 lb. pressure in the tank to get her primed and back to the stealer. i have extra a/c test hose, i could make up a test gauge to help educate my "trained diesel mechanic"

 

[redneckdr]

schrader valves

they're on my 01. guess they aren't on the '99's?? don't know when they were added--2000???? banjo bolts with schrader valves can be interchanged, or put in a banjo with a port in it for adapter to a schrader for testing. sorry about the bad info. shoulda kept my mouth shut.

 

[99guy]

Re: schrader valves

Originally posted by redneckdr

they're on my 01. guess they aren't on the '99's?? don't know when they were added--2000???? banjo bolts with schrader valves can be interchanged, or put in a banjo with a port in it for adapter to a schrader for testing. sorry about the bad info. shoulda kept my mouth shut.

that's ok, i have two tapped ports on top the filter housing, i suppose if pull one of those plugs and cycle the ign switch and fuel isn't spurting out maybe that will convince my dealer the pump is bad though at this point nothing would surprise me!



i suppose one of those tapped ports is pre filter and one post, i'll have to look that over, guess when i install a permanant guage i might want it on the vp44 side of the filter.

 

[Pit Bull]

Welcome to the TDR. Nice to have another diesel mechanic on the site. Looks like based on your mileage you won't have to worry about warranty and that dealer much longer. Looks like a manual FP gauge would be an easy way to prove to the dealer that the lift pump is bad. That is what I did on my previous truck. I would want to have them pay for the new lift pump. Hate to leave money on the table. Good luck.

 

[shaft]

Ultimate Solution?

My solution to monitoring the lift pump and the fuel filter was to use two of the replacement banjo fittings that Geno's Garage sells that have the 1/8 NPT ports on them... ... I replaced the two Schrader valves (one on VP44 and the other on the filter housing) with them (mine is a 01 so it has the schraders).



I bought two grease gun hoses from the local parts store and a Westach 0-30 lb fuel gauge kit from Genos ($69) along with an additional sending unit ($32. 50). I used the grease gun hoses to remote mount the sending units so their weight wouldnt cause vibration fatigue of the banjos, ran the wiring into the cab and use a SPDT switch to select which sending unit to read on the gauge. Mounted the gauge in the cubby hole area of the dash using the plate that Genos will give you when you buy a kit if you ask... ...



Since your 99 doesnt have the schraders but you do have 1/8 NPT ports both pre and post filter on top of your filter housing you would not need the special banjo bolt adapters..... you can just screw in the grease gun hoses directly... ... . Or possibly just screw the sending units in directly (depending on room) as I dont have a 99 to look at handy

 

[Shovelhead]

'99 Guy this is how I set up my pre-filter guage on my '99.

If you use the other port you'll measure post-filter. Fuel Pressure guage tap

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Welcome to the site! Here's a couple of posts that I've made on how I dealt with the lift pump problems I had (I went through 4 in 60,000 miles and now have 55,000 on the current one ): I only had the dealer replace it once, it was too much of a hassle to live without my truck for a few days at a time so I bought one myself from Cummins and they covered those on their warranty and just exchanged them. One dealer refused to do anything about it even when I showed him the gauge (it would go to zero just revving the motor up) and what the book called for as a spec. He said as long as the truck was running there was no problem and they wouldn't do anything about it .



Installing a fuel pressure gauge - your 99 would be exactly the same as my 98. 5



Installing a pusher pump

 

[99guy]

You guys are great! Thanks for all your posts. Sometimes in this day and age I begin to think most everyone I end up dealing with are "blundering idiots" and then after joining this group I realize once again there are a lot of good folks out there. Again , thanks and have a great new year. After finding this group I really enjoy reading all your posts, think I'll hang around for awhile!

 

[24VChev]

I am not sure if this was covered or not but another easy way to show the dealer that the lift pump is dead is to open the water drain and bump the starter. If you do not hear the pump running and no fuel coming out of the water drain hose then pump is dead! Even if you can hear the pump running they can fail internally and still not push any fuel.





Malcolm

 

[turbo torque]

Mine went out about 45k. My guage would intermitently fall to 1 or 2 lb. without working it. Service manager new nothing about pressure #'s. Said theres no drivability problem, therefor theres no problem Said it would'nt be covered anyway caus I was over 30k. (REAL COCKY) I was irate,called Detroit, and told them I had a problem w/lift-pump & dealer, they were more concerned with the dealer problem. He put me on hold while he called my dealer, when he returned he said I could take it in anytime for lift pump warranty& apolagized for my inconvience. Well I went right in, he lost his cockyness& held his pathetic head. When asked if I was ready for the work, I said no-way, if you can't diagnose a problem I would'nt want your f~^*ing monkeys under my hood! When asked what would make me happy,I told him give me the pump & 1/2 hour labor. Ya see I know the entire staff there, salesmen,parts & service manager, Have even had the owner up in my ultralite. I have a small shop & have an account there& this is small town. Well to make a long story short my labor rate went up for that job. I wish you luck, you have to stand your ground and be persistant. If I can be of any help pm me or e-mail -- email address removed -- I even told the owner I was ready to order up a new one, but realizing I would have to deal with that fu ing service manager there was no way I could buy it from him. P. S. The service manager is now turning wrench when he's not on his ass. Once Again good-luck" and be PERSISTANT. Bill

 

[redneckdr]

schrader valves

99 guy, after making a fool of myself once already, i'm reluctant... ... ... but, here goes. schrader valves--male end are available on a 1/8" NPT male fitting which you could install in the ports in the top of your fuel filter housing. then with a temporary gauge setup, you'd be ready to check both pre and post filter pressures. pressure does drop across a dirty filter (duh!), and checking pre and post filter pressures is an easy way to find out if the filter is super dirty.

 

[HVAC]

Been A While For This Speach

Gentlemen,



Your dealer is the enemy, get used to it. They are not there to help you, they are there to protect their bottom line. This means they are interested in selling you as many extended warranties as you are gullible enough to pay for. But when it comes time for some helpful guidence from them you might as well be pleading your case to a rattlesnake. Yes of course this is not 100% the case, just the majority.



The other problem is the dealers do NOT know what they are doing. Again, this is not 100% accurate. My apologies to Bob4x4, and Clay in Morgan UT. Those ARE people you want under your hood. They are just to few and far between.



So, do not purchase the extended warranty, save your money. If you have a problem, take the truck to Cummins and use the $1500 you saved from not buying the ex warranty to pay Cummins for their labor.

 

[jbone]

Guys, Might want to check out Alan Reagan's post on 'low pressure', but pump still working... . Changed might out yesterday, and sure enough the studs on the pump were lose, repaired per Alan's suggestion and now have good spare!! (I also lock-tited those studs)... ... ... . R, J. B.



Yes, I realize that doesn't answer the mail here!!

 

[99guy]

UPDATE



Went to dealership this a. m. and installed MY combo vac. / fuel pressure gauge. Hooked into port on top of fuel filter housing. Started truck, gauge went to 4" vacuum ( as I already knew it would ).



Went inside, invited service manager to come take a look. Hmmmmm, ha said, didn't know it would run with a bad lift pump. Mechanic that certified this truck to be AOK 2 days earlier was unavailabe today. Service manager advises they will re-evaluate the situation, call me in the morning.



Life sure is interesting ... keep ya posted.



p. s. - hope 4" vac means my VP44 still OK!

 

[HVAC]

Re-evaluate?

I wonder what there is to re-evaluate? Cut and dried. Done deal.



Your a brave lad to be driving that rig with the LP toasted.

 

[DBuchheit]

My second lift pump died today (34K miles). No problem from the dealer, but they had to get approval from DC to order a new one. According to them, that is SOP now. The fact that I have a fuel pressure gauge probably cut through a lot of "stuff". At 2 PSI it's hard to ignore the problem.

 

[99guy]

Re: Re-evaluate?

Originally posted by HVAC

Your a brave lad to be driving that rig with the LP toasted.

No, not driving the truck, it's been setting on the stealers lot now for days, I'm driving the old "backup" ... and re-evaluate, I don't know. Stealers way of saving face maybe, I'm not giving up though till I get my warranty LP!