Might have found a fix for hard shifting

[jerryrigg]

I posted this back in July.....



http://www.pennzoil.com/penn/products/car_truck/pdfs/gearoil/SynchromeshFluid.pdf



Shell and Texaco merged... Shell bought Pennzoil also... Texaco's fluid in now labeled as Pennzoil Synchromesh Fluid...



It is the stuff DC says to use... you can buy it online or order through a Pennzoil Dealer...







Also note I have been having an "email battle" back and forth with New Venture Sales and R&D... . I explained to them our problem locating required oil, Stealer's insane prices and the like. I inquired about using:



Royal Purple Synchromax

Synthetic 5w-30

Redline MTL



Sales gave me the typical "it is only tested for MTX 1874", R&D is beating around the bush some but I keep pressing them... they did advise against 5W-30 but have not ruled out Royal Purple or Redline... will keep all advised as continue to beat on New Venture.



-Matt

 

[Sled Puller]

Can you feel the love on this thread! LOL!



Of course NV would advise against 5W-30-Do you know how many 5 -30's DON"T meet the proper spec. ??



It is not in New Ventures best interest to test oils. They have one that works good enough, case closed. That is all they need.

 

[Shelby Griggs]

Gary - KJ6Q

Gary,



A couple of pages up, you were asking me about the GM spec. I got this from the Texaco web site back about a year ago. The MTX 1874 met the GM and DC spec. Somebody a few pages up listed the GM part number. GM uses this fluid in who knows what all, all I know is it was specified for my 1989 Grand Am with manual trans-axle.



So, buy the GM part number or the DC part number, it is/was probably all made by Texaco or their successor.



In my experience both the GM and DC fluid is about the same price and in line price wise with the other lubes being discussed here, I don't think the price per quart is a factor.



Shelby

 

[NVR FNSH]

Sort of back on the topic of trans oil and shift characteristics... .



My original 6spd had the countershaft repair done and then it was replaced without any real improvement in the shift quality. This work was done ~1 year ago. It still felt like the gears were clashing on the 2-3 & 3-4 shifts. It took quite a bit of force to get the shifter out of the lower gear and it took quite a bit of force to engage the next gear. Out of frustration the dealer put in LSD friction modifier at the recommendation of the DC zone rep. The friction modifier drastically improved the 2-3 & 3-4 shifts - for about a week. The other odd trait is that it seems to shift better when I'm towing my 14K GWVR 5th wheel. The trans still shifts like the original trans and the 'clash' seems to be coming back now that we're getting some colder temps.



I think that the input shaft is not being fully 'released' from the engine by one of the following: bad clutch linkage that doesn't have enough travel, misaligned bellhousing, bad pilot bearing, or weak/bad clutch (it doesn't slip). AFAIK the dealer did not check any of the above items. I think the friction modifier masked the drag issue just enough to improve the shifting for a short time. I also believe that when I'm towing there is enough drag on the drivetrain to overcome the drag from the engine side and allow easier shifting. Yes, I'm grasping at straws & I know it. I will be calling the dealer in January, after our New Year's Mojave Desert riding trip - gotta take the trailer, to have them look at the truck again. This consistent problem is not acceptable on a $33K truck. To be honest if I could have test driven 6spd and it had this problem I would have gotten a 5spd like my '96. Other than the minor issue with the gear splits I was much happier with the NV4500.



Brian

 

[Texas Diesel]

Smashed bannas?



Ok I tried it, put 4 dozen bannas in a smasher and then drained and refilled my 5600.



Results: MPG up 7. 990250% RWH up 3. 97888% Gear grinds up 100. 99%. Now it wont go in gear at all



Off to the dealer to 'demand' they honor the MFA and replace my 5600 beacuse I read on the TDR that smashed bannas were an approved lubricant. AND I *EXPECT* the Chiquita Banna company to come to my aid.



(just trying to add a little humor)

 

[fj40charles]

Here is what New Venture Gear says... This is the rattachment they sent me when I asked.



From: Gibbs, Kelly

Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 9:10 AM

To: Koliba, Kenneth

Subject: RE: NV5600 Lubrication

Importance: High





NVG developed and validated the NV5600 transmission with the Texaco

Synchromesh Transmission Fluid Code 1874 MTX. We have not tested nor had

experience with any other fluid. NVG will not condone the use of

alternative fluids in any of our products.





Texaco merged with Shell. I spoke with our lubrication buyer who assures me

that the product will still be available, in the same formulation, however

may be distributed in the aftermarket under a different name.

I have a call in to the salesman for Shell products to find out what name

the current Texaco Synchromesh Transmission Fluid Code 1874 MTX will be sold

under in aftermarket. I will fwd that info as soon as it comes in.





-----Original Message-----

From: Koliba, Kenneth

Sent: Tuesday, 03 December, 2002 8:09 AM

To: Gibbs, Kelly

Subject: FW: NV5600 Lubrication







-----Original Message-----

From: Nieman [mailto:niemanma@cox.net]

Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 1:20 AM

To: -- email address removed -- <mailto:sales@newventuregear.com>

Subject: NV5600 Lubrication





Ken,



I realize you are in sales I am sending this to you because your email

address is the only one listed on the New Venture Website. I would

appreciate it if you could please forward this to the correct "Technical

Support" department or individual.



Thank You









I own a 2001 Dodge Ram with your NV5600 6-speed transmission. Myself and

several hundred other members of the Turbo Diesel Register have been

faced with a very unpleasant situation. The NV5600 calls for the Texaco

Synchromesh Transmission Fluid Code 1874 MTX. For whatever reason, possibly

due to the mergers Texaco is no longer making this product. Most Dodge

dealers are either out or charging up to $40 per quart. Some dealers have

been replacing the Synchromesh fluid with synthetic 5W-30 motor oil because

they don't have the Synchromesh fluid. The "word" is the a good synthetic

5W-30 is the same thing. Before I or many of the other members ruin our

transmissions can you confirm that synthetic 5W-30 is adequate for the

NV5600? Is 5W-30 the correct weight or should we use something more like a

synthetic lightweight gear oil or ATF. Some have recommended "Royal Purple's

Synchromax Manual Transmission Fluid" which is used for transmissions using

ATF or Motor Oils, would this be a suitable substitute? I know Pennzoil is

now making a version of the Texaco Fluid but from what I have been able to

determine that it too is in short supply at this time. For those that have

already replaced their fluid with 5W-30 what problems might the encounter if

any or should they change it back as soon as possible?



Any assistance with the problem would be greatly appreciated.



Thank You,

Matt Nieman

 

[Pit Bull]

Matt, Great information. Please let us know when you receive the answer we all need.

Thanks

 

[Pit Bull]

Found this on Dave Fritz's web site. I think it answers some of the questions http://dodgeram.org/tech/transmission/Tex_5600_fluid.pdf

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I especially liked THIS part:



"NVG will not condone the use of

alternative fluids in any of our products. "





Sorta tells ya what NV thinks of cross-referenced stuff that is supposedly "just as good" or "equivelent to", but doesn't *specifically* meet the spec...

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Ok I tried it, put 4 dozen bannas in a smasher and then drained and refilled my 5600. "



HEY - don't laugh about the mashed babana bit - that and a few similar stunts were pretty common among used car dealers when trying to palm off a car with a noisy transmission or differential - will supposedly quiet one down real good...



At least long enough to get the sucker off the lot and the customers check cashed...

 

[NVR FNSH]

Gary,

Does it really suprise you that NVG won't condone the use of anything other than the Texaco stuff? I'm pretty sure they haven't tested all the other fluids out there. It's kind of like DC/Cummins response about using a K&N air filter. They're just doing the coorporate CYA. If somebody could provide the details of the DC spec then it wouldn't be too difficult to determine if an aftermarket fluid meets the spec - either by actual testing or comparison of the specs.



Now what I'm really curious about is the fact that DC/NVG are specifying the only fluid we can use since there is no 'standardized' spec like API or NGCI. I've always been told that if a manufacturer requires the use of a specific part/fluid then the OEM must provide that part/fluid free of charge. I'm guessing they would get around this requirement, if it's real, by claiming the lifetime fill.



Brian

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Brian, Pit Bull provided this pointer up above:



http://dodgeram.org/tech/transmissi..._5600_fluid.pdf





It clearly lists characteristics of the MTX lube required in our 6-speeds, and *I* have little doubt there IS a clearly defined and available test procedure for that specification that ANY refiner could easily obtain and use to provide a satisfactory lube to meet. I further suspect, that RATHER than develop, package and then market a SPECIFIC product for so limited a niche of customers, they prefer to INSTEAD, attempt to cross-reference to an established product they ALREADY have as being "as good as", or "closely equivelent"...



It's smoke and mirrors, it's deliberate deception, and an attempt to insinuate that a product is absolutely proper, and intended for service that it really probably isn't! Yeah, it might work, and in most cases work reasonably well for most applications - but in EXTREME usage, when the transmissing is frequently being relied upon to operate near the upper edges of its rating, what then?



Shucks, hauling groceries around town, the cheapest 5/30 off the cut-rate stations shelf MIGHT do just fine - but the PURPOSE of specific ratings for lubes is to safely provide performance and protection at ALL the extremes the hardware is designed to operate under, aat all times - and to do that, you hafta provide a STANDARD spec by which that can be measured, produced and clearly shown to qualify - anything else is simply a gamble...

 

[Sled Puller]

Yea Gary, that is Amsoils inent-"THIS ONE IS CLOSE! DUMP IT IN!



Take their impeccable record, that they fought hard for against all odds, doomsdayers that say "that can't work" you can't extend draims" and humongous multi billion dollar companys and trash it for a few hundred quarts a year.



No such thing as"close enough' at Amsoil. The bare minimum is equivelent, and their standard is much, much better. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose by recommending the wrong oil.



Amsoil wrote the book on extreme use. And they know what we do to these trucks.

 

[John Berger]

Originally posted by South Bend Clutch

I did not start this tread to debate oils and I am asking all of you to please stop. I just wanted to see if this could in fact help the problem that we all know exists. This was not open for debate, this was open for trial. I don't get it... If it doesn't work, drain it and nobody is the wiser.



Peter

Peter, once it got into lube effect on shifting, the genie came screaming outta that oil can :-laf It's as certain as death and taxes that if lube performance is mentioned around here, there's a good chance oil brands will be debated. This one is civil to this point. But the day is young.



I've been using the 80W-90 synthetic from Amsoil for the last couple of thousand miles and the shifting problem has almost went away. Every once in awhile it's hard to get out of gear, usually hard out of second and hard into third, like it's binding. I might try your slave and master cylinder setup next. I'll be in touch when I'm ready and if necessary.

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by NVR FNSH



I've always been told that if a manufacturer requires the use of a specific part/fluid then the OEM must provide that part/fluid free of charge. I'm guessing they would get around this requirement, if it's real, by claiming the lifetime fill.



Brian

Brain, I think your right about the lifetime fill covering them on this requirement. Very interesting. Does this stuff really cost $40 a quart? That would mean fluid to change the NV5600 would cost $160, Gary what did you pay?

 

[1tuffram]

HMMM, I wonder if the reason this issue of the Texaco fluid being the only recommended fluid by NVG has anything to do with when NVG designed the NV 5600 and was looking for a suitable fluid, Texico came in with the lowest bid for a fluid that met NVG's spec??? Maybe there is (or was) some sort of collaboration or contract between NVG and Texico being the "exclusive" lube provider for the NV 5600, so naturally when you call-up NVG they have to "officially" say Texico fluid is the only recommended stuff. Bet if you talked to a NVG technical service rep "off the clock" over drinks you might hear a different story than what you are told when they are "on the clock". Also don't you find it strange NVG has only used one manufactures brand lube in the dev of the NV 5600?? They (NVG) even stated they have not used anyone else's lube. Makes me think there was some partnership between NVG and Texico, thus a possible reason NO other manufactures lube has been tested in the NV 5600 (officially that they will publically announce anyway). For all we know NVG has done testing with other manufactures lubes, but can not publically state the results because Texico is contracted to be the exclusive lube provider. This is all speculation on my part, but it's sure funny how NVG and DC say there's only 1 "recommended" type/brand of fluid to use. Kind of like the the same ol story with the Castrol 5sp lube. Why did NVG change manufactures for the 6sp lube? Surely Castrol is capable of formulating a lube that meets the 6sp requirments. Truth be known Castrol (as well as other lube manufactures) was probably just out bid by Texico

 

[HeberRam]

To all the debaters out there, I last nite changed my manual transmission fluid from dealers Mopar to Redline MTL... . This morning at 7:00 am Rocky Mountain at 18 degrees I can honestly say there is a noticeble difference in shifting ease... Not perfect, but better than stock and better then after 30,000 miles dealer changeout... . Now have 53,000 miles. It was well worth it. Since the new oil has had a measureable effect, I purchased a bottle of prolong today and will add that to the mix??? I will report if that has any sugnificant results. .



I have never used Amsoil so I can't compare... . however, with the Redline the shifting is much better than the stock fluid...



Thankyou, Vaughn and Peter for bringing the subject up... Peter your friend was right...



P. S. I don't need someone telling me about warranty issues... My truck has never been warranted from the day born. I like to R&D stuff and this seems to work well in my six speed, time will tell I guess, like other things I have "bombed"... So far so good.



If I could only find a clutch that would hold??????



Steve

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Amsoil wrote the book on extreme use. And they know what we do to these trucks. '



Be pretty nice if that was correct - God knows *I* would gladly pay extra for an upgrade transmission lube where the supplier stated clearly, publicly and in writing, that their lube "FULLY meets or exceeds the manufacturer's spec in EACH and EVERY way - absolutely guaranteed!" BUT, so far, other than Redline and Penzoil, all we have is cross-references to stuff that is apparently generally similar enough to be used within limitations stated:



============

HDD- Series 3000 5w-30 Diesel Engine oil.

ASL- 5W-30 Gas engine oil 25,000 mile

XLF- 5W-30 Gas Engine oil 7500 mile

3 different lubes they have, that they have in print will work. The HDD is the best choice.

=============



"Will work?" Exactly what does THAT mean, it'll get by in a pinch, if nothing better is available? How about simply stating, "FULLY meets or exceeds the manufacturer's spec in EACH and EVERY way - absolutely guaranteed!"



IF the spec stuff is supposedly a lifetime fill, why is the "superior" cross-referenced stuff supplied with such short lifespans?



SO, I can go down to the local DC dealership, and pay $10 a quart over the counter for the spec stuff - OR, mail order brand "X" for even MORE, when Brand "X" places their own rather restrictive service interval on it? And ALL of Brand "X's" stuff is basically refined for engine use, rather than specifically for transmissions and their unique lube specs and requirements?



Gee, I'll have to think about that for a while...



AS to the frequently resurfacing bit about the "conspiracy" between NV or DC and Texaco or other refiners concerning their lube recommendations - YUP - I'm sure we're onto something there - I'm sure there are absolutely BILLION$ to be made in the NV-5600 transmission refill market - shucks, DC might simply quit making cars, and specialize in the transmission lube market...



I'm with Steve - warranty is no particular issue - but I *do* want a lube that is clearly and documented/spec'd BETTER, not simply one that "will work", or is cross-referenced as "generally equivelant"



Keep in mind, this is intended as informative (?), logical debate - let's keep personalities out of it...

 

[Pit Bull]

Gary, I can't find fault with your logic. Works for me! Also if someone else wants to be a pioneer and test other products, thats also great. These members risk taking benefits the entire TDR membership. What a great site and great bunch of members



PS - Sorry if I made this post personal :-laf

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

[B============

HDD- Series 3000 5w-30 Diesel Engine oil.

ASL- 5W-30 Gas engine oil 25,000 mile

XLF- 5W-30 Gas Engine oil 7500 mile

3 different lubes they have, that they have in print will work. The HDD is the best choice.

=============



!"



IF the spec stuff is supposedly a lifetime fill, why is the "superior" cross-referenced stuff supplied with such short lifespans?



[/B]

Gary, sorry for the misunderstanding, the miles listed are for gas engines, not gearbox. . Those are different grades of 5w-30. Priced accordingly.



I personally do not buy into any lifetime fill in a gearbox, especially where I live.



Whos lifetime. ???????