Mitchells pulling clutch?

[Turbo Trucker]

Do you have to also get the input shaft with this? Is the input shaft a do-it-yourself installation? My Southbend broke and I would like to get something that absolutely will not break. I am constantly pulling 15-20k pounds.

 

[Blackdog]

Are you talkin about the 1 3/8" Input shaft assembly for the 5 speed???, no you do not have to upgrade to that BUT, trust me it will make you sleep alot easier at night. And your right b/c that clutch is basically indestructable.

 

[Turbo Trucker]

I'm not too worried about the input shaft, my motor is 100% stock for now.



Is this a dual disk clutch? Does the center have springs? Does it use the stock flywheel?





Thanks

 

[Sled Puller]

Yes, it is dual, no it does not have springs. I am pretty certain it uses a stock flywheel, but I could be wrong.



I would definately go for the big input shaft, because that is the next weak link.

Merrick on this site posted just last week his Father broke their input shaft with the STOCK SPRUNG CLUTCH. Towing about what you do. They then proceeded to rip the center out of a SBC, the input held that time, but I bet it is twisted slightly.



Call Mitchell and ask how their Hot Shot customers like the clutch and input shaft, not to mention the sled pullers.



Mine is more streetable than my last two single discs. They were $600 amd $950. Both junk.

Good luck in your search!



gene

 

[South Bend Clutch]

Wes,



You do not have to go that drastic! Also the cost of the complete conversion that you are talking about is very expensive. Besides, the long term damage that you WILL do to your transmission and drivetrain will shock you. We have recently come up with a way to put the 13" ETH clutch in your truck with out having to do any modifications. The kit comes with a new flywheel. Since you have already spent money with me I will cut you a great deal to replace the Con O. We are so confident with this setup that if you rip the center out of this clutch setup towing that I will refund your money, give you $200. for labor, and give you $500. towards someone else's clutch.



Gene, I think if you talk to Merrick you will find out that his dad had transmission problems and the damage to his input shaft was the spline on the inside part of the shaft where it goes into the transmission. I believe you posted some pictures on this issue a few months ago. I have still yet to here of anyone breaking an input shaft with a sprung hub disc but I could be wrong.



Over time we have found that we can make the 12 1/4" clutch hold the HP and still maintain a soft peddle and smooth engagement but when heavy hauling comes into play a larger cent of disc is required especialy coupled with higher HP. This is why we designed this conversion about two months ago. It has already proven itself for over a year now with our MU 2001 Con OFE and FE... . we just had to figure out an inexspencive way to get it into the trucks that had the 12 1/4" in them. Kwick Kurt has been tring to break this clutch for the past 80 thousand miles in his truck. Just give him a call.



Peter





Wes, I am sorry that I didn't say this at the top of the post!!!



Sorry for the problem!! I will do what it takes to make our product work in your truck so you can feal comfortable again.

 

[Texas Diesel]

Way to go Peter! My OFE is doing fine!

 

[Don M]

Many of the doubles rattle and make noise when not engaged.



Don~

 

[Blackdog]

Yea, but real trucks are supposed to rattle... . lol. Take care guys!

 

[Sled Puller]

Peter,

This long term damage you keep speaking of I think would be showing up in oil samples.



Maybe we are all running a better lube?



The only damage I have heard of with unsprungs, are stock input shafts. Not because of springs, but because the clutch HOOKED instead of failing. Next weak link after bad clutches in the line up- input shaft.



I can't say there is no extra wear from an unsprung hub, but it is very minimal, to the point of unnoticeable.

I made the mistake of listening to the hub BS from a another vendor(NOT SBC) trying to sell me a clutch-I was suckered in to the tune of $$$$$$$ and had nothing to show for it.

Forgive me for being hostile when I hear it again, not your fault.



But EE's clutch is the closest thing to unbreakable you can get that is sold to Dodge Cummins owners, which is a tall order.

It may be overkill in this situation, we will see!

 

[South Bend Clutch]

Gene,



I am sure that you and the company that you are dealing with have more clutch knowledge then our company. Gene, Try calling people that are not trying to sell you a product and that actually build or design clutches and transmissions for the diesel. Better yet, ask your friend Eric McBride (Stacked & Jacked). Eric has ran a rigid clutch for around three years until he went to that dang "A" word with ATS. Ask him how many times he had to fix his transmission. Thing is, what makes him different then you is he expected it, and when he was in the market for a clutch this was the only clutch he knew that could hold his power but not without consequences. Gene, you are only fooling yourself and your fellow TDR members if you think and as you advertise that the clutch that you have is the end all last clutch you will ever have to buy. You say that you can go to all the sled pulls that you want and never hurt your clutch. YOU’RE LAST CLUTCH RIGHT? Do you really think that the company that you are dealing with have never had to replace their clutch? If you do my friend, I am sorry. I deal with sled pullers all the time and their clutches are WAY bigger and WAY stronger then what you have in your truck. I believe you have a 10 1/2" to 11" double disc in yours. I have worked on 17" triple disc with a beginning clamp load of 8000lb with centrifugal rollers and they can go through these clutches once a year some times twice. The difference again is that they EXPECT to. You should not try and set yourself up for disappointment and convince others to believe your fantasy. Gene, I am not trying to attack you but only to educate you. I would hate to see you as upset as you have been when it comes time to replace or repair the damage. Sled pulling is a mans game with deep pockets. It sounds like your truck is awesome and I hope you do well and kick a few loud mouths butt. But you need to expect the damage that WILL happen in the drive train department.



I hope you pull the sled off the track.





Peter

 

[South Bend Clutch]

By the way Gene, for what you are trying to accomplish... . the clutch you have is the BEST choice on the market as of now.



Good luck!!!



Peter

 

[Sled Puller]

Peter,.

I hope Eric chimes in here and explains his transmission problems, as they were NOT clutch related.



All I need to go by is the hundreds of posts of mangled, slipped, ripped up clutches(which take input shafts, bell housings, hydraulic units with them), vs the 100% satisified customers who are running my clutch.



I expect to tear up parts, but I do not expect anything to happen because of a ridgid disc.



Do I think Mitchell's will last forever?

NO.

Not with what we are doing.

But the prototype had 80 hooks on it, plus many miles of trailer toting and daily driving, and mine is better than that one. It was taken out because the stock input shaft had TWISTED, and replaced with the HD shaft.

That is a clutch that can hook.



Can anyone out here running any other clutch better that?



And BTW, the thing that got me over my fear of ridgid discs, was someone who did not have a product to sell me!!!



*************************************************





And your quote:

"I am sure that you and the company that you are dealing with have more clutch knowledge then our company. Gene, Try calling people that are not trying to sell you a product and that actually build or design clutches and transmissions for the diesel. ""

****************************************************







You sarcasm spills out, Peter, try telling the TDR how many clutches you have had to warranty.



Why is that such a secret?



Anybody with any amount of REAL power and a little abuse, may as well give up on single discs, at this time.



You guys over 400 hp are only kidding yourselves, the single disc will fail sooner rather than later if you actually USE the power.





Maybe we can get this going like the auto threads!!!!!!



Gene

 

[South Bend Clutch]

And BTW, the thing that got me over my fear of ridgid discs, was someone who did not have a product to sell me!!!

This is because I am not willing to sell anything to make a buck with no responsibility. Gene I have 1000's of clutches out in the dodge diesel world. How many does the company that you are dealing with have out there? And how long? That is what I thought!! You NEVER compare apples to apples. If you tare your clutch up by the end of the year, will they warranty it for you? Because you have stated more then once on this site that this clutch will last forever. Now I see that you are retracting that. Hmmm. You have not heard of ONE and I repeat ONE of my 13" clutches getting ripped apart and they are in many, many trucks way over 400 hp. You think if you post something it must be fact but my friend you are way off base. Get your facts straight before you make yourself the fool. BY the way they are single discs and they are sprung hubbed.



Gene, I do not want to make this a Pi$$ing match and I will not post to this thread again but I would like to leave you with this. None of what you all are doing with the sled pulling is sanctioned and until it is I would not like to be a part of it!!!! I have been to your sled pulls and I see people standing on the side of the track going "cool". Now, if and when someone gets hurt... . who will be the fool? The power levels that you guys are taking these trucks to make it NOT a weekend fun thing anymore. Something needs and has to be done about the safety factors. AND, for you not to notice this is why I am glad you are working with the other guy!!!!!!!!





Peter

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by South Bend Clutch







This is because I am not willing to sell anything to make a buck with no responsibility. Gene I have 1000's of clutches out in the dodge diesel world. How many does the company that you are dealing with have out there? And how long? That is what I thought!! You NEVER compare apples to apples. If you tare your clutch up by the end of the year, will they warranty it for you? Because you have stated more then once on this site that this clutch will last forever. Now I see that you are retracting that. Hmmm. You have not heard of ONE and I repeat ONE of my 13" clutches getting ripped apart and they are in many, many trucks way over 400 hp. You think if you post something it must be fact but my friend you are way off base. Get your facts straight before you make yourself the fool. BY the way they are single discs and they are sprung hubbed.



Gene, I do not want to make this a Pi$$ing match and I will not post to this thread again but I would like to leave you with this. None of what you all are doing with the sled pulling is sanctioned and until it is I would not like to be a part of it!!!! I have been to your sled pulls and I see people standing on the side of the track going "cool". Now, if and when someone gets hurt... . who will be the fool? The power levels that you guys are taking these trucks to make it NOT a weekend fun thing anymore. Something needs and has to be done about the safety factors. AND, for you not to notice this is why I am glad you are working with the other guy!!!!!!!!





Peter

Peter,

You are so far out of line it is pathetic.



Except for "apples to apples" you are right there. We sure aren't.

Mitchell's clutch is for absolute max power/abuse. For guys who are SICK of replacing clutches, FREE ones or not.



You have taken most of what I have said over the last few months out of context.



Every post you have ever directed at me has had a smart ass tone to it.



When you have a clutch that can handle what we do it, let us know, until then, have fun replaceing clutches under warranty in trucks that you HOPE they don't pull with.



And taking cheap shots at pullers is just looooooowwww.



Gene:-{}

 

[Sled Puller]

FUNNY YOU SHOULD MENTION SANCTIONED



*******************************************



APPROVED BY A. T. P. A. = MARCH 28, 2002

PRO STOCK DIESEL TRUCK PULLING

A. T. P. A. RULES for 2002

GENERAL RULES:

 THIS IS A PRO STOCK DIESEL PICK-UP CLASS AVAILABLE TO OWNERS OF TRUCKS THAT ARE STILL LEGAL TO BE USED ON THE HIGHWAY. IF YOUR TRUCK IS STILL STREET LEGAL YOU CAN ENTER THIS CLASS. YOUR REGISTRATION PAPERS ARE REQUIRED TO PROVE THAT THE TRUCK IS STILL LICENSED FOR AND INSURED FOR STREET USE. A LICENSE PLATE IS REQUIRED TO BE AFFIXED TO THE TRUCK. REGISTRATION PAPERS AND LICENSE PLATE MUST MATCH. TRUCKS MAY BE HAULED TO THE PULL.



 NO STUDDED TIRES, TIRE CHAINS OR ANY TIRE NOT SPECIFICALLY INTENDED FOR STREET USE ARE NOT PERMITTED. ALL TIRES MUST CARRY A D. O. T. NUMBER ON THE SIDEWALL. CUT, ALTERED OR SHARPENED TIRES ARE PERMITTED. TIRES HEIGHT MAY NOT EXCEED 35 INCHES. TIRES MAY NOT BE FILLED WITH ANY BALLAST. DUAL REAR WHEELS ARE PERMITTED IN 2002 FOR ONE-YEAR TRIAL.



 WEIGHT CLASS IS 8000 POUNDS. AFTERMARKET BUMPERS, BRUSH GUARDS, SNOW PLOW FRAMES, WINCHES AND THE LIKE WILL BE PERMITTED IN THIS CLASS. WEIGHTS MAY BE USED BUT MUST BE COMPLETELY INSIDE THE BODY OF THE TRUCK AND MUST BE SECURED. NO WEIGHT BARS OR HANGING WEIGHTS WILL BE PERMITTED. NOTHING MAY EXTEND MORE THAN EIGHTEEN (18”) INCHES IN FRONT OF THE MOST FORWARD POINT OF THE OEM GRILL LOCATION.



 THE HITCH POINT WILL BE FROM A “REESE TYPE” FRAME HITCH. NO OTHER TYPES OF HITCHES ARE PERMITTED. HITCH POINT MAY NOT BE MORE THAN 26" FROM GROUND. HITCH POINT MUST BE EASILY ACCESSED. NO ANGLED, LEVER, PIVOT, AXIS OR OTHER TYPES OF ‘TRICK’ HITCHES ARE ALLOWED AND THE HITCH MUST BE STATIONARY IN ALL DIRECTIONS. THE HITCH POINT MAY BE NO SHORTER THAN 36% OF THE WHEELBASE MEASURED FROM THE CENTER LINE OF THE REAR AXLE. THE HOLE FOR HITCHING MUST ACCOMMODATE A MINIMUM OF 3. 5 INCHES ACROSS. EACH TRUCK DRIVER MUST SUPPLY HIS OWN TWISTED CLEVIS, IF NECESSARY TO HOOK.



 ALL ENGINE BLOCKS MUST HAVE BEEN MANUFACTURED AND AVAILABLE AS A FACTORY OPTION ON STANDARD ONE-TON or SMALLER PICK-UP TRUCKS. ENGINE MUST REMAIN IN THE STOCK LOCATION AS INTENDED BY THE MANUFACTURER. NO ENGINE SWAPS BETWEEN MANUFACTURERS ARE PERMITTED. NO ALUMINUM ENGINE BLOCKS OR HEADS ARE PERMITTED UNLESS O. E. M. PUMP DIESEL IS THE ONLY FUEL PERMITTED. ABSOLUTELY NO ALCOHOL, NITROUS OXIDE OR OTHER OXYGEN EXTENDERS INCLUDING PROPANE ARE ALLOWED. NO OVERHEAD CAMS UNLESS OEM. AN OEM STOCK HEAD FOR THE SERIES OF ENGINE USED IS REQUIRED. MUST UTILIZE OEM INTAKE ONLY. NO DECK PLATES ARE PERMITTED.



 ALL EXHAUST MUST EXIT EITHER STRAIGHT UP OR STRAIGHT DOWN. IF EXHAUST EXITS BEHIND THE REAR WHEEL AN EXHAUST TURN-OUT MUST BE POINTED STRAIGHT DOWN. EXHAUST MAY NOT EXIT TOWARD THE SPECTATORS IN ANY WAY.



 TRUCK MUST HAVE A WORKING SUSPENSION BOTH FRONT AND REAR AND THE SUSPENSION MUST BE LEGAL FOR STREET USE. NO BLOCKED SUSPENSIONS. NO SOLID SUSPENSIONS.



 A KILL SWITCH IS REQUIRED ON ANY TRUCK WITH ENGINE HORSEPOWER THAT IS MORE THAN 20% GREATER THAN THE MANUFACTURER’S SPECS.



 AFTERMARKET TRANSMISSIONS OR TRANSFER CASES ARE NOT PERMITTED.







APPROVED BY A. T. P. A. = MARCH 28, 2002

PRO STOCK DEISEL TRUCK PULLING

A. T. P. A. FULL PULL PRODUCTIONS RULES for 2002



OPERATION OF CONTEST RULES:



 SAFETY ISSUES:

1. DRIVE SHAFT LOOPS (3/8” ALUMINUM OR 5/16” STEEL) ARE REQUIRED WITH AT LEAST THREE LOOPS ON EACH DRIVE SHAFT NO MORE THAN TWO INCHES FROM THE SHAFT. LOOPS ARE REQUIRED ON ANY TRUCK WITH ENGINE HORSEPOWER THAT IS MORE THAN 20% GREATER THAN THE MANUFACTURER’S SPECIFICATIONS.

2. ALL TRUCKS MUST HAVE WORKING BRAKES. DOORS MUST OPEN AND CLOSE. SEAT BELTS ARE REQUIRED TO BE USED. A FIRE EXTINGUISHER IN WORKING CONDITION IS REQUIRED TO BE WITHIN EASY REACH OF THE DRIVER. ALL DRIVERS MUST WEAR A HELMET WHILE IN COMPETITION.



 EACH DRIVER WILL DRAW FOR PULLING POSITION AT REGISTRATION. ALL REGISTRATION WILL CLOSE THIRTY MINUTES BEFORE THE LISTED STARTING TIME OF THE PULL.



 DRIVER ONLY WILL BE ADMITTED TO THE PIT AREA AT NO CHARGE. IF TRUCK IS “HAULED IN”, A SECOND PERSON WILL BE ADMITTED FREE OF CHARGE. ALL OTHERS MUST PAY NORMAL PIT GATE ADMISSION AND SIGN THE INSURANCE WAIVER.



 ENTRY FEE SHALL BE $20. 00. CASH ONLY WILL BE ACCEPTED. EACH TRUCK MAY BE ENTERED ONLY ONCE. NO MULTIPLE DRIVERS. ALL DRIVERS WILL BE REQUIRED TO PRODUCE A VALID PHOTO DRIVER'S LICENSE AT THE TIME OF REGISTRATION.



 THERE IS NO TEST HOOK IN ANY CLASS AT AN A. T. P. A. OPERATED PULL BEGINNING IN 2002. IF THE SLED IS RESET ALL PULLERS THAT HAVE PREVIOUSLY HOOKED WILL HAVE THE OPTION TO RETURN AND RE-HOOK IMMEDIATELY OR TO DROP LAST. A FLOATING FINISH LINE MAY BE USED AT THE DISCRETION OF THE DIRECTOR OF COMPETITION. IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE DRIVER TO KNOW THE RULES AT EACH PULL.



 ANY TRUCK THAT IS NOT IN LINE AND READY TO PULL WHEN CALLED WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DISQUALIFIED. NO REFUNDS!!.



 ANY/ALL TRUCKS MAY BE REQUIRED TO RETURN TO THE SCALES AND RE-WEIGH AT ANY TIME.

ANY/ALL TRUCKS MAY BE REQUIRED TO UNDERGO AN ADDITIONAL TECH INSPECTION AT ANY TIME.

THESE DECISIONS ARE AT THE OPTION OF THE DIRECTOR COMPETITION OR THE HEAD FLAGMAN



 OPERATION OF CONTEST WILL REVERT TO THE RULES OF THE AMERICAN TRACTOR PULLERS ASSOCIATION (ATPA) IN INSTANCES NOT SPECIFIED HEREIN.



 DECISION OF THE TRACK OFFICIALS AND/OR DIRECTOR OF COMPETITION IS FINAL. NO APPEAL TO THE MANAGEMENT OF THE FAIR WILL BE HEARD OR CONSIDERED.



 MINIMUM PURSE AT AN A. T. P. A. SANCTIONED EVENT WILL BE $600. 00 PER CLASS WITH THE SUGGESTED PURSE BREAK-DOWN AS FOLLOWS:

$225 - $150 - $100 - $75 - $50

:--) :{

 

[Don M]

Im guessing that Peter is concerned about the clutches coming apart during the pulling events and nothing has been done to protect the driver or the spectators from the violent and sometimes deadly outcomes when clutchs explode.

Other racing organizations have rules on transmission blankets, scatter sheilds, etc to address the potential problems. The rules I read above do nothing to protect the driver nor crowd from a clutch or transmission explosion.

Its pretty simple math to figure out the forces involved when or if one comes apart while dragging a sled of that weight with the HP the trucks are making now.



Gene, you got lucky to just melt the clutch you toasted by slipping it too much trying to get it to drag the weight with less than enough HP to do it with. If one comes apart on you... you could be injured or have less than two feet one day. Ask Don Garlits about clutchs that blow up and when it happens if feet parts can come up missing.



Don~

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by Don M





Gene, you got lucky to just melt the clutch you toasted by slipping it too much trying to get it to drag the weight with less than enough HP to do it with. If one comes apart on you... you could be injured or have less than two feet one day. Ask Don Garlits about clutchs that blow up and when it happens if feet parts can come up missing.



Don~

Don,

I appreciate your concerns for my feet, but please don't preach Joe Donnelys gospel to me, he has NO IDEA how I drove that clutch, and TRUST me, it had NOTHING to do with 'low power"

It had everything to do with an underengineered clutch that not on its best day could ever hold"609" if somebody ever stood on it.





I SHOULD have been worried about Joes clutch coming apart, very scary indeed.



However, low speed diesels are not Big Daddys ride, now are they?

I don't think I will kill a clutch if Dave has not.



I expect scatter shields for next year. I am not going to second guess the ATPA on a set of safety rules, they have been around a while.

 

[Don M]

Joe did not say anything about the way you drove the clutch... you did. You have spoken about slipping the clutch to help get it down the track in the past.

Most clutchs are not designed to slip and re-grab when yanking that much weight around.

Joes modified Sachs will hold the power, but you have to let it engage and grab first. Generally, this works best if you let the clutch pedal out completely and not try to slip it with 40,000 plus pounds behind you.



No, it aint Big Daddies ride, but remember that force = mass multiplied by acceleration. A clutch coming apart in our application can do damage to life or limb. I would not call concern or second guessing the ATPA in this scenerio a bad idea. Do the math and then rememeber the thin sheet metal between you and the transmission and the material the bell housing is made of before discounting my second guessing.



The parts dont always decide to fly downward or toward the ground. Sometimes they fly up toward you or out toward the crowd.



Im not preaching either, just some food for thought.



Don~

 

[Sled Puller]

Don,

You misread me.

I said I had to back off and WAIT for the clutch to hook, I never slipped on purpose tohaul, those are Joes words.



A clutch that cost that much should have at least spun the tires(they were small, all seasons) before the sled moved, that is not a tall order.

Coming out od the hole at 3000rpm is a tall order. I never did that.



You safety point is well taken.

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

>>don't preach Joe Donnelys gospel to me, he has NO IDEA how I drove that clutch, and TRUST me, it had NOTHING to do with 'low power"<<



OK Gene, you brought up my name (even though you can't or won't spell it correctly) and had to make this thread personal Now I have to defend myself from your post.



I do know you are the only one who ever MELTED the brass pucks, and brass alloys melt at 1400-1800 degrees. "Trust me" How much slipping does it take to get a clutch that hot, and who cannot tell that the clutch is being abused when it is slipped that much?



>>It had everything to do with an underengineered clutch that not on its best day could ever hold"609" if somebody ever stood on it. <<



Many folks witnessed the 609 hp runs on the Sachs clutch. That same clutch is still in Sickly, a year later.



I really don't understand why you continue this "my uncle can whip your dad" stuff. Peter makes good products and has excellent customer satisfaction. He hasn't "thrown any stones. " he offers customer service and technical information in his posts. His advice seems to me to be well-meant, and to inform folks that nothing lasts forever, and everything has inherent compromises that need to be considered. I expect Enterprise makes (or markets) good products, probably excellent for their chosen market segment (I have no personal experience with them). Please stop making these threads like the automatic transmission threads, with vendors or customers throwing accusations at others, necessitating soap-opera dialogues.



If one tries hard enough, one can find somebody who is dissatisfied with ANY vendor, rightly or wrongly.