Motor Oil Bickering

[Gary - K7GLD]

It's a curiosity to me that apparently Amsoil DOES get API certification for SOME of their products - yet chooses NOT to for their motor oils? Seems they DO have have respect and value for API certification for SOME of their stuff, why not their motor oils - and why THEN try to "fake it" by placing misleading claims as to "meets API certification" on the motor oil bottles when it is clearly NOT API certified?



Strange...

 

[Sled Puller]

Gary,

No offense, but your statement/question just proves to me that nobody REALLY READS these threads.

Oh, they look at them, but they never read them.



The answers have been typed by several different guys, for weeks now, and buried promptly by spin.



It is a waste of time to try and answer questions out here anymore.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Gene,

I don't remember reading a straight answer to Gary's (and mine, Don M, etc) question about the contradictory positions on API certification/licensing for differnt application oils. I'd understand if Amsoil refused to obtain API certification/licensing across the board but something here doesn't make sense to me. Can you please reiterate since I've obviously missed the explanation?



Brian

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by NVR FNSH

Gene,

I don't remember reading a straight answer to Gary's (and mine, Don M, etc) question about the contradictory positions on API certification/licensing for differnt application oils. ... Can you please reiterate since I've obviously missed the explanation?



Brian

Sorry, Brian, but the answers *have* been posted. Please to re-read the other threads. (a time-consuming task it is, though!)



Gene's response may be a bit brusque, but he *is* right. For you engineers out there, the signal-to-noise (S/N) ratio in these threads is about 0. 05:1. Yes, there is good information to be found in the threads, but about 95% of the content is verbiage.



In the future, if someone asks an honest, open-minded question about engine lube and I can offer a fair answer, I shall do so via email. Engine lube is a religious topic and should be discussed in private.



Fest3er

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

SURE, there have been LOTS of "answers"...





1. Amsoil is afraid their top-secret formula will be discovered if they submit it as part of API certification. (Strange they don't care about their OTHER stuff that IS certified, and also curious that OTHER refiners aren't worried about THEIR formulas... )(OR that any competent lab can EASILY determine the precise contents of Amsoil by simply buying a bottle of the stuff and analyzing it... )



2. Too expensive to have their oil API certified... ( but they ARE willing to spend the $$$ on some of their OTHER stuff... )



3. They do their OWN "API-like" testing in-house, so don't NEED official API certification... (strange they don't use that same logic and testing on their OTHER products that they DO get API certification on!)



I'm sure there are several MORE "answers out there as well, so which ONE is the "real" official Amsoil answer?



The "answer" that makes most sense to ME ( and it didn't come from Amsoil!), is the one that they haven't a steady and consistent supply of additives used in their formula, and that the resulting variations render their oil uncertifiable using API standards... Guess I'll just have to go with THAT one for lack of anything better... !



But, no, I don't figure to wade thru 60 pages or more of smoke-and-mirrors in order to get a few MORE reasons such as the above.



Thanks anyway...

 

['956Wheel]

SALES...hummm

I have read and reread this sorry thread and, IMO, its mostly a salesmans story!



I don't have much use for the guy that calls and wants to offer me a "free" vacation or the "vulture" at the car lot. Heck, I had no use for Al Bundy! We are beyond this stuff as the information needed is out there... the salesmans days are numbered, as we ride the "information superhighway".



Remember the loser that knocked on the door and threw dirt on Moms rug? If he came around now my gal would need a wet n dry vacuum and a shovel! Yup, I like a gal that I do not need to worry about.



Type away as I am certain most here just have no need to be led down the proverbial "garden path". Fact of the matter is ya gotta believe your own B*LLC**P to be a good salesman.



I just call um as I see um!





Mike

 

[Don M]

Fester wrote: "Engine lube is a religious topic and should be discussed in private. "



What???? Gimme a break. Other lubes may be best discussed in private, but our engines and the oil we use is a hot topic. Wonder if the threads were all pro-Amsoil if they would still need to be "discussed in private". The TDR is cram packed full of thinking people that dont jst take what they are spoon fed from day to day. We inquire about and learn more about our trucks than the average truck owner and topics like oil is very well read and discussed.

The last big oil thread had over 300 posts and way over 7000 views if I remember correctly. Maybe more. Chill out! It is bound to swing back your way one day.



In all fairness we were given Amsoils own response as to why they do not seek the certification, but it was one of the best pieces of spin I have read from a corporation in a long time. They went on about not being able to change base oil formulations and I posted the latest base oil changes allowed by the API to disprove this.

It gave 12 or more examples out of literally thousands of combinations that Amsoil could do and they would not have to re-license anything. Gary brought up a very important point when he said the oil could be broken down for cheap-cheap. It can and I am doing just that over time. I have found someone to crack this puppy and let me know exactly what is going on in there.

The problem is Amsoil will change it again soon and the crack will be less than accurate. Do you really think that Chevron could not reverse engineer it? Does Amsoil really think we are dumb enough to believe that other companies could not crack this oil down to the gnats a$$? who are they kidding? Not me for one.

And not Brian or Gary either. So, the answers were not given as you and others say they were. The spin was tossed out and the many thinking members from the TDR decided it was nonsense.



Garys other point about some oils from Amsoil are API licensed and some are not flys right in the face of amsoils own spin paper they gave us about it costing way too much money and it could be reverse engineered or the formula could be figured out.



Don~

 

[Riflesmith]

I don't need to know what is in it.



I don't need it to be API certified.



I don't believe that the Amsoil company is a "secret society" who's only goal is to dupe the public and wear out their mechanical equipment.



What I do believe is what I observe directly with my own senses.

-My truck runs great after 40,000 miles on Amsoil 5-30 HDD. This includes use in summer months.

-I get better fuel mileage.

-My iron numbers in my oil analysis reports tell me what I need to know about engine wear compared to other oils.



If you feel you need to have the formula for Amsoil cracked, by all means proceed. I think you will find that it is a fine product. You will discover that Amsoil is simply a business who's main interest is just that... . remaining in business. They can only do that, given the rather steep prices, by offering superior products.



Frankly, the Amsoil company reminds me of me. I don't like others trying to control my every move and they must feel the same way.

Best regards to all.

 

[Don M]

I don't believe that the Amsoil company is a "secret society" who's only goal is to dupe the public and wear out their mechanical equipment.



NEITHER DO I



If you feel you need to have the formula for Amsoil cracked, by all means proceed. I think you will find that it is a fine product.





I HAVE NO IDEA IF IT IS FINE OR NOT. MY EXPERIENCES WITH IT WAS NOT STEALER. MY OIL ANALYSIS ALSO CAME BACK VERY GOOD FROM IT.



I don't like others trying to control my every move and they must feel the same way.





WELL THEY FEEL THE SAME WAY ON SOME OF THEIR PRODUCTS AND NOT ON OTHERS. SO I GUESS THEY FEEL THE SAME WAY ONLY ON SOME OF THEIR STUFF.



Don~

 

['956Wheel]

Simple

Rifle,



While I can greatly appreciate your bringing the thread back to basics, lets ask one SIMPLE question... . is there anybody with 1/2 million miles on their Cummins with an honest report of using the said super oil? I know of a 2nd generation 12 valve with 497,000 miles on it and going strong with Delo being the lubricant of choice.



In all honesty 40,000 miles on even a gas engine just is not a lot and on a diesel its not broken in yet. I would like to feel as though you have proven something here but not with so little miles.



Yes, do what you want, its your $$. Drive it, enjoy it thats what its all about. I just do not care much for the salesmans on board need to prove out their wares with pure horse pucky.



Mine's got 167,000 on it and I am the second owner, the first owner was into showing horses (an old buddy) and put 150,000 on it mostly pulling 4 horses around the country. When I bought it I asked what "diet" he kept it on aand I left well enough alone... Delo 400. If it "floats your boat" fine but 40K just ain't enough.



FTR Don (first owner) got a new one to replace the one he broke in for me..... too much money, but its his choice, I call him the "Rich rancher".



Mike

 

[Riflesmith]

Don,

I take it from the way your caps-lock was selectivley stuck on when you weren't quoting me, that you are angry. I apologize if you took my post personally.



My most recent post is filled only with my own, mostly subjective observations. The only observations I have made concening Amsoil that are objective are contained in my oil analysis reports.

These reports tell me that Amsoil markets a superior lubricant compard to others that have posted their analysis reports on this board.



Again, I must reiterate this opinion: Amsoil has nothing to gain by offering inferior products at high prices. They would not be around long if they were doing this. This I believe to be true regardless of the API certification(or lack therof).



Most of what was in my last post was opinion, Don. Just as most of what is in your posts is opinion. There is no need to get upset.

This is supposed to be a disscussion, not an argument.

 

[Don M]

Sorry for the CAPS. I just tried it out with the italics to see what they would look like. Im not mad one little bit.

I remember the screaming and CAPS thingee now and can see how you would think I was mad. Im not.







riflesmith wrote: "Again, I must reiterate this opinion: Amsoil has nothing to gain by offering inferior products at high prices. They would not be around long if they were doing this. This I believe to be true regardless of the API certification(or lack therof). "







I think there is a little more to this than that. Oil related failures are super rare. I mean failures where the oil was out of spec or did not perform. Amsoil knows this too. They say they will warrant an engine failure from oil that was not performing as it should. Part of the reason they can do this is they have a small liability. Going back to anecdotal evidence we see no trucks on the TDR with high mileage and Amsoil extended drain interval programs in place, but we do see high mileage trucks here that used Dino oil and drained when the manufacturer asked them to. Since Amsoil has been in biz for 30 years I am amazed that we dont find these trucks all over the place. Where are they? The super oil should have more trucks with high mileage and I have found zero. If the protecion is that much better where are they?



Don~

 

[Riflesmith]

'956,

Never claimed 40,000 miles was a big number. My truck only has 57,000 on the clock. I can only report my own experiences. I am sure there are some high mileage engines out there using this oil, I just don't have any to report. This does not mean they are not out there.



I am not a salesman. I am not distributing horse puckey. I am simply sharing my observations. That is what this board is about. Do what you will with this information. Make your own product choices, we all do.



Why some people take offense to the above scenario is beyond me. I have said over and over that oils like Delo are fine choices.

My own oil analysis results prove my choice is a good one as well.

The trick is to get users of other oils to admit that Amoil is a fine choice. Now who is distributing "pure horse puckey".



Users of Amsoil seem subject to more criticism than users of any other oil. There seems to be something here that leaves users of other oils upset with Amsoil users. I don't understand how we are threatening you. Please explain.

 

[Riflesmith]

Don,

You and '956 have a valid point. There should be trucks out there with high miles using Amsoil. How do we find them? I certainly would not be afraid to look, I just don't know how we would go about it.



I would certainly offer to help if you guys can suggest a search method. As a prospective long term user of their products, I have more to gain from gathering this information than you guys do.



Any suggestions? I will be listening.

 

[Don M]

Maybe we could try another poll to see. There are also awards given out to the high miler trucks on the TDR for every 100,000 miles.

Maybe a quick contact of these guys would give us some insite as to how many miles each truck had, what brand of oil they used and what intervals they drained at.



I predict that the Dinos will always come out on top with regularly drained oil around the 5000 mile mark.



I have one guy uses Rotella T and has over 375,000 miles as of now and drains at 5000 miles. He is a hot-shot hauler.

We all have seen the article in the TDR about the 1. 1 million mile truck with Rotella T and oil drains at 5000 miles.

Others on the board have reported similar things.



I never have heard of a single truck yet over 200,000 miles that used Amsoil and extended drain intervals.





Oh, lets ask the guy that has over 750,000 miles on his truck what oil he uses. I remember he was the guy who posted one of the 5th gear fixes he has had good luck with. The stake fix I think it is. His handle is something like "ram' something. Anyone remember his name or handle?



Don~

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Don, I just did a search on posts by you in the last 30 days that mention Amsoil. It came up with 125 posts - don't you think you've beat this horse dead?

 

[illflem]

Steve, I think Don is just trying to alert folks to Amsoil's deceptive sales tactics. The people that cause these threads to go on and on are the sellers of Amsoil looking at their bottom line. I commend Don on his persistence in alerting everyone to this problem.

 

[Riflesmith]

illflem,

Let me be direct; Bull. This thread has absolutely nothing to do with my bottom line. I have never made any money selling Amsoil, nor do I ever intend to. I have never tried to deceive anyone, ever, regarding this subject.



I, on the pro-Amsoil side have far fewer posts that the people who keep criticizing it. The pro-Amsoil posters combined don't add up to as many on this subject as DonM alone.



I suppose you would have us concede than DonM and those in his corner are right. Well speaking for myself I would..... if I believed he was correct.



IMHO there is no way an oil like Rotella will protect a turbocharged diesel engine as well as a high quality synthetic. The dino oils are much thicker during cold starts, resulting in more startup wear. This is a bigger factor than many of you are willing to admit since our trucks see far more starts/shutdowns than big rigs do. Coking of the oil in the turbo bearings is another issue where synthetics out-perform dino oils.



So dino oils are so superior to synthetics(note reference to multiple brands of synthetic oils)? Why don't they deliver superior iron numbers in head to head oil analysis with the same miles on the oil? This, along with other metal contaminants, is the best indication available of how a lubricant is protecting an engine, short of tearing it apart to see or waiting for 15 years of miles to accumulate.



You are correct that Don is very persistent. As discussed over and over, he is persistent in presenting his own opinions. I have yet to see any proof of any claims other than the lack of API certification. This lack does not concern me, all I want is superior products. If Amsoil chooses not to certify their oils that is their decision to make. Mine is what kind of oil I am going to use.

 

[John]

Originally posted by Riflesmith

Is it just me or do those of us in the "Synthetic Camp" have more flexibility in our beliefs?



-Most synthetic users users on this site readily admit that conventional oils changed at reasonable intervals will result in long equipment life.



-Most synthetic oil users on this site do not criticize people that utilize conventional maintenance.

Riflesmith, I concur!



Although I'm not a real proponent of e-x-t-e-n-d-e-d oil drain intervals per se, I still feel my equipment is worthy of the best money can buy... upgrade items, maintenance items etc... . I always have... and I take care of my vehicles with that respect in mind.



There are numerous large OTR tractor rigs using Amsoil 15W-40 HDD&M as well as their newer 5W-30 HDD synthetic in conjunction with their Dual Bypass filtration systems with 200,000 miles plus... and I mean PLUS! I can't even remember how many such rigs that I've seen showcased in the Amsoil monthly magazine as well as other Amsoil literature. I do remember one of the more recent tractor owner/operators saying that switching to Amsoil Series 3000 5W-30 HDD as well as Series 2000 75W-90 gear oil increased his yearly profit by $5,000. Not bad!

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Illflem - yes, he is alerting people to what he believes to be Amsoil's deceptive sales tactics. But how many times do you need to say it? I think 125 times in 30 days is plenty (that's not all of his posts on the subject either - that's only the ones where he specifically says Amsoil) - that's an average of over four posts each day. At what point does it go beyond just informing and becomes bashing? I for one don't need anything beat into my head that many times to get the picture! Some people might say that it seems Don has a vendetta against Amsoil.



-Steve