Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting LONG RANGE ACCURACY....THANKS GregH

[GHarman]

blackbear, Heres some examples of what I am talking about. There are two disciplines represented in these articles. Prone with a sling and Benchrest. GregH



Sarver Shoots 1. 403″ Group at 1000 Yards « AccurateShooter.com Bulletin



1000 Yard World Record



Long Range High Power at Camp Perry - Video



AccurateShooter.com Daily Bulletin (Go to the Competition section and check out some of the articles. The August 25, 2009 article on Jason Baney is a great example. )

 

[WyoJim]

Yep, This is a fun discussion. Yet we are talking, as much, about each others needs, as much as the rifle's capabilities. But, the rifle MUST have better than MOA capability for this scenerio. There are places in Colorado where Elk are on your doorstep and a large bore revolver would work just fine as a tool to dispatch one of these big meat bags. My Dads . 300 Savage, does this quite well with iron sights. Then there are places where the Elk are 1/4 mile or more away, across open wheat fields and will run into the next county at the first quiver of the locoweed. Dont fergit, the landowners rules that there will be no gutpiles in the wheat! Then there are the neighbors that hate hunters. The requirement is that the elk drops in its footprints. No chasing blood trails. One shot, one kill, OOOHHHHAAAAAA. The target is not the elk, but a spot on the elk that is the conduit for all the nerve impulses that drive those huge and tasty muscles. That target is, ideally, at the base of the ear. It does extend down the neck but it is only about 3" wide. I dont trophy hunt so there is no issue here, nor do I wish to wound and not recover an animal. Practice with precise bullet placement and range estimation is crutial to a successful outcome.

I use a head and neck sillouette target and the stepped crosshair on a 4. 5X14 Leupold scope to fine tune my capabilities. The rifle I assembled for this purpose is a heavy barrelled affair using a blueprinted Remington-700 Magnum Action, H-S precision barrel and stock. The cartridge is the old . 30-338 with a tight neck. Ammo is loaded using hand dies. Necks are turned for concentricity, primer pockets are cut flat and square and the flash holes are chamfered. Am I picky? YEP! If I do my part, this combination can take an alert Cow Elk out to 600 yards. The longest shot, for me is 500 yards(Witnessed). ( Lets not mention varmint rifles and the long range possibilities, thereOo. :-laf. )

Personally, Accuracy and precision, in a rifle is the epitome of the science. Souped up diesel trucks are cool, but 5 shots in 1 1/2" at 1000 yards makes me drool:-lafOo. . GregH

Seems to me that attempting to shoot an elk at the base of the ear out to 600 yards would be a good way to have a wounded elk running around with it lower jaw shot off.

 

[WyoJim]

My preferred choice for any shot over 500yds is my 6. 5/284. I also have a couple of close seconds 6mm Ackley Improved... 8mmSTW... Lazzeroni . 264 Phantom. All of mine were built by a local shop here in PA and built under the light gun rules(16lbs)so I could go and shoot matches upstate. I haven't been out for a few years but have a local range which has targets up to 100yds which I still regularly use. I am a big fan of varmint shooting in the summer but around here where I live anything calibured larger than a . 22-250 is to large as we do not have the distance due to homes. I generally shoot a Winchester Pre-64 Model 70 in . 22-250 or a . 220 Swift for the light bullets and accuracy at short distances here for varmints,if I go upstate then my 6. 5/284 is the preferred choice..... Andy

Andy... Your Pa location and caliber preference bring back memories for me from back in the '60's.

I bought my first . 264 back in 1964 and my first 6. 5X300 WWH in 1968 built for me by Alex Hoyer in Lewistown, PA. It is my preferred caliber for elk.

 

[GHarman]

Seems to me that attempting to shoot an elk at the base of the ear out to 600 yards would be a good way to have a wounded elk running around with it lower jaw shot off.

The only wounded elk that I have had to track is one shot through the lungs. The "attempt" is not there, it has been done, more than a few times. In Wyoming you have alot of open country as we have in Colorado. However, the politics of hunting are alot different between the two States. Try tracking your lung shot elk across private property, owned by anti-hunters! MOF; there is a cadre of long range shooters that hang around the Cody/Meetetsee area that make longer shots on Elk, Deer and Antelope, than I do! If you dont feel comfortable doing this, by all means please feel free to abstain, you will not be any less of a hunter. However, I will continue to practice and prepare for each hunting opportunity. Stalking through the woods or 1/3 mile across a wheatfield. Putting meat in the freezer is the goal. There is no ethical issue. I am not a young man that can hike for miles all day. But I can still shoot, quite well. Respectfully, GregH

 

[AABEN]

Why did they make the radson rest?? It was made so you could find out jest how good the gun was. That takes away mans mistake!!

 

[WyoJim]

The only wounded elk that I have had to track is one shot through the lungs. The "attempt" is not there, it has been done, more than a few times. In Wyoming you have alot of open country as we have in Colorado. However, the politics of hunting are alot different between the two States. Try tracking your lung shot elk across private property, owned by anti-hunters! MOF; there is a cadre of long range shooters that hang around the Cody/Meetetsee area that make longer shots on Elk, Deer and Antelope, than I do! If you dont feel comfortable doing this, by all means please feel free to abstain, you will not be any less of a hunter. However, I will continue to practice and prepare for each hunting opportunity. Stalking through the woods or 1/3 mile across a wheatfield. Putting meat in the freezer is the goal. There is no ethical issue. I am not a young man that can hike for miles all day. But I can still shoot, quite well. Respectfully, GregH

I am sorry I ruffled your feathers so bad by stating the obvious. But the fact remains that the more times this shot is attempted the better the chance of hitting one where you don't want to. As far as me not feeling comfortable killing at long range I have been a long range hunter since 1969. Although I will admit the techniques and equipment have left me behind since I have got long in the tooth.

 

[GHarman]

Why did they make the radson rest?? It was made so you could find out jest how good the gun was. That takes away mans mistake!!

Blackbear, My Friend. To rephrase what you have said; (A Ransom rest only provides an indication of the ability of the firearm. It completely eliminates the human element. ) It is a sure statement that all firearms have various capabilities. Not all firearms with a rifled bore can put their shots through the same hole! I know, from my own collection, my Dads . 300 Savage and his Marlin . 30/30, for example, have various capabilities fired from a rest. They would not be competitive against a tuned match rifle. I would not trust either rifle to hit a 6" square at 600 yards while the . 30-338 or . 30/06 (it is not the cartridge, but the tuning and platform) that has been tuned, will keep all the shots fired inside that 6" square. Without a hands on demonstration, it is difficult to show you what I mean.

Often, custom pistol makers will test their products on the ransom rest to find those imperfections. However, the average, over the counter firearm is not tested to the same level of perfection. Test firing with over pressure loads to assure safety is as far as it goes. The tuning is left up to the owner.

All that being said, If you have a rifle that, under perfect conditions will keep all its shots in 6" at 100 yards (fixed rest and remote firing mechanism). After you have practiced, that is best you will be able to do, because that is the limit that has been established by the rifle. and 6" at 100 yards translates to 36" at 600 yards, plus your error added in.

Again, it is like trying to use your stock Cummins to compete against a 1000 HP, tuned, sled puller. You will showup and make an effort, but you will not compete at the level of the tuned and souped up machine and will probably sustain damage, to boot. GregH

 

[GHarman]

I am sorry I ruffled your feathers so bad by stating the obvious. But the fact remains that the more times this shot is attempted the better the chance of hitting one where you don't want to. As far as me not feeling comfortable killing at long range I have been a long range hunter since 1969. Although I will admit the techniques and equipment have left me behind since I have got long in the tooth.

WyoJim,Actually there is a statistical probability that you will completely miss before making the dreaded jaw shot. An equal amount of error to the jaw from the center of the spine is measured by a clock face. The jaw can be at 3 O'Clock or 9 O'Clock. The greater error is estimating distance, that is a vertical error, still allowing for a lower neck shot. These elk are not running and only the lead cow is aware of your presence. That one is the target. A full standing broadside elk allows plenty of time for range estimation and conditions. A rifle with horizontal error greater than 3" at 600 yards is not the one you want to use at this distance. Again, it is a tuned rifle and lots of practice.

I was only answering your reply. My feathers werent ruffled. I am not a youngster either GregH

 

[BIGNASTY]

Looks like someone has been watching to many shooting shows on tv

 

[GHarman]

Looks like someone has been watching to many shooting shows on tv

What channel are you watching? I am interested. There is not much documentation in the media about stuff like this. You gotta be doing it, trying to do it or checking the match statistics and learning! GregH

 

[GCroyle]

Very interesting stuff. My shooting here in SC is limited to a couple hundred yards at deer season. I don't have the big wide open spaces like Greg and others. But I do recognize the challenge of correctly lobbing one in at these distances. Skill, equipment, practice and consistency come to mind.



Nice work and skills demonstrated.



I don't want to hijack Greg's VERY interesting hunting pracitces, but if you are discussing long range shooting, I think we could include the NRA High Power and XTC matches as a I can't believe what can be done with an IRON SIGHTED . 223 service rifle or 30-06 M1, 1903 variation or . 308 M1A in the hands of a Master or High Master. I wish I still had a 20 minute drive to the 600 yard range that I was fortunate enough to compete at. I managed to earn Expert at High Power before we moved.



Greg, always interesting to hear your adventures out in the high country.

 

[GHarman]

Gary, This year was a completely different hunting scenerio. I got access to a ranch that was Mostly timber with a few meadows that were less than 200 yards across. I carried my Dads . 300 Savage with handloads. We got into the Elk in the timber, but did not get a chance to make a kill on a cow. We heard a Bull bugeling , down in the canyon, below us. As we were moving toward our spot, the Bull came up the mountain on our opposite side, coming towards us. Another party was mimicing the Bulls Bugle and he was Pi**ed. The other party had a Bull permit so we stayed back, to allow them to try to take the Bull. They rushed the Bull at the last minute, and a whole herd took off through the timber. It sounded like a freight train going through the trees!! What a rush! We didn't know that there was a harem of cows with the Bull. In 5 days of hunting this new area, close to home, that was the only encounter. Lots of Elk, just difficult access.

You are right about the NRA matches as well as the IBS, NBRSA 1000yard benchrest matches, F-class and Palma Competitions as well as the Wimbleton and Leech Cup matches at Camp Perry. Lots of information and amazing accomplishments.

The most recent NBRSA pending record group at 1000 yards is 10 shots in 3. 048", fired by Joel Pandergraft. The accomplishment of a 5 shot group of 1 1/2" at 1000 yards is not far away! NBRSA 600 yard benchrest groups have been less than 1" for a couple of years. The last record hoovered around . 6", if I recall correctly. GregH

 

[GCroyle]

Greg,



That sounds like a lifetime event, a freight train of Elk, WOW! And carrying your Dad's Savage, it don't get any better than that. I used to carry my Dad's as issued R. I. '03 until I figured out it was too valuable for that duty, now I carry my Uncle's sporterized '03 instead, nice piece but w/o the originality factor.



Maybe someday.



Greg, Camp Perry is one of the events I sure would like to see. But I think I would have liked to have been there in the heyday of the venerable '03. In one of the NRA AR issues they told a Camp Perry story about an Old Timer that used an off the rack '03 and with his aging eyes ran a string of X's and 10's until the light was shot out and he "lost" by a few points to a rifle that I forget what it was, but he didn't have the Las Vegas odds in his favor. He had to turn in his '03 at match end, but he was offered the option to buy it, didn't have the cash, but his shooting mates ponied up and bought the NM '03 for him, what a day to be at Camp Perry.



The guys at MSSA, Memphis TN held egg matches at 600 yds, 1 shot $5 I think, cold barrel, what an EGGstrodaniary EGGvent!

 

[GHarman]

The groups are shrinking!!!

Been a while since I posted, but, I ran across this article and thought it worth sharing with fellow shooters. That magic 1. 5" group at 1000 yards is not far away! GregH



Matt Kline Shoots 2. 815″ Record at 1000 Yards with 300 WSM « Daily Bulletin

 

[BIGNASTY]

Shooting

The caliber of my choice for such long range shooting is 338/378 the kick is a little stiff but when it gets out to what ever your shooting at it know's it's been hit by something more than a fly. I prefer the high shoulder shot hit correctly the last several elk have not taken even a step just nose down in the dirt. Shooting for an ear or neck/spine shot is very risky for ME and notice I said ME the spine in the neck is very small in comparison to the rest of the surrounding neck mussel and I dont know about you but after hunting form the age of 10 (dont tell but my dad had me use my brother's birth cert. he was 12) I still shake like a dog S****** a peach seed when I cap one off. Guess that's part of the rush. Leaving for the Bob Marshall in Montana Tomorrow to try my luck again happy hunting/shooting BIGNASTY

 

[GHarman]

Hope you CONNECT! Have a safe and succesful trip, BIGNASTY! GregH

 

[Dl5treez]

The caliber of my choice for such long range shooting is 338/378 the kick is a little stiff...

Just a little huh? :-laf



Hope the hunt goes well!

 

[HHhuntitall]

Welllll, first off, love the thread..... I shoot quite a bit myself, owning my own property and such, and I also shoot NRA High-power competition, and hunt extensively. My current long range caliber is the . 284 winchester. And if you're looking for the current 1,000 yard record in F-class, his last name is Ballard, and yes, he shoots a . 284.



I've shot examples of just about all North American game, large and small, countless varmints, and even more feral hogs... . hate those boogers..... and as my opinion, I think a spine shot is an excellent shot. I usually aim a little lower than at the base of the skull, but I've never shot the jaw off of a Whitetail, Muledeer, OR elk, ever. I've missed many, many times, but when I have hit, which has happened a lot, too, it's a clean kill. Misses are clean misses. As a younger man and child, I shot a few that ran off... . many well placed shoulder and heart shots, but just not as effective as should have been. I've also learned how to track a wounded animal and shoot on the run... . as far as competition, I've shot just about everything, including 50bmg, 408 Cheytac, 416 Barret, 338 Lapua, etc. The . 338 Ultramag and . 338 Norma Mag seem to be a little better case design in that caliber... ..... but then, I've also shot F-TR 1,000 yard ranges with my . 223 Remington..... Assembly and components are everything, if you want it to shoot accurately. I really enjoy visiting with fellow OCDX shooters, which makes me bring up the subject, Where do you get your reamers, what barrel blanks do you use, and what bullets do you have good luck with? Anyone else shoot the . 284 on a long action? I do like the 6. 5x284 as well... what barrels, bullets, brass, actions, optics? What kind of Lathe are you using? Endmills, stocks?



And hatcheting up a good buck into quarters and carrying him 4-5 miles out in halves is a real testimony as to how determined you are to hunt. . (Not that I don't really prefer trying to load a buck or bull on a snorting horse for that trip!!!)

 

[GHarman]

HHhuntitall, Sounds like you have alot more experience than I have. I've just been tinkering at this, building my own rifles, since 1970. Held a gunsmiths FFL for 9 years but did not know how to market myself. I love to hunt, and shoot, but as I get older it seems life and my body has gotten in the way. Its been years since I shot competitively. I am a member of two clubs that host NRA National Matches and Long Range/Palma competition as well as a host of other shooting disciplines.

My favorite barrels are H-S Precision. Been using them for years. They were originally made by Bill Atkinson, Prescott Arizona. He was bought out by Tom Houghton and he named the company H-S Precision. They moved to South Dakota and the company is run by Tom Houghton Jr. . They make some great barrels and were used for a time on the M-40 USMC rifle.

I have a few barrel blanks left. When they are used up, I will look at Kreiger or Bartlien. All cut rifled tubes. (H-S are the hardest in the industry). I dont know if H-S is still selling to the public?

I have been using JGS Reamers, they cut really nice but are pricey. Dave Kiff at Pacific tool and gauge is also making some fine tooling that is used extensively by Gunsmiths across the Nation at a more reasonable price than JGS, IMHO

Bullets; I use Sierra, Berger, Nosler and am going to try a batch of BIB 187 gr. BT match in the . 30/06 match rifle. I also moly coat most of the bullets.

I have a Teiwan copy of a Clausing Cholchester 13"X40" lathe. I still cut chambers the old way, between centers. Have had excellent results using that method. Picked up a severely used bridgeport mill copy, and salvaged tooling. I did buy a Kurt Angleloc vice for the mill along with an aloris tool post/tools and a full profile threading tool with carbide inserts for barrel threads(lathe). I used to hand grind threading tools from REX 95 stock, but as my eyes get worse, I cant see well enough to get the correct angles. The full profile tool makes a better thread!

I dont pack out meat any more. I get help from the younger folks. I sold my mule, back in 1992:{. Built a wheeled meat carrier that one man can use, but still need help with that chore.

Here are some links that may help. GregH

www.6mmbr.com

Bartlein Barrels, Inc. - Main Page

Home

Reamers, Chamber Reamers, Jgstools.com, Rifle, Shotgun, Pistol, Chamber Reamers , Gauges, Bore Reamers, Precision Tools, Turbo Assesories,

Welcome To Pacific Tool and Gauge Inc. -- Reamers, Gauges, Bushings, and more.

http://www.boartuffoutdoors.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl

 

[HHhuntitall]

Thanks for the link to JGS. I've never used them, seen some tooling with their marks, though. I used to pick up some older used reamers, chipped and such, and get them reground for experimenting and match reamers. A lot of the older tools were made out of better material than you usually find today. Pacific tool does most of my match reamer work. Kiff is, IMHO, the best I've seen on chamber reamers. I've used some Bartlein barrels, but right now, the best I've seen are the North Machining, Broughton Barrels. They usually break in around 40 rounds, and seem to hardly copper foul at all, regardless of bullet brand. One rifle I built is the current F-Class FTR 600 yard civilian record holder..... sorry, kinda proud of that one ... . I've built my dad and I four . 284s for competition as of late, but we haven't really had much time to compete. I've really got what I think will be a hummer if I can get the time to shoot it!! It's sister barrel is on my Dad's action, and it's won at Capitan, NM several times, and I think he took 3rd at Raton, NM last month, and 2nd at Tulsa, OK the month before. I've had really good luck with the JLK bullets from Steve Mulholland, and the Berger's have been pretty decent, as well. For that matter, Dad won Capitan the first time with 175 SierraMKs!! I'm trying to provide for my family and build the empire, so to speak, so to be a dad to my kids I had to give up something... ... I did win the FTR open at Tulsa in April at 600yds, but not many people showed up due to the weather.....



As for the H-S barrels, I was unaware they even made such. I've used their synthetic stocks for years, but never knew they made anything else..... I've used Kreiger fairly extensively, and are second on my preference list. As a coincidence, I've got a 6mm barrel I pulled off of a Surgeon action recently, that was a . 243Win, and I'm planning on making a 6mmBR experiment..... I want to try to use it for a mid-range rifle, with 115 Tubb bullets or 105 JLKs... . it's a 1:7. 5 twist, so I'm really interested in seeing what velocities I can do with it with a little throat and 3/4 degree lead... ... ever experimented with any chamber and throat variations? I'm thinking a . 252 neck diameter... ...



As for the horses, they are a necessary pain with the cattle... . we love to hate each other. I grew up with them, hunting off of 'em, packing animals, tools, wire..... I've had some really good ones... .



How do you like the Kurt Tools? I've only seen a couple of Tool setters, custom vices, and some custom work holders... ... . I've used some Glacern stuff, which is supposed to be up there with Kurt in quality... . I've never invested in that new of equipment. My old Mitsutoyo lathe and most of the tooling is old enough to be my grandfather..... I'm trying to find a standard hear head for it right now... . it was loose as heck when I bought it, and it finally gave way when I was trying to thread a 2" bolt for a plow hinge pin a few months ago... . it probably never would have given me any problems if I had stuck to chambering and threading SS barrels and squaring a few actions now and again!! I had a TE. CO workholder on my Bridgeport when I sold it, trying to raise the money to repair my lathe. It's age is no help... ...