Off Roading Lifting a dually

[CumminFast]

I bought a '96 3500 4x4 and plan to jack it up as high as possible. Will a 38x12. 50 fit on the rim? What about a 38x11? The tread width is only 10" on that tire and 11" on the 12. 50 width. Anybody know of another brand besides super swamper that makes that size tire?

 

[y-knot]

I think before you set out to "Jack it up as high as possible", you should educate yourself on the various lift kits that are available for your truck. Also there are many issues that must be dealt with when lifting any truck, the higher you go the more the issues. In my opinion 37-38" tall tires do not belong on a stock 6" wide rim. There are companies that do offer wider then stock wheels or they will modify your existing wheels. The problem with 90% of all lifts is people shoot for height, with a complete disregard for function or safety. You sound like you would fit into that 90%, if so you should reevaluate your current situation. Write out what you have to spend, and then write out what it is you want to achieve. Somewhere between the two extremes, reality will set in and you will have to make allowances to both. The number one thought threw-out the planing process should be function and safety. It does no one any good to jack up a truck and have it not work, and it sure wouldn't be worth the investment if it got you or someone else injured or killed. The fact is, nothing is going to happen cheap, it cost money to do anything to these trucks. So you need to get a workable, realistic budget together, and proceed from there. Remember... Stupid hurts.

 

[EricBu12]

Skyjacker makes a number of good stuff. Alot of time and effort to produce something that will work good on and off the trail



Here is a search on a 94 3500. The picture is not a dually but it does say it is for a 94 3500.....



http://www.skyjacker.com/products-s...E&vmodel=RAM 3500 PICKUP&partnumber=D752KS-DX



Heres a 4. 5" lift it is also a good kit



http://www.skyjacker.com/products-s...GE&vmodel=RAM 3500 PICKUP&partnumber=D452K-SX



Here is a company that makes a suspension system that is awsome. It is not high, but it is like rally or baja inspired for our dodges. .



http://www.trexengineering.com/dodge.htm



Bottom line is skyjacker only has up to 7" kits for that year. Mostly due to R & R and safety issues. Now on the tires, get what will fit for that 4. 5 or 7" lift without hitting on articulation and you will do good. If you are not going to go deep mudding or climbing over 3' rocks, then either one of those systems will give you good drivability and great function off-road without being too top-heavy. If you jack it up to the sky, thats what will happen and the first hard turn or evasive manuver you do, you'll roll, BELIEVE IT. anyway, you don't need to be sky-high to go everywhere...



My stock hight 01 2500 did great on 285 AT tires on a trail called "top of the world" in moab. It was a moderate trail and a 4. 5" lift with larger tires would have done a little better but not much... .

 

[CyberRanger]

I have to agree w/ both these gentleman. Anything beyond 7" will have to be custom. Don't forget that any lift beyond 2" will require longer driveshafts, longer brake lines, longer shocks, etc. , etc. You also have to factor in the effective gear ratio created by the oversized tires. If you go big enough on your tires, you'll have to change out both front & rear ring & pinion.



One issue many people also forget is that it probably won't fit in your garage any longer unless you have a "shop. " Even a mildly lifted Dodge can challenge an 8' door.



Depending on the tires you choose, you don't have to go huge on your lift. We are fitting 36" Denman Coyotes on our 2002 this week without any lift. They are narrow, which is what allows us to do it.



Here's an example...



I run the same size 36" tire on my '71 Chevy K-20 (in fact the Denman's are ON my Chevy right now until the Buckshots come in next week. ) The Radial Buckshot Mudders are a 305/85R16 which is a 9. 5" tread & an 11" carcass width on a 6" rim. I run a 4" lift w/ virtually no fender trimming. A buddy of mine has an identical Chevy, but must run an 8" lift w/ major fender trimming to run a 14. 50 wide tread, 36" tire on a 10" rim. I don't have the u-joint or steering issues he has, nor do I have the spring wrap & tire hop problems either. Same height tire--5" narrower tire on a 4" narrower rim & no where near the complications & the "four-wheelability" is close to the same (now there is a new word!). In fact a 4" lift will actually have better wheel travel than a 7" lift unless you go to an exotic coil spring/4-link setup. You frequently can't "droop" a tall lift any more than it is at a sitting height due to u-joint binding.



More lift doesn't always equate to "better" or "more". There is a point of diminishing return.

 

[CumminFast]

Well I don't care about functionality... all I care about is looks. There is no way I would ever put any of my trucks in mud... it ruins everything. I just need to know what tires that are 38" tall that will fit. I have seen it done before. I saw some kind of military tire on a 3500 that had a great load rating and was very narrow and on a stock rim. I am going to fit these w/ a 5" lift. Do those coyote denman tires come in narrow 38"?

 

[CyberRanger]

No, if you can find it, the 36" is the largest. It is an "All Purpose" tire akin to an "All Terrain" & not aggressive. The only tire I know of that is that tall & narrow is a Super Swamper TSL Bogger, 38. 5x11. 00-16, but it is a 6 ply tire & an 8" rim is recommended although you could probably run it on a 6". Most very tall tires do not have great load ratings. It is not a good street tire. It is noisy & rough.



You can however, get the Radial Buckshot Mudder in a 36" (305/85R16) & it carries a Load Range E rating & it does well on a 6" rim.



Military tires are horrible on the road & most have speed ratings of 60 mph or less. Any faster than that & they tend to overheat & self-destruct. The Michelin XZL (or somethin' like that) is such a tire. They are extremely expensive--to the tune of $350+ EACH!

 

[HillCountrykid]

305's are 12~12. 5" wide, and do not work well on a 6. 5 " wheel. I run them on 8" wheels and would'nt go any more narrow. Every manufacturer that I know of lists them for 8 or 8. 5" wheels and bigger.



If you're going with a 5" lift , then Super Swamper makes a few 35/10 and 35/10. 5 tires. They might not fill the wheel well up as much as a 37", but they don't make anything bigger than 35's that are skinny enough to run on 6. 5" wheels. In my opinion 11" is really pushing it. Plus you'll need a huge spacer in the rear with real wide tires.



They don't have to have a real high weight rating since you don't plan on towing with it I'm sure. Just as long as they have a 2500 lb. or so rating for the weight of the Cummins.



Brian

 

[dlange]

My truck fits in my regular garage door by exactly 3/4 inch. And it has a 5 inch skyjacker with 35's. They will fit, as long as you take your time.

 

[CyberRanger]

Any other 305s other than the Coyote's or the Buckshots I wouldn't run on a rim narrower than 8". But the way the casing is made & with the 85 profile you can get by w/ it & it works well. You couldn't do it on a 75, 70 or 65 profile tire. The specs say a casing size of 12", but in reality its closer to 11½". The "approved rim" is an 8"x16". The 6" rim pulls the sidewall in so it is less susceptible to damage offroad & also allows the tire to be aired down better w/o the bead coming off the rim. Members in our 4x4 club have run them for many, many years this way w/ great success.

 

[CumminFast]

My stock dodge 2500 rim is 6" wide right? I have 315s on those and they wear pretty decent. I saw a truck w/ those michelin military tires and the truck looked fantastic! Those tires have a good load rating. Where can I find those at? Where can I find a wider but cheap wheel? I don't care about ride and the truck already has 4. 10 gears so I think it will be perfect.

 

[BigUgly]

CumminFast;

I've been looking into some of the same areas as have you. Here's what I learned. If you want to go high, like over 4"s, it's best to replace the short arms with much longer ones. There are two kits that provide for much longer control arms, Skyjacker and (Formaly) Dick Cepek. The DC arms seem to be better for going high. The kit they come with is set up for 6", but many folks buy just the arms and get taller springs. Some folks buy the DC arms and the Skyjacker 7" coils and call it a day, others get the DC 6" coils and a 2" spacer... . the arms are good for something like up to 15" of lift, but I think most stick to 10" of lift or lower. I've found great info at www.pavementsucks.com

As to the military tires..... I also looked into them. The one's you seem to be thinking or are the 12. 5R20s, they're about 40" tall and narrow, like 12". They are a Radial tire with a load Range F (I think). They are only Speed Rated for 55 MPH and are made of a very soft rubber compound, folks love them and their bigger brothers off road, but they don't seem to wear very long on the road, some folks are seeing 20K miler out of a set. Fortunatly, you can buy them cheaply at places such as www.usa6x6.com . The bad thing is that they are tires that go on a 20" rim. Yes, you too can be rollin' on dubs'. Usa6x6 makes wheels for these tires so you can go that route, or I think most other 20" civilan wheels will work with these tires, however the larger military 20" tires use a diffrent bead.

Make sure you check the lift laws in Ga.

If you want to keep the dually look and still look good, here's what I would do..... Piece together a 7" lift using DC's Control Arm kit, the Skyjacker 7" Coils and extreme steering kit, Get an adjustable Track Bar, get some custom rear leafs made up so you don't have to deal with Lift Blocks, use a Skyjacker T-Case re-indexing ring to help the Driveshaft angle (at least the front), longer brakelines... ... etc... Now, you're ready for the wheels and tires... . get thineself 4 38. 5X11. 00X16 Interco Boggers for the back with some nice dually wheels, up front you can either run the same tire/wheel up front or switch to a wider 38. 5, either the new 38. 5X15X16 Bogger or perhaps a standard Interco TSL. Now, if you wish to go to wider tires out back, just remember that all you have to do is keep it under 110" wide (I think), down at the Suncoast event a few months back, there was a Ford SuperDuty lifted to the sky and running 6 42X15X16. 5 Interco TSLs, set up as a dually, it was something like 109" or similar. All it took was regular SRW wheels and a big honkin adapter between the rear two wheels.

Now, go forth, and LIFT!!!!

Josiah

 

[csutton7]

I agree with Big Ugly by going with the Dick Cepek or Skyjacker or a mix and match(I'm doing this to some extent)(I'd go with the Dick Cepek lift if I was to do it over again, bought the 5" skyjacker 4 years ago) you might get the 38's to work--if not add a 2" body lift also and then you can--there's a body lift group buy going on at http://dtw.truckmoxie.com/groupbuys.ten until the end of the month-(you won't find a body lift for your year diesel, but just order the for your year and pretend it's a gasser--there's a few guys who've done this and made it work)--you don't have to get different driveshafts if you lift your truck to these heights--the kits come with blocks and t-case lowereing abilities to use you existing shafts----chris

 

[CumminFast]

Thanks for that info Josiah, but that type a lift of what your thinking about is way too much money for me. I already have one money pit in my hp truck, and I just want this one to look good. I am going to get a cheapass 5" lift. I am not tellin yall which one because I know yall hate it. I saw a red dually at Jeff's shop last month that had the 38" Michelin XL tires on it and what looked like only 3" spacers in the front and blocks in the back. I found 6 michelin XL 1100x16 tires for $900. I am going to go get them this saturday hopefully.

 

[BigUgly]

Whatever floats your boat man. Now that I think about it, the lift I talked about is set up for flex, you won't need that on the street. Actually, piecing together the lift that way saves money, there was a post on the Pavementsucks site that went through a kit like that with the prices, was cheaper than I though it would be. Good luck with the mich tires.

Josiah

 

[CumminFast]

Piecing it toether saves money? I thought that would be more expensive. Actually, today I broke down and bought the skyjacker kit. I got the basic kit for $1070 including the shocks and shipping. What are you thinking of running? Would spacers on top of the springs work? and then add a 2" block in the back? Or would I have to get a 7" block made? Are you going the coil over route? That looks bad as hell. I wish I had the money to do that right now. Also will I need spacers w/ the michelin tires?

 

[BigUgly]

My plans are for the DC long Arm Kit, and either the DC 6" coils and some 36" tires or the 6" coils and a set of 2" spacers to be able to run 38s. From there it's just a Skyjacker extreme steering correction, a DT track bar, a skyjacker T-case re-indexing ring, a set of Skyjacker brake lines (or something custom made), some long shocks (maybe duals up front) and a set of larger rear springs, hopefully the same lift as the front, I think I'm the only guy that would like to still keep the rear higher. That should be it. All together, I'm looking to spend more than you, but the long arm kit by itself is like $600, similar amounts for the rear springs... . it all adds up.

Yes, you can run a coil spacer on top of the coils, but if you're thinking about doing it with the stockish length arms, be ready to have the axle ride back farther. I try and avoid over-long rear blocks, that route leads to axle wrap and the blocks can break.

I got no idea on the spacers, idealy, you should mount them up and eyeball the gap between the two rears, unless someone can chime in a tell you one way or the other... .

When you get it up and rolling, take a couple of pics.

Josiah

 

[CumminFast]

I think I'm the only guy that would like to still keep the rear higher.

Yeah I think it always looks better when the rear is higher also. Plus if you ever hook up to a trailer the buttend doesnt sag. Are you going to install your kit?

 

[BigUgly]

I got no idea on the install, I'm pretty much gonna wait untill my Rickson's wear out a bit more... . The way the Goodyears look, it'll be a while yet .

Josiah

 

[CyberRanger]

Using a 7" block, coupled w/ big tires will produce severe spring wrap. This type of thing will snap a rear driveshaft u-joint fast, especially given the torque capabilities of the Cummins.



The lift block provides leverage for the axles on the springs. With enough torque you can actually break your rear leaf spring. A 7" block can do that easily.



I know that Ford has used near that size a block in the past, but that was in conjunction w/ a much lower output engine & a much thicker spring pack. Newer trucks have longer, fewer leaf, spring packs. Tall blocks do not work well w/ these kinds of situations. It will also tend to produce a nasty wheel hop. Even if you don't break u-joints or spring packs, you'll create a lot of wear & tear on your frame & springs.



You can get away w/ 2"-3" blocks. Stay away from anything much bigger. Better yet, don't use any blocks at all.



FWIW.

 

[Davey]

Put a set of traction bars onto your rig and run the blocks you desire. Just make sure you get a well built set of traction bars, or they will flex as well.