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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Modifying fuel system so temperature input to VP44, 80* - 100*, your inputs.

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A small trans cooler would be ideal. But, WHERE am I going to find one here in Mexico



WHAT? No Walmarts in Mexico? :-laf



I would think any decent auto parts store im Mexico would have, or could get one for you - and you obviously have internet, and that works too... ;) :D
 
Gary,



Have you ever even visited Mexico??? I have been working on cars and trucks professionally for over 30 years. I live close to the largest auto parts store in central Mexico and get over there every week. I speak Spanish well! They do not carry transmission coolers in ANY size and do not special order parts. If they don't have it, it doesn't exist new on this side of the border!

Shipping auto parts into Mexico from the States is a nightmare. Many things shipped down never arrive. Besides, with the automatic transmission on my truck, there really isn't much of a place to put a traditional cooler.



Steve
 
Really, it is amazing what I CAN get down here! But, some things just do not exist.



Back to my original question. Would the copper tubing work? I could also make a manifold and run two or more smaller tubes if it would transfer the heat better.



Steve
 
Mundgyver,



You might enjoy this. A few years ago I desparately needed the upper radiator hose for an American built Dodge van. I could not find one down here anywhere... or anything I could even adapt! I wound up putting a tire patch on the hole and wrapping it in duct tape until I could get to the States to buy one. When I bought it, it said in large letters "Made in Mexico"!!!



A lot of the things made down here for US companies are put in sealed trucks and shipped to the States... and are not available in Mexico at ANY price!



Steve
 
Yeah Steve - We've been to Mexico, a couple of times...



Man, the bananas and avocados were DIRT cheap, and HUGE! :D



BUT no, didn't try to buy any transmission coolers! ;)
 
Here's something earlier from Hohn that got sorta overlooked:



"We long ago established in the legendary "pumps, lines, what not" thread that increasing fuel pressure does NOT increase the flow of fuel through the VP!!"



That's quite true - and I doubt any of us are trying to force MORE fuel thru the VP-44 than it is capable of, rather, we're/I am trying to maintain as MUCH of the maximum the VP will allow at ALL times - something the stock system probably was NOT doing when incoming fuel PSI was dropping to 10 PSI and less under heavy loads.



I have probably been one of the loudest shouters as to the pointlessness of trying to make radical increases in fuel delivery to the VP-44 - but that was related to fuel starvation, and BEFORE getting involved with the equally sensitive issue of VP-44 cooling - it wasn't that I was altogether WRONG on fuel delivery - I was just ignorant of other related issues such as we are now discussing.



IF we can provide enough fuel flow/PSI at ALL times thru the VP, we can maximize cooling effect over and above the stock fuel delivery system...
 
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... AND, I don't want to crow too loud this early in the game, but I connected my circulating fan to my VP outside ductwork and took a 15 mile drive - then shut the engine down and read VP temp - 112 degrees, VP top - 111 degrees.



Let the mess sit for 15 minutes with the fan still running, and NO increase in VP-44 temps - but underhood temps rose a good 20 degrees. I think my setup is gonna work!



2 days 'til our 1000+ mile RV trip... ;) :D
 
"We long ago established in the legendary "pumps, lines, what not" thread that increasing fuel pressure does NOT increase the flow of fuel through the VP!!"



That's quite true - and I doubt any of us are trying to force MORE fuel thru the VP-44 than it is capable of, rather, we're/I am trying to maintain as MUCH of the maximum the VP will allow at ALL times - something the stock system probably was NOT doing when incoming fuel PSI was dropping to 10 PSI and less under heavy loads.



IF we can provide enough fuel flow/PSI at ALL times thru the VP, we can maximize cooling effect over and above the stock fuel delivery system...




AND within reason the VP bypass is suppose to open at 14 psi. Now exactely where is that bypass? If it is internal to the VP then (within reason) some fuel over and above what the VP can digest will be bypassed. That bypassed fuel if it has entered the internals of the VP would logically carry heat away from whatever internal passages it goes through on it's way back to the tank. I do not know how much fuel the bypass will / can bypass safely either in volume or psi. I get the impression a couple of psi 1 - ?, maybe 2,3,4,5? over the 14 psi cracking pressure. I felt the fuel return line as it comes down fron the T on the back of the engine, and the line inside the rubber protector hose is not very big. The hose is sweged INSIDE the steel fuel return line which is . 310 OD. Steel fuel return line ID maybe . 25?, engine fuel return line is inside that so another . 05 for tube walls, would give about . 20 ID for the fuel return line from the engine. If anyone KNOWS or can actually measure the ID of the fuel return line off the T at the back of the engine it would be interesting.



I read in a thread that the max pressure to the VP under ideal conditions is 15 psi. I think TDR member Sticks wrote that. He apparently is in a apprentice diesel program somewhere in the midwest that rebuilds Bosch VP44's.



One interesting thread about HRVP's, Brett Williams of Industrial Injection, was discussing what fails on the VP44. The following is a snip of that discussion:



... ... But the real failures are caused by low transfer pressure. The steel diaphram inside the injection pump separates the high side pressure and the low side pressure. The low side pressure is directly affected by low transfer pressure. The steel diaphram is engineered so that the low side pressure off sets the high side pressure. The seals are made to work well with . 5mm movement or crush. When the low side pressure drops the movement or crush increases up to 2. 0mm that beats the seals flat and causes the high side pressure to leak by causing running problems and advance issues. The steel diaphram has been updated and is much stronger than the old ones that used to break all the time, which caused the same leaking problem. High injection pump temps. cause fuel presure to leak more. Thats why it dies or runs bad when it's hot... ...



Leading me to think that GOOD fuel pressure (12 - 15) psi ALL the time ( as Gary discussed) might take care of the diaphram distortion issue. Then the part about high injection pump temperatures is what we are addressing in this thread, keeping the fuel as cool as possible. I still have parts coming (temp gauge) and have to hook up the fan on the cooler.



I am starting to think that for the return line cooler crowd (includes me) that the OAT is the determining factor for input fuel temperatures when the tank is 1/2 + full. The mass of fuel is xx* and that is fed to the VP44. The return coolers only keep the mass of fuel at OAT or slightly less for reasonably full tanks. Maybe for less than 1/2 full tanks the return cooler might have more of an effect to keep fuel temps down.



The idea of coolers in the line before the VP may actually have a more beneficial effect on the VP and may be the better location (just my luck I would choose the lesser effective method :confused: ).



The question of what do you do after shutdown to control latent heat buildup is still perplexing. An air blower like Gary is working on? the solid state cooler chip ??? is working on? getting fuel through the VP somehow? Or get it as cool as possible prior to shutdown and that is the best we can do. Maybe idleing for x minutes or xxx* pre turbo as a rule of thumb?



Interesting stuff for sure.



Bob Weis
 
One interesting quote from the "Pumps, lines & whatnot" thread:



Gentlemen:

According to the Chrysler 1999 Ram Service manual, page 14-80, in the Overflow Valve Test procedure item 6, it says "Internal check valve should release, and air should pass through valve at 97 kPa (14-16 psi). If not, replace valve," Item 7 reads "Reduce regulated air pressure to 10 psi and observe valve. Valve should stay shut. If not, replace valve. "

If the valve is *closed* when pressure is less than 10 psi, then where is the fuel that is returned to the tank coming from?

TXRam, I tend to agree with your assessment that the bulk (if not all) of the fuel that MM is seeing returned to the tank is from the injector fuel drain manifold passage (page 14-77). However, the last paragraph of that section says "A small amount of fuel is returned from the fuel injectors, while a large amount (about 70% of supplied fuel) is returned from the fuel injection pump". How much is a "small amount"? A "large amount"?

MM, while I appreciate the tremendous effort that you and your cohorts are putting into this, I would be more comfortable with your results if your flow sensor was installed in the "fuel return line from pump overflow valve" (page 14-78 Fig. 17) between the fuel injection pump overflow valve and the 'T' at the rear of the engine.

I also think some of us are getting too carried away with Bernoulli's theorem; this just ain't that complicated. For a given restriction, pressure = flow.

There. I've said my piece; Flame away, boys!

Tom



------------------

Tom Glover - VE7DQ, C-GWTG

99 QC SLT, LWB 4x2, ETC/DGP, Wht/Agate, etc.



Note the mentioned test for the internal check valve, and imagine the potentially REDUCED fuel flow thru the VP-44 while that valve is CLOSED due to low pressure - and VP cooling as well...



"Theory" or no, Bob's temp meassurements seem to pretty well prove that adding reasonable fuel flow (over and above stock LP) to the VP-44 with an upgraded supply pump DOES reduce VP-44 operating temperatures!
 
I would think that once you shut down, that your are now not generating heat. The only reason we see a heat rise under the hood is we have no air flow over things nor do we have fuel flow to cool the VP. Some have refered to heat soak after shut down and are taking temp reading with a laser temp gun. One problem with these guns. They do work and I am not knocking them, as they will give you a good idea what is going on to some degree. But when we use one of these guns, we need to be aware of something called "emisitivity". I think I got spelled right. This is the property of the material that we are measuring. The surface of steel will give off a set heat reading to the gun. Now we move to what looks like steel, but may be aluminum or painted steel. Its emisitivity will be different than the steel that was just looked at in our prior example. Our readings will be off by some number, what exactly I do not know. This is why a direct contact probe would be my weapon of choice for taking heat reading in an around the engine compartment. My knowledge on this come from the industry I currently work in.



Back to our truck and the VP. I don't think heat soak is a big worry. Once we shut down, we are not generating heat and the only thing that can happen, is everything gets cooler. If we provide an assist for this, then we up the comfort factor, but I am not real worried about it. Just providing the VP with a little more volume of flow and maintaining pressure and input fuel temp at or below ambient temp works for me. I am at 150,000 + now and I don't think I will have a problem with the VP. I have probably just jinxed my self into a new VP with this thinking :D Food for thought guys.
 
"emissivity"



I went to Google, Jeeves and after 20 minutes I have no idea of what I read. I went to the ir temp gun specs and the emissivity is fixed at . 95. I have no idea of what that means either.



Seems to have something about the properties of a materials surface to absorbe or radiate something to do with wavelength.



HELP, not a clue! How does it apply to taking temperature measurements of things like VP44's, radiators, engine blocks, turbos, ie different materials.



Bob Weis
 
rweis said:
"emissivity"



I went to Google, Jeeves and after 20 minutes I have no idea of what I read. I went to the ir temp gun specs and the emissivity is fixed at . 95. I have no idea of what that means either.



Seems to have something about the properties of a materials surface to absorbe or radiate something to do with wavelength.



HELP, not a clue! How does it apply to taking temperature measurements of things like VP44's, radiators, engine blocks, turbos, ie different materials.



Bob Weis

Bob,



Emissivity is the reflective properties of a surface. It is affected by the material the surface is made of, the angle at which the energy to be reflected strikes the surface, coatings on the surface, and the temerature of the surface.



IR thermos take the last variable (temp) and use it to estimate a temperature. Why an estimate? Because they ignore all the other variables.



An emissitivity factor is a factor that considers the material and its coatings, while ignoring the viewing angle and temp. For example, the factor for polished aluminum is . 57, while black anodized aluminum is . 82. Cast iron is . 7 until it rusts, then it is . 61.



So IR thermos do a good job of measuring relative temp differences (is #6 cylinder hotter than #5), and only provide an approximate estimate of absolute temps.



What I think Mundgyver is saying is that if you want absolute temperature readings, for example "do not go over 150* or the electronics will fry", then measure the temp with a probe, not a IR thermo, because an IR thermo will not be accurate. On the other hand, if you say "I want to know how much cooler my VP is running after the fuel cooler is installed" then the IR thermo will give you a good relative temerature difference (difference between before and after) assuming you point the IR at the same place and hold it at the same angle for both readings.



Hope it helps.
 
I just installeed the Vulcan FTP relocating kit and found something interesting. The factory banjo bolts from the FTP to the Filter had holes that were not much larger than 1/4 in. This is an extreme reduction in flow, especially if the pressure drops.

The kit gives you a 1/2 in line from the pump to the VP.

So far so good.
 
Mundgyver said:
I would think that once you shut down, that your are now not generating heat. The only reason we see a heat rise under the hood is we have no air flow over things nor do we have fuel flow to cool the VP. Some have refered to heat soak after shut down and are taking temp reading with a laser temp gun. One problem with these guns. They do work and I am not knocking them, as they will give you a good idea what is going on to some degree. But when we use one of these guns, we need to be aware of something called "emisitivity". I think I got spelled right. This is the property of the material that we are measuring. The surface of steel will give off a set heat reading to the gun. Now we move to what looks like steel, but may be aluminum or painted steel. Its emisitivity will be different than the steel that was just looked at in our prior example. Our readings will be off by some number, what exactly I do not know. This is why a direct contact probe would be my weapon of choice for taking heat reading in an around the engine compartment. My knowledge on this come from the industry I currently work in.



Back to our truck and the VP. I don't think heat soak is a big worry. Once we shut down, we are not generating heat and the only thing that can happen, is everything gets cooler. If we provide an assist for this, then we up the comfort factor, but I am not real worried about it. Just providing the VP with a little more volume of flow and maintaining pressure and input fuel temp at or below ambient temp works for me. I am at 150,000 + now and I don't think I will have a problem with the VP. I have probably just jinxed my self into a new VP with this thinking :D Food for thought guys.



FIRST, on the "emisitivity" bit.



As far as I know, that refers to the reflectivity of the surface being measured by an infrared gun, and is easily demonstrated on surfaces where there is a shiny area next to a darker one on the same item. In that case, you WILL usually get differing readings from the gun, even tho' the surfaces are the same temperature.



Moral? Take the readings on the DARKEST areas you are attempting to measure if at all possible, and always try to get readings straight on - rather than at an angle - to the object being measured for best repeatable accuracy.



BUT, most of the surfaces we are dealing with here are NOT particularly reflective, and "emisitivity" not likely to be a big issue...



NOW, as to heat soak not being a big issue in regards to the VP-44, keep in mind that what we are attempting here, is REDUCTION of heat applied to the VP-44 - whether that comes from heated fuel, or underhood heat makes NO difference - heat is heat!



And believe me, once the cooling air from the fan and vehicle movement is stopped, underhood heat can easily quickly rise 30-50 degrees and higher. That heat comes both from the radiator, and also the engine and related components, like the VERY hot turbo and exhaust system. Plus, these Cummins are VERY large chunks of iron, and tend to hold/radiate heat FAR longer than smaller engines!



In the case of the VP-44, it sits within an inch or so of the engine block itself - which typically is at 180 degrees or more. The radiant heat that close definitely WILL heat the VP-44 - and the internal electronics this thread is mostly concerned with!



So yeah, heat soak IS a big issue - and as good as increased fuel flow and fuel line coolers are, they do NOTHING to address the issue of heat soak - and THAT is the reason for my interest and efforts with the outside cooling duct to the VP-44 - and so far, it seems to be working as hoped!



(EDIT)



When I get final readings on our RV trip next week with the current setup, I can easily move my underhood temperature sensor over to the VP-44 case, and gather readings there to confirm gun readings and get over-the-road readings as well...
 
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Gary - K7GLD said:
BUT, most of the surfaces we are dealing with here are NOT particularly reflective, and "emisitivity" not likely to be a big issue...



So yeah, heat soak IS a big issue - and as good as increased fuel flow and fuel line coolers are, they do NOTHING to address the issue of heat soak - and THAT is the reason for my interest and efforts with the outside cooling duct to the VP-44 - and so far, it seems to be working as hoped!

Gary - emissitivity is the priciple on which IR thermometers work on whether the surface appears reflective in visible light or not. That is a fact.



Whether you think emissivity is a big or small issue is your opinion. Same goes for heat soak.



One could argue quite accurately that once the VP is shut down it is more heat tolerant. It is a proven fact that all electronic semiconductor components have lower operating temperature tolerances than they do storage temperature tolerances. Look at any spec sheet if you don't believe me.



Further, the period of heat soak exposure is fairly short - 30 minutes tops until temps stabilize and start to drop. Finally, the underhood temps of my black truck in the Las Vegas 120 heat we experienced this summer would exceed many of the target VP operating temps discussed in this thread even if the truck hadn't been started for three days! Maybe I should paint my hood white. :rolleyes:



So keeping the VP cool while operating is the primary concern that has been discussed on this thread. Heat soak is a secondary concern. Is it big or small? You know what they say about opinions...



Gary, I applaud your work. But leave the Big and Small crowing at the door.
 
"Further, the period of heat soak exposure is fairly short - 30 minutes tops until temps stabilize and start to drop. Finally, the underhood temps of my black truck in the Las Vegas 120 heat we experienced this summer would exceed many of the target VP operating temps discussed in this thread even if the truck hadn't been started for three days! Maybe I should paint my hood white. "



WELL, my hood IS white! ;) :D



OK - so heat soak is not an issue in typical operation - primarily because the electronics are shut down?



"One could argue quite accurately that once the VP is shut down it is more heat tolerant. It is a proven fact that all electronic semiconductor components have lower operating temperature tolerances than they do storage temperature tolerances. "



SO, what happens (AS it did with FedeX and similar delivery trucks Bosch felt the need to address) when you drive the truck for 40 miles, then shut it down - and THEN underhood temps INCLUDING items like the VP-44 quickly rise to 160 degrees and higher, and THEN you jump back into the truck to drive on down the road - perhaps repeating that scenario several times?



(In the case of the Fedex situation, and the older boards, it was clearly stated that heat buildup would literally unsolder components from the board and solder traces would crystalize from the heat. )



Now, the VP-44, and it's enclosed electronics IS functioning until air and fuel flow again stabilize, and at a significantly elevated temperature - Heat soak NOT an issue?



FROM Blue Chip Diesel's website:



" The other reason injection pumps fail is electrical issues and failures. The computer on the top of the VP44 is susceptible to heat and heat cycles. The components on the circuit board develop bad connections over time and the result is hard start, poor perfromance, white smoke and driveability issues. Often these issues can be verified by codes set in the ECM. "




It is as far as *I* am concerned - Blue Chip and Bosch apparently agrees!



BUT, to each his own - "BIG, or small"... ;)
 
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Gary,



The Fedex/UPS issue as I understood it was start cycles - the number of times it went through startup. Never recall any discussion of heating or heat cycles specifically related to the FedEx trucks. Two different animals.



If you think you will eliminate heat cycles then you are on a long and hard mission. Better start designing that VP warmer box for winter operation. :D



But - I guess if you have one of the new re-designed VP boards then none of this matters huh? ;)



Good luck with the air duct. But to keep the insides cool on a long pull with a 1/4 tank of fuel you better put a fuel cooler on your rig. Where will you put it since your duct fan is in the way? :cool:
 
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