Might have found a fix for hard shifting

[HeberRam]

Vaughn..... Do you know the costs for the Redline MTL and local supplier??? Did you add any other "moose" juice? I will be installing fast coolers this weekend and still debating on stock trans flluid with ER "moose" juice or straight Redline... . Need to find local supplier.



Thanks, Steve

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Frank sez:



"Considering the replacement cost of the NV-5600, I didn't think it was worth experimenting with different kinds of lubrication. "



THAT is pretty much the conclusion I have come to as well... (better late than never!)



5600's use "just" a 5-30 motor oil?



With all due respect, *I* seriously doubt it myself - it *might* have many of the properties of a 5-30 motor oil - and some fellas might use motor oil, synthetic or otherwise, with at least some degree of sucess - but for how long and how many miles? Only time will tell...



Redline makes good stuff too - and at least Vaughn thinks it does better in his case - but still, if I can get the correct, NV and DC spec stuff easily and at the same approximate price, why screw around with unknown and non-spec stuff?



For some reason, NV and DC specify a VERY narrow range of lube for the NV-5600 - I can only assume they have their reasons for doing so, and NO, I *don't* think it's simply so they can sell us their own stuff!



DC is far less specific and restrictive in differential, engine and automatic transmission fluids - they MIGHT just have a good reason to be more exclusive in the 6-speed lube - and it might take 3-400 thousand miles to more fully understand and appreciate their reasoning...

 

[Sled Puller]

Re: Like I said: RedLine, RedLine, RedLine!

Originally posted by Vaughn MacKenzie



I ran the stock lube 50,000 and it was very filthy & black after that many miles. It had a lot of city driving, IE, heavy use of ALL gears. I had shifting problems since new (hard to get into 1st or reverse, heavy shifting, notchy).



At 50,000 I drained the stock crud and went with Amsoil 5W30. Shifting improved somewhat, but after 15k it was back to its old ways. I ran the 5W30 for 30K then drained it last week. It was fairly dirty and looked fairly metallicized.





Vaughn

Amsoil cannot replace lost metal! hehehhe



Amsoil recommends the Series 3000 5w-30 for that transmission. As with any Amsoil lube, their warranty takes over when the factory one runs out, or if the service department tries to void your warranty, Amsoil will contact them and get it straightened out.

To my knowledge, noone on this site has lost any warranty, from using Amsoil products, extending drains, etc. If they have, they did not contact Amsoil, else it would have been taken care of.





I trust Vaughns judgement- if he says his transmission shifts better with the Redline, if I had a 6 speed, I would try it.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Just as a follow-up on my own screwup with transmission lube - swapped out the Amsoil, replaced with the DC spec stuff - first shift, cold, PERFECT!



No grind, any gear, any temp...



Lesson learned... .



The Amsoil will be saved and eventually used in the differential, since it was only used in the transmission for about 50 miles, was visually clean as when it came outta the original bottles, and IS well suited for differential dervice...

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

Just as a follow-up on my own screwup with transmission lube - swapped out the Amsoil, replaced with the DC spec stuff - first shift, cold, PERFECT!



No grind, any gear, any temp...



Lesson learned... .



The Amsoil will be saved and eventually used in the differential, since it was only used in the transmission for about 50 miles, was visually clean as when it came outta the original bottles, and IS well suited for differential dervice...

Gary what was the DC spec stuff? Some on here were saying that DC stuff was now different or made by someone else and hard to get. Is this true??



PS Glad you got it fixed. Man that would of been a bad deal if you left it in and it screwed up the old 6 speed. That's why I agree with your post where you indicated that if you are going against DC recommendation (in the future) it better be well worth it and results documented.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

The "latest" stuff from DC appears to be from a dfferent supplier - as we have been told, Texaco doesn't seem to making the stuff for DC any more - and there is NO reference antwhere in the bottle I can see that in any way references who the actual refiner/supplier might be...



It carries 2 different numbers - 04874464 - which is also called for under the Texaco brand on the stickers on my NV-5600 - and also a MS-9224 number, which is also the spec number for lube in the '03 dodge 3500 transmission, and one of the 5-speed manuals...



I hadn't heard of a "3500" transmission - if it isn't a 5-speed, what is it, a new number for the latest 6-speed?



Obviously, there's LOTS of varied opinions on the "best" lubes to use in our trucks - and I have no axe to grind as to one vs the other - but unless and until a refiner clearly states their stuff "meets or exceeds" the DC spec for my 6-speed, I'll likely stick with what DC sells - but if such "better" lube meeting DC spec DOES show up, I'd have no qualms about using it - especially one that was shown to be superior in towing situations...

 

[CRegal]

Originally posted by HeberRam

Vaughn..... Do you know the costs for the Redline MTL and local supplier??? Did you add any other "moose" juice? I will be installing fast coolers this weekend and still debating on stock trans flluid with ER "moose" juice or straight Redline... . Need to find local supplier.



Thanks, Steve

Steve, here is a link... .



http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/redline4.htm

 

[tarussell]

Gary - In referance to your question on the 3500 transmission -- To the best of my knowledge it is Dodge's name for their "light duty" 5-speed in the half-ton trucks. I think they are Getrag gear boxes.



Thomas

 

[Shelby Griggs]

I have posted this before, but this debate just seems to live on. The DC fluid is the same fluid used in certain GM transaxles. I have a 1989 Grand Am, with 225,000 miles that I have maintained at roughly 30K intervals. The transaxle has never given me a lick of trouble, I think the OEM fluid is probably just fine. Regular changes, say on 50K intervals, and I think the 6 speed will last a long time. I tried a 5-30 engine oil (non-syn) on the first change in my car. Obviously that was not the correct lube for the Grand Am, and I doubt it is for the 6 speed in our trucks. I left it in the Grand Am for about 20 miles and then drained. The shifting was noticeably worse. I realize that we are talking two different transmissions, but I feel that I have some extended experience using the OEM fluid. I will stick with the OEM, thank you.



Shelby

 

[amsoilman]

As someone has already mentioned, the NV3500 is a 5-speed medium duty transmission used in the Dodge trucks. It like the NV-5600 requires a lube that meets the MS-9224 Chrysler specs.

The Amsoil 5W-30 meets that spec!

Here is what my 03' Repair manual says regarding NV-5600 fluid.



NOTE: DaimlerChrysler recommends using Mopar lubricants or lubricants of equal quality.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Shelby sez:



"The DC fluid is the same fluid used in certain GM transaxles. "



Where exactly do you find that info? Any pointers or references? Not being a smart***. just curious, since this DC 6-speed lube seems so mysterious - does GM somehow cross-reference to a DC lube?



Wayne sez:



"NV-5600 requires a lube that meets the MS-9224 Chrysler specs.

The Amsoil 5W-30 meets that spec!"



Is that from the Amsoil website? if not, is there some other respectable pointer?



Here's all I could find on the Amsoil site about their 5w-30 specs:



==============================



Recommended for Applications Requiring the Following Specifications:



API SL, SH, SJ, CF



ILSAC GF-1, GF-2, GF-3



Chrysler MS 6395 H



Ford WSS M2C-153G



GM 4718-M



VW 500. 00, 501. 01, and 505. 00



Energy Conserving II



Mercedes-Benz AG 226. 1



==================================





I don't see any reference there concerning Chrysler MS-9224 spec as required by DC for the NV5600 - did I miss something?

 

[jmeehan]

G. M. part no. 12345349 is what G. M. sells for?. I found the part number on here and went to the local chevy place and bought the last 5 qts. they had. I hit them up for a case discount and paid less then $8. 00 a qt.

Texaco never heard of it when I gave them their part number.

Chevron said it's manufactured by Mitsubishi? Could be, Mitsu & Dodge are selling some of each others cars.

The G. M. stuff looked like what came out of my transmission, but didn't fix my hard shifting from a stop. I'm afraid I have clutch and/or synchro problems.

It's still drivable so I'll live with it while I do some more research or until I have the time and money to fix or replace/upgrade the transmission.



It was pointed out to me that GM uses a ZF six speed in their pick-ups, so I don't know what the fluid I put in my truck is used in. Maybe the Camaro transmission's that Gary mentioned earlier.

 

[athompson]

After some research, it appears that Penzoil/Quaker State is the current supplier of the MS-9224 spec. They are the only ones that claim to meet that spec (Synchromesh Fluid).



Not Texaco. Not Redline. Not Amsoil. Just Penzoil/Quaker State. Not say they don't work as well or better. For those who care about warranty issues, it looks like it's Penzoil/Quaker State.

 

[Diesel Freak]

I must agree with Vaughn! Red Line MTL is the way to go!

But you must draw your own conclusions



Red Line MTL Specs.



API Service: GL4

SAE Grade (gear): 70W80

SAE Grade (engine): 5W30

Vis @100C, cSt: 10. 2

Vis @ 40C, cSt: 50. 8

Viscosity Index: 171

Brookfielf Vis @-40C, Poise: 160

Pour point: -58F

Flash Point: 450F



Texaco 1874 MTX Specs.



GM Spec: 9985648

Chrysler Spec:MS-9224



Vis @ 100C, cSt: 9. 08

Vis @ 40C, cSt: 41. 6

Viscosity Index: 208

Viscosity @ -40C, Poise: 256

Pour Point: -50F

Flash Point: 385F



Amsoil SAE 5W30 Synthetic Motor Oil Specs.



API SL, SH, SJ, CF

Chrysler MS 6395 H

GM 4718-M

Energy Conserving II



Vis @ 100C, cSt: 11. 7

Vis @ 40C, cSt: 63. 4

Viscosity Index: 182

Viscosity @ -40C, Poise: "not given"

however it states "Viscosity @ -25°C, Poise: 255"

Pour Point: -51F

Flash Point: 446F

 

[Hohn]

6-speed fluid

I have been tracking this thread, and there are some pretty good arguments on both sides.



One side argues that DC spends the money on research and *has* to have a reason to spec a mystery fluid. Yet, this ultra-special fluid is no longer made by the original supplier, and someone else makes it (if I read correctly). I wonder if that decision was based on the new supplier's ability to make a superior lube, or if it was just cheaper?

Moreover, a manual transmission's fluid had pretty much the same job in EVERY fully-synchronized trans. The only real difference in specs SEEMS to be compatibility with different materials (i. e. seals, fiber synchros, brass synchros, etc).

I find that you can often get to the bottom of things by looking at the role money plays in pros and cons. By requiring a narrow-spec fluid, DC brings in more money to their business partner (and themselves via Dodge dealers who sell it). Also, as we generally agree, DC wants to sell new vehicles (or parts), so they don't have a huge incentive to provide the very best. The reason an aftermarket of any kind even exists, is because people find that there is something better out there that the factory didn't (or couldn't because of gov't regulation) do originally.

Now, I look at the money interest of a vendor like Redline Oil. Yes, they too are out to make money, but the synthetic fluid market is *extremely* competitive, and people are very brand loyal to their fluids. If you doubt this, just go find one of the million oil war threads here on the TDR. It appears to me that in the competitive market of synthetics, your reputation is your business. If your product is crap, you will be out of business VERY soon. Thus, a vendor like Redline has a MUCH greater incentive to provide a quality product than does a megacorporation (like DC) that can rest on it's laurels.

I guess it boils down to who you trust. Personally, I trust the little guy fighting for survival more than the fat cat who can hide behind endless layers of customer no-service claims and regional offices, and lawyers.

Therefore, i will continue to use non-spec fluids, until someone can show me EXACTLY WHY i have to use the manufacturer's spec, instead of just "I think that it's a good idea".



Until they start adding flux capacitors and liquid helium superconductors to the transmission, i think it's simple enough that an aftermarket company can make a better product with their better incentive to excel.



Sorry so long. I don't often post short ones, though-- you guys all know that...



HOHN

 

[Pit Bull]

Hohn, I see your logic. Here is another take. DC now offers a 7 year 70K mile warranty on this transmission with this fluid. They also state that it does not need to be changed, WOW. If I wanted to, I could buy this truck and tow everyday at max weight and not have to change the fluid. If anything broke in the 6 speed DC would have to fix it for free for the first 70K miles. Based on the expense that this type of warranty could hand to DC I think they feel that this special fluid is really good stuff and (the right stuff). If they did not feel that way it makes them more money if they would require a fluid change every 20K miles. Odds are in their favor that at least 50% of the owners would have DC perform this service at a profit to their dealers, plus fewer warranty claims. Also because a different supplier makes the fluid does not indicate a problem, the supplier is required to make it to DC spec's. Just a look at this from another view point

 

[tarussell]

85CJ - I got a question about the 5600 in the GM trucks. What application is it in ? I thought that GM and Ford were using versions of the ZF 6-speed that is way different from the NV-5600.



I am not doubting that GM is using it ; I just never heard of GM using any other 6-speed in the 2500HD/3500 and the lower end of the medium duty trucks .



If GM does sell our fluid for the 5600 - that would be great because I can get a substantial discount at GM; but I want to make sure that the fluid is one and the same.



Thomas

 

[Sled Puller]

Pit Bull,

Good point, but another take would be:

DC could be looking at $200 for a couple oil changes, OR $2500+ for a new transmission AFTER the warranty expires!

Follow the money trail... .....

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by Sled Puller

Pit Bull,

Good point, but another take would be:

DC could be looking at $200 for a couple oil changes, OR $2500+ for a new transmission AFTER the warranty expires!

Follow the money trail... .....

That could be, but if I'm DC and that is my reasoning, I would require a fluid change at 30K and 60K, so anyone that did not do the changes voided their warranty and I don't have to worry about some of the pre- 70K under possible warranty failures. I still make money at 150K with some of the others if the transmission is that bad.



If I believed any of this I would never buy their product and they would of been out of business long ago. JMO

 

[jmeehan]

Originally posted by tarussell

85CJ - I got a question about the 5600 in the GM trucks. What application is it in ? I thought that GM and Ford were using versions of the ZF 6-speed that is way different from the NV-5600.

Now that you mention it I think you may be right about GM using a ZF transmission. I heard once which six speed they use, but it's been awhile and I don't remember for sure. Then I read on here GM can supply our transmission oil, so I guess I assumed they used the NV 5600. I know they use the NV 4500, and they were partners with DC in New Venture, so there again I was assuming...



As I mentioned, the fluid looked like what came out of my transmission, and it is labled as a syncromesh fluid. Time will tell.



I just looked up chevy's 2500HD on the Edmunds site, the '02's did use a ZF six speed. Thanks for setting me straight before I steer to many people wrong. Now I just need to figure out what GM uses this fluid for.