More questions than answers part 1 million

[petersonj]

@SAndreasen , when it becomes very difficult for me to resolve a problem, I prefer to stop, step away from the project, and regroup. I change my tactics. Instead of focusing on what I think the problem may be, I begin looking at what I can prove is not the problem. I start from scratch. The more things that I can prove are working correctly, then the fewer things that could be the problem.

So, in your case even though I think the valve train is fine and I think the pump gear is timed correctly, I am still going to prove it (refer to paragraph two in Post #14). Then I can check it off the list.

As I move forward with my diagnosis, I won't do anything unless I think it will be productive, otherwise I would be wasting my time. By being productive, I mean, "Does it provide any useful information that helps with the diagnosis."

- John

 

[SAndreasen]

@SAndreasen , when it becomes very difficult for me to resolve a problem, I prefer to stop, step away from the project, and regroup. I change my tactics. Instead of focusing on what I think the problem may be, I begin looking at what I can prove is not the problem. I start from scratch. The more things that I can prove are working correctly, then the fewer things that could be the problem.

So, in your case even though I think the valve train is fine and I think the pump gear is timed correctly, I am still going to prove it (refer to paragraph two in Post #14). Then I can check it off the list.

As I move forward with my diagnosis, I won't do anything unless I think it will be productive, otherwise I would be wasting my time. By being productive, I mean, "Does it provide any useful information that helps with the diagnosis."

- John

I agree with that approach and mechanically I can’t find anything wrong at all . Even if timing somehow did get off it still would not explain why no fuel at the 3 cylinders . And when I had it running there was no knocking or anything to suggest anything mechanical

 

[Gearclash]

I could be wrong here, but I think this issue with his truck has been going on for 9 months or so. There are two other threads on this issue by @SAndreasen that people who are trying to help may not aware of. And, if I am understanding correctly, the symptoms of the replacement VP44 pumps (plural) are the same symptoms of the pump that "failed" originally.

I would start my troubleshooting from scratch. Go back to the basics. My first step would be to disconnect the grid heaters and then open up the air intake at the left side of the engine and give the engine a shot of ether. If the engine fires and runs on all six cylinders briefly, but smoothly, then you know the engine is mechanically sound. If it doesn't, then you know you have been barking up the wrong tree.

If it does run, then my next step would be to make sure that the VP44 pump drive gear is still mechanically timed with the valve train.

If everything mentioned above checks out, then I would write down a condensed history to include what originally caused you to investigate the problem. Then using dates and dialog, list the events of your diagnosis in a chronological order.

- John

At this point that is a snipe hunt. The injector pump is not sending fuel to cylinders 1,2 and 3. That is the first problem that needs to be solved. The condition of the those cylinders is irrelevant until there is reason to suspect them, and they cannot be suspect until the injector pump is functioning correctly.

 

[petersonj]

Not a snipe hunt. If he gives the engine a shot of ether and the engine runs briefly and smoothly, then starts running on cylinders 4,5, and 6, not only will it show that he engine is mechanically sound, but will give merit to the idea that the ECM is calling for 3 cylinder high idle.

And, the test is so easy to perform.

- John

 

[Ozymandias]

We are turning in circles here as the ECM is not involved in the start-up procedure. We don't even get a start-up yet. For whatever reasons.

 

[Bromiley99]

I had a similar problem as you with my 99, I don’t know if this will apply to your situation or not as I am not sure what work has been done to the truck but I’ll share it with you anyway.
At 240,000 miles I noticed a small leak from my head gasket. I put a new cylinder head, head studs, injectors, and cross-over tubes. Once it was all assembled I went to bleed the same way I always do, leave lines from 1,3, an 4 loose tighten others. Crank engine over till I can see fuel squirt out of the 3 loose lines, (occasionally the engine will hit doing this), tighten them up crank till it fires up, run till engine smooths out.
Normally this is a simple quick procedure, but this time I could NOT get my engine to fire. I cranked till my batteries died, nothing! To make the long story short my crossover tubes were not lining up with the injectors. I don’t know if it was my new head or the new injectors that was different, but I had to run the super thick copper crush washers on my injectors to raise them up so my crossover tubes could match up with the hole in the side of the injector.

 

[SAndreasen]

Not a snipe hunt. If he gives the engine a shot of ether and the engine runs briefly and smoothly, then starts running on cylinders 4,5, and 6, not only will it show that he engine is mechanically sound, but will give merit to the idea that the ECM is calling for 3 cylinder high idle.

And, the test is so easy to perform.

- John

It will run good on ether sounds perfect but it will not run on its on fuel supply hardly at all

 

[petersonj]

It will run good on ether sounds perfect but it will not run on its on fuel supply hardly at all

Thanks for performing the test. When you say, "but it will not run on its on fuel supply hardly at all", can you give more detail on the "hardly at all" part? Will it keep running on its own?

- John

 

[SAndreasen]

Thanks for performing the test. When you say, "but it will not run on its on fuel supply hardly at all", can you give more detail on the "hardly at all" part? Will it keep running on its own?

- John

i wish I.knew how to post a video only got it to run once with some ether and lots cranking . I had a guy help change injectors and we broke two of the hold downs I replaced the hold downs and sent that set of injectors in to be tested they tested good I’ve sent the same place injectors before and he will usually say how they test either getting weak or tested fine . I really don’t know what else could be the problem I haven’t replaced the fuel line from the tank to the filter yet the fuel filter has been replaced and getting a good supply of fuel to the injection pump but not getting enough fuel out of the high pressure pump. The guy from thoroughbred said there was nothing wrong with the injection pump when I sent it in to be tested . It’s not that complicated of a system but it will not run even with 12 volts and a ground supplied to the injection pump

 

[SAndreasen]

I had a similar problem as you with my 99, I don’t know if this will apply to your situation or not as I am not sure what work has been done to the truck but I’ll share it with you anyway.
At 240,000 miles I noticed a small leak from my head gasket. I put a new cylinder head, head studs, injectors, and cross-over tubes. Once it was all assembled I went to bleed the same way I always do, leave lines from 1,3, an 4 loose tighten others. Crank engine over till I can see fuel squirt out of the 3 loose lines, (occasionally the engine will hit doing this), tighten them up crank till it fires up, run till engine smooths out.
Normally this is a simple quick procedure, but this time I could NOT get my engine to fire. I cranked till my batteries died, nothing! To make the long story short my crossover tubes were not lining up with the injectors. I don’t know if it was my new head or the new injectors that was different, but I had to run the super thick copper crush washers on my injectors to raise them up so my crossover tubes could match up with the hole in the side of the injector.

how did you come to that conclusion? Did the crossover tubes not seat right in the valve cover ? When we replaced the injectors and broke the hold downs it filled the crankcase with fuel

 

[Ozymandias]

For the test have you had all the other cables disconnected from the Pump an only + and - separately wired direct from the battery?

Or just put a +/- in line with the rest of the wires?

 

[petersonj]

@Ozymandias , I don't think he ran independent wiring. I tried to get him to do this back in June of 2024. I went back and found the conversation. Here it is:

June of 2024:

petersonj said:

Did YOU supply a separate power and ground to Pins #7 and #6 respectively to the PSG? It may be that you did, but I can't tell from your statement.

Sandreasen said:

no I haven’t yet but that’s the next step if there’s power and ground to the pump side of plug then there is power and ground unless the connector pins aren’t making contact which I have seen in other applications a few times .

petersonj said:

Step #3 (Blue Chip Diesel) is the most important test for you to do right now. This step eliminates any potential electrical problems prior to the PSG connector including the ECM and all related wiring and control circuitry. It also eliminates possible voltage being applied to Pin #5 in the PSG (mentioned in Step #2) which would shut down the VP44.

Should you decide to perform this test, the engine may still be difficult to start because the injectors may not be fully bled. I would make sure that you make temporary power and ground connections that will be reliable while the engine is cranking.

Sandreasen said:

can not see well enough to hook up a power supply direct to the pump and I’m not going to go probing around pins with the power probe . There is 12 volts and ground to the pump side of the connector

- John

 

[SAndreasen]

Yes I did run power and ground direct from the battery no change .

 

[Bromiley99]

how did you come to that conclusion? Did the crossover tubes not seat right in the valve cover ? When we replaced the injectors and broke the hold downs it filled the crankcase with fuel

When I started to disassemble the clue I noticed that got me looking in that direction was a large burr on the top side of the xover tube. I had a picture but can’t find it.

 

[AH64ID]

Yes I did run power and ground direct from the battery no change .

If you pulled all other connections and just powered the pump from the battery and it still didn’t work, with a bench tested good pump, then you have a fuel restriction either before or after the pump.

 

[Ozymandias]

Yes I did run power and ground direct from the battery no change .

The question was, did you disconnect everything else from the pump. We want to have everything else taken out of the game, you have to do that no matter how much work it is to do so.

 

[SAndreasen]

When I started to disassemble the clue I noticed that got me looking in that direction was a large burr on the top side of the xover tube. I had a picture but can’t find it.

things like that are always fun aren’t they ?

 

[SAndreasen]

The question was, did you disconnect everything else from the pump. We want to have everything else taken out of the game, you have to do that no matter how much work it is to do so.

wont be hard to do that at all

 

[AH64ID]

wont be hard to do that at all

Wait, you haven’t don’t that yet?

Getting a clear answer out of you is painful.

 

[SAndreasen]

Wait, you haven’t don’t that yet?

Getting a clear answer out of you is painful.

because I can’t see well enough to do it but since I’ve got this new harness I can just wire the old one in with hot and a ground . Which brings me back to the original question if it will run without any other wires hooked up then what does that mean is the ecm sending something it shouldn’t to the pump ? I’ve asked since day one could it be the ecm and the answer is the g** Dang Germans got nothing to do with it . Well if it doesn’t what’s causing the problem then ?