Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Lift Pump Transferees ?

[FDNYMOPARGUY]

I just relocated my lift pump to the frame rail just ahead of the fuel tank with the Vulcan Relocation Kit from Geno's. I went with the factory lift pump for price and availability concerns. Pressure at idle is, I guess (16 pound guage) 17 psi. Cruising is 15 psi (2 psi less than idle), WOT 13 psi with EZ at level 1. Haven't tested with EZ set higher yet. Yes, I am very happy with these pressures.

What I really want to know, from anyone who has relocated the lift pump - factory, FASS, Glacial, or any other type, has there been any problems with pump operation or fuel flow in cold temperatures? I know it sounds a little strange, but that 1100 pound heater the lift pump was mounted on previously may have helped things during the cold. I realize that after a few minutes, heated fuel is returning to the tank and warming things up. Has anyone had the need for a heater at the relocated lift pump?

 

[JCyrbok]

I run a FASS plumbed straight to the VP with no heater in Michigan. Pump is back by the tank. As long as U keep some anti gel in ur fuel in the winter I dont think u will have any problems. I have been good down to -15 overnight unplugged, with out problem.



Hope this helps

J-

 

[Schlickenmeyer]

Thanks for posting that. . I wonder about that one myself. I chose to stay with the stock location when the new LP went in (engine was out, might as well).

Have thought about the relocate since my friends 3rd gen lost it's LP last week.

Told him to get a line kit and a 2nd gen pump. beats the intank crap from DC.



Would like to hear from folks who get -20 or so on this. Minnesota has it's moments.

 

[FDNYMOPARGUY]

The last time my lift pump went out, I passed on the warrentee in-tank pump and did it myself and put the pump back on the motor. I would have voided my warrentee if I did the relocation then. Now, I am my own warrentee station. Wish me luck.

 

[WTBurke]

JCyrbok,

Thank you, I too have the same location set-up and I've looked into the Racor heater but the price is a bit steep for only occasional low temps.



It's good to hear from some as you who has not had trouble.



It's funny to examine the factory set up... because if you 'gel-up' from the tank to the wimpy factory pump and then deliver the gooo-wax to the factory filter with heater... . how the heck could that work if the system is already gelled and wax-up from cold temperatures? The factory pump is a 'vane' style pump and the clearence of those little vanes would certainly not slide back and forth in the impeller if the fuel is waxed.



Further 'guessing' on the factory design... . did DC expect the partial return line that pukes back into the fuel modual bucket in the tank to have enough residual warmth to over come extream negative temperatures?



Sorry to ramble on here guys... . but honestly... the DC fuel delivery system in our trucks is the lamest thing I've ever experienced from every design point.



William

 

[JCyrbok]

WT,



I was initially worried about gelling/waxing with out a heater and actually looked at some of the Rancor heaters, but decieded to see what would happen with just the pump and no heater. 2 years and no problems at all. Only thing that I notice is that fuel pressure will be higher after a long sit in the cold, most likely due to higher vicosity of cold fuel, but never any problems with the pump. I run Stanadyne performance in every tank year round. It has anti gel/wax/ice in the formula. Fuel pressure will be back to normal after about 15 minutes of by-passed fuel from the VP and the FASS returning to the tank.



I have always wondered about DC choice of the stock lift pump and location. If you look on Carter's site and find the spec info on the stock pump (which was made by Carter) it says that the pump should not be mounted more than 3 feet from the fuel source. On my short bed quad it is like 6-6 1/2 from the tank to the pump. It is also a pump style that works better in a pushing application verus pulling the fuel like it is set up as, but I digress, LOL. Think of all the trouble they could have avoided doing what most has done and mounted the pump back by the pump!



Hope this helps,



J-



PS: how do u like your Vulcan Draw Tube? does it make a difference in your experience? I was looking at it online the other day after seeing some posts here about it. Was it a pain to install or pretty easy? I was gonna lift my bed to work on my stock module but if the Vulcan works good I will just go that route. Thanks. .

 

[JMetzger]

JCyrbok

I would like the web site that you got the Carter spec from. Not doubting you, just want for my own use. Thanks

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I have had a Carter pusher pump (4600) located at the frame as close to the tank as possible since the truck was new - stock LP was in original location until this past summer. I occasionally experienced cavitation problems, most likely due to the additives I use in my fuel that undoubtedly alters fuel characteristics and contributes to fuel foaming.



ANYWAY, I have had no further cavitation issues after relocating the stock LP down on the frame next to the pusher already there - fuel PSI is as good as, or slightly better than before the move.



As to issues in cold winter climates - I qualify, and actually think that the relocated pumps would tend to provide their own small degree of fuel heating from the current draw and friction of the motor - as many here are aware, the fuel flow in these pumps actually runs THRU the motor itself, as well as the pump. SO, if anything, I would expect an improvement in resistance to fuel gelling in these relocated pumps.



OH, and I am still running my original OEM LP, as well as the original pusher, at 47K miles...

 

[WTBurke]

J-



I too follow the same procedures with anti-gelling additives when I'm traveling outside of CA. And YES, I too have read the specs from Carter regarding their pump location suggestion... it's amazing that DC did and does all the wrong things.



As for the Vulcan modification it is worth while for several reasons. Eric Cordova is very helpful and he has good stock on the JIC fittings to make everything sweet. I dropped my tank as I have a shell on the bed. Running the tank low and then just taking the output into a small line and activating your FASS will expel the last 6 or 7 gallons very quickly into axillary fuel canisters.

The job of loosening the two belly-straps is very easy and the tank weighs nearly nothing when you drop it down. There is the simple frame cross member with four bolts but, this is no problem R/R



The modification of the factory fuel canister as per Eric's instructions is straight forward, the expensive aspect is the 'step-drill' that is used in punching holes in the plastic body of the fuel canister. It's a clean way to drill the holes as the plastic is brittle and will melt if improper drill speed is not maintained. The 'step-drill' suggestion is 'truly' the clean way to go.



Caution in handling the fuel canister as the fuel-level resistor has the long float arm attached to it in a very special way. Stressing this contact point can cause extreme added expense.



Removing the fuel canister has the very large plastic ring torqued onto the tank with a large rubber gasket. I ordered my gasket at my local dealer for around $7 bux... . it was not necessary as the gasket has ample crush to be re-torqued several times. (removal is a wooden block and hammer at the knock-off points)



The only aspect that requires finess is the exact length that you cut the draw-straw. Place your new Vulcan aluminum bulk-head in place on top of the fuel canister head and observer how this 'tube' will bottom out into the bottom of the fuel canister. If you drill your new holes correctly the (tube or draw-straw) will exit the bottom of the canister and protrude to the very bottom of your fuel tank enabling it to draw fuel from the very bottom of the tank. I spent much time here... my distance is less than 1/4"



In this procedure you will also remove all the fine 'silk-mesh' screening that was formerly the 'pre-filtration' of the factory fuel canister (boy. . will this stuff allow a great breeding location of allege or wax-up during cold temperatures)... none the less you will modify this entire 'in-put' point for fuel distribution. This brings us to an additional observation... . as the instructions indicate, Eric has pointed out that running low on fuel in the future after this modification could present some difficulties. Some of it can be avoided by careful distinction of "how long" or "short" did you cut your draw-straw?



The factory unit was spaced above the bottom of the tank within the actual fuel-canister being a semi 'capture' chamber and the return-un-used fuel being dumped back into the canister with the 'baffling chamber' effect will allow you to feed fuel in a 'low-tank' situation and helped along with this fine silk-screen mesh to maintain a 'quenched' semi submerged factory draw tube.



Don't let me scare you away from what Vulcan has done here. Eric has fixed the 'other' issues we have with the factory system.



At 1/8th tank level we have what 6 gallons? Now keeping this in mind, if we have a draw-straw at the very bottom of the tank without the aid of 'liquid-baffling' at the draw-point there is the "slosh" effect of fuel possibly not being located where we want it during steep down grades (when wheeling off road), sudden stops and rapid acceleration circumstances.



I realize you will need to hold all of these components in your hands and look them over carefully to concur with my observations.



None the less, Vulcan has created a fix for a very lame issue that ShortShift has lamented to. The new set up also lends hand to a very easy future installation of a RACOR heater if we elect to do so.



Re-installing the tank is a breeze with the new fittings at the top of the fuel canister (I painted my belly straps black for the finished look) and the frame cross member is also easy but, I do have pneumatic air driven tools for speed.



So... . I guess it comes down to this... . if we fill up at just below a 1/4 tank and not wait for the 'low fuel' idiot light I think the Vulcan system is very good. If I want to tip-toe around with no wild 'angle excursions' I could suck this tank down to less than a gallon... . and you could not do this with the factory canister.



I'll shut up now guys... . sorry for the long answer.



William

 

[JCyrbok]

JMetzger,



As I recall I just did a web search for Carter and got their corporate website. Then looked up the LP that was being used in our trucks and there was specs listed for the particular pump. I will qualify this by saying that this was about 4 years ago, which was when I had lost my first stock LP on my truck.



Hope this helps and I apologize if their site is different now,



J-

 

[JCyrbok]

Thanks WT, sounds like a pretty easy/cheap upgrade if you take your time. Thanks for the info. Looks like I'll most likely do this one in the spring, as I dont have access to heated garage space, and it is about 20degs out today and hasnt even gotten to be cold yet



Thanks



J-

 

[JR2]

My stock lift pump has been on the frame rail by the tank for 4 years, no problems to date. Truck has been started at -20 several times with no problems.

 

[WTBurke]

J-

You are very welcome and yes a controlled environment for this kind of work is really a must. I'm sure you'll find the Vulcan 'draw-straw' mod excellent.



Gary-K7GLD

The Carter pumps do not have fuel flowing inside of them. Yes the fuel is contained within the fluid section as the vane pump assembly manipulates the liquid within its enclosed cavity. The armature shaft that drives the impeller wheel is very small and the amount of heat that might be transferred is next to nothing. I would find the caloric heat transfer of no substantial value regarding this design and the fact that 35 gallons of diesel at 20 degrees F is a large heat sink for a very long time. Be it current draw from the armature and the miniscule resistance of the sleeve bearings supporting the vertical armature there is no heating benefit to be found in the transfer pump assembly.



William de-WA6Q

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

The Carter pumps do not have fuel flowing inside of them.

WELL, you could be right - and maybe I just IMAGINED that the pressure valve seen in the pump bulkhead separating the rotor and motor section allowed fuel flow thru the motor...



But I don't think so - the pump base on the left clearly displays the bypass valve inside the motor cavity on one side, and the fuel inlet hole into the motor section over on the right side - fuel flows in a loop from outlet side of the rotor section, up thru the hole into the motor section, and then out the displayed pressure regulating valve, flow rate depending on operating PSI at any point in time:



#ad




You see, I'm not guessing or assuming - I've actually taken one apart to see for myself...



And, on a test bench, there appears to be a pretty healthy flow that actually does get routed thru the motor section thru the bypass valve - especially at lower fuel demands and lower engine speeds...

 

[WTBurke]

Gary,

I have also opened one of these pumps. The original unit in its design is a hermetically sealed unit and does require some skill to dissect for internal inspection.



If what you are saying to me is that diesel fuel is entering an area of a direct current motor where an armature and brushes are in action and lit up with voltage... ! I do not recall seeing such an action?



In other words... you state that the armature is actually submerged in a bath of diesel fuel while it is operating?



Sparks or flame plus a volatile accelerant in a closed environment sounds like a deadly combination... . I think its called a BOMB!



I would find it very helpful if you could explain to me how this could be... . I'm at a total loss to understand this.



William

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

William, I not only explained it, I provided a PICTURE!



Yes, they are hard to dissect - and doing so destroys them - but DO believe what you see, the fuel DOES actually, physically flow THRU the motor section, armature, bearings, brushes and ALL!



And I haven't had any of mine blow up yet... :-laf

 

[WTBurke]

Gary,

I just got off the phone with Cummins West in Redding California, after I waited for the guys in the shop to stop laughing.



Ricky opened the Carter spec sheet provide for Cummins regarding this transfer pump and you sir, are misinterpreting what you are seeing.



There is no fuel flo in or around this armature while it is operating correctly.



If there was any fuel it would weep through the electrical terminals and at that point the unit would most likely quit operating.



Further more... . I for one, want to stay away from a pump that would have these characteristics it is logically unsound.



William

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Gary,

I just got off the phone with Cummins West in Redding California, after I waited for the guys in the shop to stop laughing.



Ricky opened the Carter spec sheet provide for Cummins regarding this transfer pump and you sir, are misinterpreting what you are seeing.



There is no fuel flo in or around this armature while it is operating correctly.



If there was any fuel it would weep through the electrical terminals and at that point the unit would most likely quit operating.



Further more... . I for one, want to stay away from a pump that would have these characteristics it is logically unsound.



William

That's OK William - have it your own way - and so can the "experts" at Cummins - I seriously doubt the existence of any specific documentation they have access to that displays the inner workings of the OEM LP's - or that any of them has had one apart as I have - but that's OK too... :-laf



Fact is, it was just BECAUSE *I* didn't believe it myself that I took the one apart that I did - and the "evidence" is right there in front of your eyes, as it was mine. NOW, ask yourself this simple question - we all KNOW there is a PSI bypass valve built into the LP's - I pointed it out in the above picture - IF the fuel DOES NOT flow thru the pump, perhaps you or those Cummins "experts" would like to explain exactly WHERE that bypassed fuel DOES flow? :-laf :-laf



Here's a closer shot of the fuel bypass ports, from the MOTOR side of the housing:



#ad




The opening seen on the right opens DIRECTLY down into the outlet port and fuel flow from the rotor section!



This is all in fun William - but whether YOU, OR those "experts" believe it or not, bypass fuel DOES flow thru the motor section...



OH - and thanks for the head's up - I'll be sure to avoid the Cummins shop (and experts!) in Redding if I ever happen to need service while out in that area. :-laf

 

[JCyrbok]

Gary and WT,



I am in no way trying to stir the pot here as I have never had one of the Stock LP's cracked all the way open ( I do have one on my bench that will be as soon as I can figure out how to do it w/o a trip to the ER ), but when u guys did crack the LP's open, was there indeed fuel in the area of the armature? I would think that once there is fuel there it would always be present there, right?



How did u guys get them open with out 1) dynamite 2) losing a finger/eye/toe or another apendage/items I may want to keep on me?



Thanks



J-

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

On my pump that I sacrificed for the cause, I used a bench grinder to grind away the place where the motor housing crimps to the lower rotor casting - and when you open the 2 resulting halves, the risidual fuel that hasn't already drained out of the motor pours out - and there's CLEAR evidence inside that there has been steady fuel flow thru the motor section, among other things, it as clean as new, NO dusting of wear or brush particles, etc. ,



Oh, and remember, there's that open passage/port I pointed out between the rotor outlet and the motor - so MOST fuel will simply drain out of the motor section when the pump is removed from the engine and lines - and GUESS where those particles DO end up in normal operation after being flushed thru the motor by bypass fuel flow...



The fuel filter!



Pays to have a good one, and changed regularly too, right!



OH - the pump I destroyed was given to my by a member here who had well over 100K miles on it - look here at the brushes:



#ad




And of course, how CLEAN it is in there after a steady diesel flow thru it!