Might have found a fix for hard shifting

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by redram



Ask for the dyno reports on the Castrol Syntorq or Texaco MTX? How do you know that these fluids were not chosen due to 'low bid' scenarios rather than the end all to meet end all?



I've not seen any conclusive test reports justifying the 26/ quart price or the only average results that I have seen in my 10+ years of owning a Cummins powered vehicle







Hey, if you're not ready to accept that there may / are better lubricants for the applications on our trucks, then use the OEM fluids. No one is forcing you to do anything but your choice. But you shouldn't force your feelings on others who have tried things that they find have improved the shift quality.

.

 

[GOODE11]

NAPA part #

Anybody happen to have the part # for the MTL at NAPA? Also, how many quarts did you guys put in your 5sp, I believe its 8, but I want to make sure



The brainstormers that work at the two local units say they can't get Redline products.



Thanks

 

[Texas Diesel]

Originally posted by NVR FNSH

I'm not talking about Jim Bob ran our 5W-30 for 150K and the synchros look good. I'm talking about hardcore transmission dyno testing type stuff - you know, controlled engineering/R&D tests? Brian

ROTFLMAO, excellent question!

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by redram





Ask for the dyno reports on the Castrol Syntorq or Texaco MTX? How do you know that these fluids were not chosen due to 'low bid' scenarios rather than the end all to meet end all?

Lets take the 6 speed, logic would dictate that you would "not" pick a lube based on low bid. Designate it as a life time fill and then warrant the transmission for 70 to 100K miles, depending on when you bought your truck. Logic in this situation would dictate that you would only use the best lube you could buy.



The low bid would make sense if you required lube changes every 15K and your warranty was for 36K miles and you did not plan on being in business much longer. You have to follow the money, what would cost the manufacture more money??? Plus this manufacture has a reputation to protect, so what, they are going to cut corners on the transmission lube?? No way.

 

[John Berger]

There is no way I would ever follow a lifetime fill recommendation from the factory. Maybe my head is stuck in the sand, but I don't think so. I would be worried about what happens after the warranty is expired; or more to the point, how soon after the warranty expires, that something happens. Maybe I'm way out in left field here, but I've seen my gear lube after 30 or 40 thousand miles with heavy towing. No way would I want to go a "lifetime" without changing the lube. As for which lube, well that's been debated before, hasn't it? :-{}

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by John Berger

There is no way I would ever follow a lifetime fill recommendation from the factory.

I agree, this fluid should be changed at some point. Like John said I want this thing to last beyond 100K miles. I also plan on changing mine.

 

[1tuffram]

Originally posted by Pit Bull

Lets take the 6 speed, logic would dictate that you would "not" pick a lube based on low bid. Designate it as a life time fill and then warrant the transmission for 70 to 100K miles, depending on when you bought your truck. Logic in this situation would dictate that you would only use the best lube you could buy.



The low bid would make sense if you required lube changes every 15K and your warranty was for 36K miles and you did not plan on being in business much longer. You have to follow the money, what would cost the manufacture more money??? Plus this manufacture has a reputation to protect, so what, they are going to cut corners on the transmission lube?? No way.

For all we know there was a few lubes which met the spec criteria so it was a "lowest bid gets the contract" deal. Maybe after DC reviewed some test data on % of failure rate using the "lowest bid" lube they decided to play the odds profits from the lower cost lube would outway the bean-counters projected potential warranty claims???? It's hard to speculate what happens behind closed doors. Plus, as pointed out "life time fill" can be loosely interpreted. Is it the life time (time span) I will own and operate the truck OR the "life time" (time span) of DC's power-train warranty???

 

[HeberRam]

Enough is enough!!!!

As Redram said

Hey, if you're not ready to accept that there may / are better lubricants for the applications on our trucks, then use the OEM fluids. No one is forcing you to do anything but your choice. But you shouldn't force your feelings on others who have tried things that they find have improved the shift quality.

You can beat yourselfs to death on what you think the manufactors, reasons were or weren't regarding the use of their lube products for warranty purposes. I couldn't of said it better than Redram's quote above. .



Peters attempt on posting this tread was to help those with six-speed Nv5600 shifting problems, might want to try a different transmission mix that has worked for others. I have installed 4-different SouthBend clutches ( up grades as my power was increassed) and in each case my transmission problems, sometimes hard shifting, sticking in and out of reverse, and sometimes stumbling mis-shifts stayed the same. The point I think Peter was trying to make was, these conditions sugguest they are not necessary clutch problems. I know Peter personally, and respect his opinions, and suggestions, therefore, I tried what has worked for others. And dam if it didn't work for me!!!! I know a little about lubricants as I worked for Chevron for 20years... I was working for the company when "Delo" motor oil was developed. I understand, viscosity, heat reduction, lubrication properties of oils to prevent wear. Synthetics such as Amsoil, Redline and others are relaitively new to the Petroleum base stock companies, and their proven success has evolved Chevron, Texaco, Mobile, Shell and other major refiners to also produce synthetics. So for me to try the Redline MTL and Prolong in my trans was a no brainer.



I believe you should use the best lubrication products available on the market that meets or exceeds MF recommendations, change fluids regularly, do not go beyond recommemded change intervals etc.



As we all know, wear is the major cause of failure, and since the use of Redline in the transmission has eased the hard shifting, It tells me there is less wear going on. IMHO I don't think there is any 5w-30w motor oil that is going to hurt the NV5600 trans, only those oils with good friction modifyers and additives such as Prolong and Energy Release which are proven friction modifyers seem to due better in our NV5600 6-speeds.



Not endorsing anything here, just letting people know it works for me!!



Steve

 

[Elite1]

I think I may have found something here, that goes along with what Peter (southbend clutch) says about adding a friction modifier (he mentions prolong, but I guess Dodge sells their own brand). This document doesn't address specifically our NV5600, but it does address other Dodge transmissions that take the same fluid (ms9224). Seems Dodge doesn't use the straight oil (ms9224, or 4874464)... they add a friction modifier to it! Maybe thats why they say it is a lifetime lube, and don't really spec. a replacement.

Note who wrote this doc. , Here is the document:



I thought this was an interesting find, when searching for the specified oil (MS9224). I see that Dodge adds a friction modifier to the spec. oil. On some of the NV transmissions, no mention of the NV5600. Here is the article:



Lubrication Basics



Manual Transmission/Transaxle Flushes



by Don Johnson



Making the correct fluid choices for manual transmissions or transaxles is not as easy as it may sometimes seem. In many cases, the location of the drain and fill plugs are key to identifying which type of transmission/transaxle is used in a vehicle.



Once the transmission unit has been identified, the proper lubricant must then be selected. In previous years, one of the more common lubricants used was an API (American Petroleum Institute) GL designated fluid (i. e. GL-4, GL-5, etc. ). However, today's vehicles' transmissions and transaxles require one of many different fluid types such as gear oil, engine oil, automatic transmission fluid or even a special transmission fluid such as Synchromesh fluid.



Even after identifying what type of fluid is needed, the proper viscosity or specification must be used. Does it require SAE 5W-30 or 10W-30 motor oil, DEXRON-III/MERCON, or a synthetic MERCON automatic transmission fluid? The choice can make a noticeable difference in performance, operation and life of transmission components. Now that we know there are several different fluids available for manual transmissions, lets take a look at the performance characteristics of each fluid.



A gear oil product meeting API GL-5 SAE 80W-90 is commonly recommended for both manual gearboxes and conventional differentials in cars pick up trucks and sport utility vehicles (SUVs). This fluid provides the full protection of an SAE 90 under high temperatures and hard driving conditions, while still providing the fast flow characteristics of SAE 80W when the unit is cold. Likewise API GL-5 fluids may also be recommended for use in industrial gear units. However, a typical GL-5 will contain approximately twice the amount of Extreme Pressure (EP) additive as that of an API GL-4 gear oil. When an API GL-5 fluid is used in an API GL-4 application, the additional EP additive may have a negative reaction with the yellow metal components (brass, bronze, etc. ) used in some transmissions. The EP additive can contribute to chemical corrosion, etching or excess wear of yellow metals over time, which may shorten the life of the transmission components. Always be sure that the correct fluid with the proper API service designation is chosen for the application.



Another common gear oil used is a product meeting API GL-4 SAE 80W-90 which also provides the viscosity of an SAE 90 under hard driving conditions while providing the low temperature flow characteristics of SAE 80W that are necessary during cold weather start-ups. EP and antiwear additives are added to minimize metal to-metal contact wear, but at approximately half the amount used in API GL-5 products. Likewise, an API GL-4 product is commonly designed for both transmissions and differentials found in certain models manufactured by Audi, Hyundai, Nissan, Porsche, Suzuki, Toyota, Volkswagen and others. Always remember to double-check that the proper fluid has been chosen for the application.



Although not as common as other gear oils, some products are formulated to meet the API GL-3 classifications and have limited applications. Currently the most common application is in certain late model jeep vehicles. This fluid is available at your local Jeep dealer's parts department.



API GL-1 SAE 80W-90 is a non-EP, straight mineral oil. It contains no active extreme pressure additives that may contribute to chemical corrosion, etching or wear of yellow metals such as brass or bronze. API GL-1 is specifically designed for use in manual transmissions, transfer cases and final drives in on-highway trucks and off-highway equipment which require an SAE 8OW-90, non-EP, API GL-1, straight mineral gear lubricant.



Depending on ambient temperature, an SAE 50 motor oil can be used as an alternate fluid.



Synchromesh transmission fluid is designed for certain manual transaxles and transmission used by General Motors and Chrysler corporations. It provides excellent oxidation stability, low temperature performance, excellent synchronizer performance and superior compatibility with yellow metals such as bronze, brass and copper components found in manual transaxles and transmissions. Synchromesh fluid is specifically formulated for transmissions used by General Motors and may be identified by GM part No. 12345349. This product also replaces GM part No. 12345577 used in Top Load four-speed manual transmission applications. Likewise, for Dodge truck applications, Synchromesh fluid is identified under Chrysler part No. 4874464.



Synchromesh fluid was developed for use in the NV (New Venture) 3500 five-speed manual transmission used by both Chrysler and General Motors. This is the only product recommended for applications using the NV3500 Transmissions after 1991. Between 1988 and 1991 either Synchromesh or 5W-30 engine oil was acceptable in the NV3500.



Both automakers also use the NV1500 manual transmission, which also requires the Synchromesh fluid. However, the NV1500 transmission requires additional friction modifier to achieve proper performance and protection. General Motors part No. 12377916 already has the friction modifier added. On the other hand, Dodge applications using the NV1500 require Chrysler part No. 4874464, which does not have the additional friction modifier added. Therefore, an additional 0. 2 pint (0. 1 liter) of friction modifier must be added to Chrysler part No. 4874464. The friction modifier may be purchased at your local Dodge dealer.



As for the transmissions that use automatic transmission fluid (ATF), be sure to verify which type of ATF is recommended.



In addition to ATF, engine oils are also used in certain manual transmissions and transaxles in various viscosity grades, so make sure the correct viscosity grade is chosen. You should also take note that the fluids mentioned above are not interchangeable.



Choosing the correct extremely important to the service life and performance of the transmission or differential.



If you are ever in doubt as to the correct fluid to use, be sure to refer to the vehicle owner's manual.



Don Johnson is the vice president of Product Engineering at Pennzoil Products Co. He is a member of the API Lubricants Committee. He is a member of the Society Of Engineers (SAE) and the Society of Tribologists and Lubricant Engineers (STLE). Readers may write to him at: P. O. Box 2967, Houston, TX 77252-2967





__________________

 

[greyghost]

Redline

Well, I too have been having a shifting problem after the install of my awesome SBC clutch. Talked with an applications engineer at Redline today. Was one of the best Q and A talks I've had in awhile.



Red Line Synthetic Oil Corporation

6100 Egret Court

Benicia, California 94510



(800)624-7958



Don't let ignorance get the better of ya.



My . 02



Garrett

 

[John Berger]

I had to have a slave cylinder replaced at 98K miles. The shifting was super smooth and effortless for a couple of weeks, but now it's back to where it was when I first had my SBC clutch installed. Occasionally hard shifting in the lower gears and sometimes hard to get into first. No problems between frequent 1st-Reverse shifts, though. I think the problem is with the OEM slave cylinder, at least in my case. I'm using this one until it acts up and will install an aftermarket cylinder. I'm not willing to have a $375. 00 maintanence item every 18 months or so.

 

[Texas Diesel]

John, I have a SBC Con OFE and have replaced my hydraulic system once, I dont think the clutch is the problem but the poor quality of the plastic clutch hydraulics. If you find a good (metal?) hydraulic system PLEASE let me know because my new (6mos old) system is getting rough feeling at the bottom of the pedal travel.

 

[John Berger]

Tejas,



The rod is a piece of crap, considering what it has to do and what it's made of. I think it's sensitive to hot temps. The shifting problem came back right about the time I towed the 5'ver to Bristol in August. My transmission ran around 205 most of the way, with occasional highs up to 215 when pulling the bigger grades. I'm not saying it wouldn't have come back eventually. It just happened at that time. I do not believe the clutch is the problem. I believe Peter sells a slave and NAPA, too. I don't know about the master, though.

 

[Texas Diesel]

I talked to SBC about their slave cylinder and the guy (wasnt Peter) told me it was OEM stuff and bleeding it was difficult with out the right tools (Difficult! Impossible is more like it). How did you manage to bleed yours? I wish there was a way to convert the whole system to a cable setup and trash the hydraulics, too many problems. I have owned Toyotas and Mistubishis that had plastic hydraulic clutches and they were a PIA too. Give me a cable any day.

 

[John Berger]

I didn't bleed mine. I took it to the dealer and it ended up being replaced. Sorry for any misunderstanding. I can't think of any easy conceivable way to do it. Maybe NAPA's slave is better. Anybody out there know the part number?



I'm running Amsoil Series 2000 75W-90 in my 5 speed. Almost six quarts worth. I have the Geno's filter kit and a fast cooler installed as well.

 

[greyghost]

After my conversation with the folks at Redline, I contacted my local dealer. Went down and talked with them and walked out of the store with MTL / MT-90 (50/50 blend) for the trans, d4 for the T-case, 75w/140 for the rear diff, 75w/90 for the front diff and a case of 15w/40 diesel oil. Changed all the above last night, and I'd have to say the trans feels better, not so stiff and rachetty (sp?). Time will tell if it was worth it.



On a different note, I did make my own slave cylinder rod. I got out the depth guage and went to work fabing up a longer rod. One which keeps the throw out bearing closer to the fingers of the diaphragm without putting too much pressure on it. All this was done to raise the petal engagement from the floor to the middle of the petal travel. This change seemed to help the most. It appears the SBC is so good it won't let go of the flywheel and pressure plate, which make the syncro work harder to speed the clutch disk up or slow it down. Now with more clutch disengagement things are better.



Disclaimer: Beware this is not for the faint of heart and there is a set distance that must be maintained. Too little and the clutch will not fully disengage. To much and the clutch may not engage properly and prematurely wear out the throw out bearing.





My . 02 (flame suit ready, let it happ'n, capt'n)







Garrett

 

[tom sweeney]

i changed the fluid in my 5600 to Red Line and Prolong at the last May Madness,the results have been impressive to say the least!!! that ws 25k + ago and it seems to be shifting better all the time..... i'm currently at 110K miles and this fluid combo is doing quite well... . thanks for the tip Rowdy!!!!... . tom

 

[Hohn]

Well, I have been using MTL in my 5600 for about 15K now of almost all around town driving. LOTS of shifting.



Anyway, the truck shifts very well. It shift well cold, even. In fact, it seems to shift better now than it did even 5K miles ago.



The only weird thing I notice is that sometimes there's no clear "snick" of the shifter dropping into gear. It's there, but it feel like it didn't make it into gear, even though it did. It's usually when i shift into second that it happens. i dunno what causes that, but it doesn't appear to be a problem, just weird.



For the record, the MTL is thicker than the spec MOPAR fluid. Check the viscosity specs and you will see this is the case. I don't know how or if this would affect shifting, but mine shifts plenty nice.



It's helpful to remember that this is NOT a six-speed Corvette. It's a truck transmission designed more for durability than quick shifting.



That it shifts as well as it does is quite impressive to me.





Justin

 

[Hohn]

Originally posted by HeberRam

Thanks guys..... you have totally confussed me not the first time though. . In order to be fair, and wayne you know me, I put Amsoil 75w-90w gear lube in my front differential tonite!!!! I also put 8oz. of prolong in the NV5600 with yesterdays Redline MTL. I use Delo 400 15-40 in my crankcase, and Mopar gear lube with modifier in the rear differential. I have had a six Pack of Bud ( not lite) for me, so all fluid levels are topped off.



I will report later on my findings for the truck... As far as I'm concerned, Bud works just fine for me, and never had any problems in 47 years!!!



later, Steve

Nah, Steve, you want to check into a brand of Beer called Czechvar (spelling?). It's actually the REAL budwieser. There has been an ongoing lawsuit over the right to the budweiser name for a long time.

Check this out:New to U. S. markets, the Czechvar Premium Czech Lager beers is brewed at the Ceske Budejovice Brewery in the Czech Republic. If the lawyers were not involved, consumers around the world might all know this brewery's top selling beer by its traditional name - Budweiser Budvar. The 16. 9 ounce bottles are labeled with the legally agreed upon name for sale in the U. S. and imported by World of Wine Ltd. , Moraga, California.

if you Google the Czechvar name, you will have lots of good info.

Justin