Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Modifying fuel system so temperature input to VP44, 80* - 100*, your inputs.

[Gary - K7GLD]

With all these studies has anyone looked at the efect of a 180 thermostat vs the Dodge 190?

I think mine is already more like 185, according to block temp readings I have taken during this thread.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

In an earlier post, I showed pics of a test duct I installed to provide a small outside flow of cooler air to the VP-44 - and commented on planning to install a small fan at the grille area to continue cool air flow by way of a delay circuit to keep outside air flowing after engine shutdown to minimize underhood heat soak around the VP.



Here's the fan I will be using - I now need to come up with an adjustable time delay circuit to control it...



#ad

 

[rweis]

FYI only, progress report:



Today is frame up the fuel cooler frame day, mount fuel cooler and fan tommorrow (depending on rains), one night next week do the plumbing, connect 1000 cfm fan probably next weekend (waiting on spool of "marine" tined wire and wire loom from Mouser Electronics).



Bob Weis

 

[AKAMAC]

Here's the fan I will be using - I now need to come up with an adjustable time delay circuit to control it...

If you can wait till monday I'll get you the part # for a DPDT off delay 12VDC relay. All the ones I have are 120VAC or 24VDC. Mike

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Thanks Mike - the basic realay is no problem - I have a few already, and Radio Shack has them as well - it's the variable time delay that's the problem - I want the relay or control circuit to be adjustable up to about 30 minutes or so, and haven't found a setup like that yet - my fan draws 1. 2 amps.



If you have any such sources or pointers, fire away!

 

[AKAMAC]

I will be able to get the # for you Monday. The relays I'm talking about have a dial on top that you set. If your in a hurry you can search for "Red Lion" on the net. The ones I use are another brand but I can't remember the name. Mike

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Actually, I've found that type - but the $90 price tag scared the hell outta me!



I know the timed fan control can be easily and inexpensively done with common solid state circuitry - I just need a source or a good schematic...

 

[Fishin Guide]

Thanks Mike - the basic realay is no problem - I have a few already, and Radio Shack has them as well - it's the variable time delay that's the problem - I want the relay or control circuit to be adjustable up to about 30 minutes or so, and haven't found a setup like that yet - my fan draws 1. 2 amps.



If you have any such sources or pointers, fire away!

I have used marine live well timers in the past for such applications. set the delay and it will switch on, if wired correctly, it will only do this once.



Dave

 

[rweis]

timers of various sorts:



http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=UT5 $9. 95



http://timercircuit.hobbytron.com/R-UT-5.html $9. 95



http://www.electronickits.com/kit/complete/elec/ck1614.htm CK1614 (Kit) - $22. 95



http://www.web-tronics.com/multimkitmic.html $32. 95ea



http://www.jdr.com/interact/item.asp?itemno=RK-UT5 RK-UT5 Universal Timer Kit $11. 88



Bob Weis

 

[RClark]

Yesterday at 60-70 degree temps my 190 gave me readings below the 190 mark on the gage. I do remember that when the temps went over 90-95 the gage stayed at or over the 190 mark and the fan ran more. I'd still like to see studies on the effect of the 180.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

timers of various sorts:



http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=UT5 $9. 95



http://timercircuit.hobbytron.com/R-UT-5.html $9. 95



http://www.electronickits.com/kit/complete/elec/ck1614.htm CK1614 (Kit) - $22. 95



http://www.web-tronics.com/multimkitmic.html $32. 95ea



http://www.jdr.com/interact/item.asp?itemno=RK-UT5 RK-UT5 Universal Timer Kit $11. 88



Bob Weis

SUPER!



Exactly what I was looking for - thanks Bob!

 

[tgee]

Haven't read all of these posts, but has anything been said that cooler fuel means more power? I thought the spec was for every 10 degrees over 100 you loose 2% power All coolers i've seen are on the return, better heat rejection. Also, the more fuel in the tank, or the bigger the tank, the cooler the fuel is.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Guys, based upon steadily gathered temperature readings, both related to the VP-44 specifically, and underhood heat in general, I am coming to a pretty settled conclusion.



Seems the greatest single documented VP temp reduction so far is the improvement in cooling fuel flow obtained by pusher pumps or other aftermarket setups. It seemis to turn out that those pumps are performing a multiple benefit - that related to keeping the VP-44 properly fed, and the unexpected (by me at least!) significantly improved pump cooling.



We knew the VP-44 was cooled by fuel flow, but I suspect few of us realized the potential for substantially INCREASED cooling available with aftermarket fuel pumps.



Now, I am also finding that underhood temperatures are not as radically increased in normal vehicle operation as I had previously thought, and the ability to make improvements there are more within our ability than I would have thought.



I am pretty convinced that my own improvements in fuel delivery, and my shadetree fresh air ducting will do about all that is needed to properly control VP-44 temperatures and assure decent lifespan. Once I get my air ducting setup refined with a proper delayed shutoff timing circuit to provide protection against the 30 degrees or so engine shutdown heatsoak, I think I'll be finished!



But I'll keep testing and watching the progress Bob and others make down the same road.

 

[rweis]

Oo. Oo. Oo. Oo. Oo.



No empriical data only SOP.



I got the fuel cooler hooked up (no fan yet, need "Brown" to bring a pkg from Mouser Electronics , temp gauge due next week from Westach and we will have some REAL data!)



HOWEVER, now remember no infared gun, just SOP, BUT



Took 50 mile drive at 60 mph OAT 80*, stopped at 10, 25, 45, 50 miles and used my hand as the temperature sensor. Engine temp was 180* fully warmed up. Valve cover was hot to the touch. READY????????????



VP was ambiant air temp. The electronics bay, the body, the whole VP frame. I even crawled into the engine compartment trying to find a spot on the VP that was not OAT. I mean not even like warm toast in the morning. Not even as warm as the air coming out of my computer blower right now.



UNBELIEVABLE, SOP remember and only one drive. This weekend we are towing the 5er (13k) about 2 hours away. Tommorrow morning I will check it when I get to work. I am speechless (but my fingers still work ).



I checked the H7B fuel cooler, bottom (input) was slightly warm, top (output back to the tank filler vent tube) was OAT. I gotta get me my own infared gun!



Now the surprising part. I know the overhead computer is not very accurate. I use it for differences, which should be ok. And I preface this with not my route to work (ie a non standard route). But at 1375 rpm, 1500 rpm, 1750 rpm flat, steady state turbo whistle (no pitch changes ie no engine changes) +2 mpg. I have to do more testing on the regular route tommorrow, because I know exactely what rpm yields what mpg at exactely where in the route ( I get bored on the way to work so play with rpm, mph, mpg, A/C on / off mpg). The temp will also be more typical to previous days as well.



To say I'm estatic is puting it mildly! More testing, actual data, comparisons to previous data. I also want to find another 2002 ETC dully in mid florida. Preferably one with stock fuel system first. Then a different truck with a pusher pump or whatever supplying 16+ psi to the VP. Both fillup full tanks, turn A/C on at same temperature. I want to take a 100 mile trip stopping at 50 miles and take temperature readings from the modified and unmodified trucks. Testing will prove the concept of cooler fuel cooling the VP better. Sounds logical, but?



My concept is, if you can get the VP bypass (14 psi) open slightly, give it cool fuel to run on and bypass, the VP temps wil be SUBSTANCIALLY lower. Hopefully below 100* at the body, electronics, everywhere on the VP.



The 100* comes from summer tank temps that are not being heated (and actually cooled) by the VP and injector return fuel because you are taking the VP and injector return fuel and substancially cooling it.



I'll get off the euphoria trip sometime tonight (I hope).



Testing is the only REAL key, but I think we might have something to go on.



Bob Weis

 

[Mundgyver]

I too notice what appeared to be better mileage. I will confirm my mileage this week end when I drive up to Seattle and back. I have attached a couple of pictures of the unit i used. It is 3/4 inch thick by 11 inches x 11 and 11 and 5/8 with a core side of 9 1/2 inches. Instead of putting this on the return line to the tank though, I put it on the supply line to the VP. The fuel enters the bottom and feels warm but the top is cold. It works great

 

[RClark]

rweis. Looks good. Ae you running the 180 thermo?

 

[rweis]

I was not going to answer just yet, but since you asked.



Yes I run the 180* thermostat. Have for 2 years.



I think 2 mpg is a bit overoptimistic. I would rather be pessimistic than optimistic. For ONLY a single day, I can see 1 mpg . But why? Denser fuel? Why?



This am fuel tank was 80* (same as other mornings). I set 1400 rpm 52 mph on a very long level stretch and let the turbo whine tell me the engine is stable (no surges). With NO A/C +1 mpg from previous days consistant over the 3 miles level stretch, With A/C +1 mpg from previous days consistant over the same 3 mile stretch (I turned around and re ran the same stretch).



I SOP checked VP temps when I got to work. OAT on the fender side of the VP. When I got to the engine side of the VP there was a slight (maybe 10*) increase in temp over the fender side. The mounting face bosses of the VP on the front gear case mounting hole were OAT.



I ordered a non contact temperature gun this am. Should be here by 8/19 when I tow the RV 2 hours, which should provide more info.



Bob Weis

 

[rweis]

This afternoon, OAT 97*



The VP body was rather warm to the touch when I got home (17 miles). You could hold your hand on it , but it was very warm. I checked the fuel cooler (fan not hooked up yet) and it was fairly warm to the touch as well.



Leads me to think that the OAT is the VP temperature driver unless you artifically cool the return fuel with a fan or ram air. A fuel cooler without supplemental cooling is not the answer when it is hot OAT or pulling hard. I think supplemental fuel cooling is a must! to get the best results.



Temp gun arrives this friday and I will post real data again. I will wire the fan this week and use the OAT as the driver as to when to run the fan on the fuel cooler. VP input fuel temp gauge still a week away.



I think the VP temps are better than without the fuel cooler, but not as good as they could be.



Bob Weis

 

[SKneeland]

i cant imagine putting a cooler in the VP supply line being a good idea unless you have some kind of thermostatically controlled bypass. especially someone living in a colder climate, theres a reason theres a fuel heater in the stock system...

 

[Fishin Guide]

i cant imagine putting a cooler in the VP supply line being a good idea unless you have some kind of thermostatically controlled bypass. especially someone living in a colder climate, theres a reason theres a fuel heater in the stock system...

I had said the same thing way back in the beginning of this post. However, I know enough to say that if it works for someone, I can leave it alone. At least an effort is being made to make it better!



Dave