My Banks nightmare story

[Sarge]

Amen bro... ... .....

 

[TCDiesel]

I talk to Mat for over two Hours on the Phone Tuesday , This situation is more complex than words in this thread,First DC deny the Repairs without any investagation. I have posted many times on this subject, It is DC Responsibility to find what cause the Damage,If they are going to deny Repairs,The truck should have been taken to cummins to be tore down and inspected, Most authorized cummins dealer cannot be bully Be DC and will give a honest evaluation. Mat did have some issues with Banks that could have Been easily resolved if communications would have been better. This can happen to anyone MODS or NOT. I Have left Messages With the DC REP but He or SHE does not return My calls , DC offer NO assistance or guidance ,other than you can rent a vehicle to pull your boat home. The dealer Hosick was very cooperative. I would recommend them to anyone.

 

[DPKetchum]

Always two sides to the story.

 

[AlaskanCummins]

Driverno8, et all:



I also own a Banks Six-gun, and have noticed a few irregularities with the system. These I have taken with a grain of salt, knowing that I am my own warranty station and that I have taken the chance on the Banks product.



My truck has cut off a half dozen times, only on initial start up of the day. It throws a CEL and when I key it, it gives me a PO336 code; Cam Position Sensor. Takes the normal half dozen start ups and the CEL goes out, but code remains. Now; I had my truck in for the mileage TSB and told the dealer about the code. They ran the diagnostic, showing the CPS being bad in some way, with them ordering it and clearing the code. I get it replaced on Friday.



I put the Six-gun in just after having the truck for about a month, and I never had any irregularities (mainly a stumble) and we'll see if the new sensor will fix it.



I made a trip to New Mexico and back in September, towing 12K lbs (give or take) there and empty back. On the way, I kept my Six-gun in position 3, watching my Pyro all the time. I was always in the 900-1100 range, with it not really changing from position one to 3. I NEVER let it get above 1200 deg, and I averaged 10. 5 mpg.



Speaking in safety issues now. It's 0 to negative 20 in South-central Alaska this weekend, and I towed our 16' Haulmark w/two Ski-Doo Summits in it to go riding. I kept the tuner on position ONE. What happened was that the tuner detected a high MAP reading, and returned the truck to bone stock levels, throwing the 1,2 code on it. I attribute this to the very cold, dense sea level air that we are having right now. I did notice that the boost was just over 40 psi when it did this.



Maybe I'm a lucky one, I don't know. I do know that I had a complete Banks Powerpack system on my 1996 Ford Powerstroke and was VERY pleased. Thats why I went with them this time.



Good luck with your future upgrades!!



Wayne

 

[mike r]

Driver, When I started on the bombing trail 4 years ago, I was still reading the Mopar HiPo mags. I came across two ads pertaining to Cummins Performance. Banks and Dr. Performance. I called both much like you did and I talked to both companies at length. When I was about to make a decisin on what I was going to do, which was Banks because I couldn't believe the outrageous claims that Dr Performance was making, I asked the salesman for the names of three of their satisfied customers in a 50 mile radius of my home, more if they needed to find them, so that I could verify what they were claiming. I never heard from them again. They don't stand behind their products. If I do a search of the forums, I'll find the guys name. He worked out of the sales office. I'm in your corner, They don't stand behind their products.

 

[TCDiesel]

At T & C diesel Performance We DO GIVE OUT CUSTOMER contact numbers,Only if the customer volunteers to contact the potential customer. It violates their privacy. The cummins CPS is touchy ,during installation you have to be careful. Alaskancummins How was the riding PM details. I hope to Make it to Alaska this year,I spend most of the winter in the Rockys. CO,MT,UT,ID,WY,I hope to Make it to Revelstoke this year.

 

[mike r]

TWEST, somehow I knew you would be the first to answer my thread. How come no one else from the main office is speaking up here. You're saying that you'd give out customers numbers if the customer agreed to. Fine, not one number was given to me. I left that wide open to them. I would not have cared if the individual lived in another country, I wanted information. They could have made up names and had people call me that don't even own your products, or better yet, all the other office people that I never talked to or knew existed. NOTHING, NADA, ZIP. Let Banks show me the numbers of follow up satisfaction surveys that they mail out. Better yet show me the actual surveys. Banks doesn't do that nor do you, eh? Privacy? Were not talking about medical information here. This is no different than a shoddy contractor (I'm not accusing anyone else here of shoddy contracting). Those products don't do what they claim! Its easy to walk away when you've been paid.

 

[TCDiesel]

Mike R, I am not defending anyone, But how would you like your name ,and number,and resindence given to a criminal. I also have my own construction company. Two years ago a company gave names and address out to potenial customers. Two elderly couples were ALMOST Beaten to DEATH AND SEVERAL RESINDENCES WERE BURGLARIZED all related to that list. In MN the department of commerce Does NOT recommend the Practice. Names can be given if they Volunteer ONLY.





Side note one of the elderly women that was beaten is Now in a wheel chair the rest of Her life , If Businesses Are not above reproach, Why do business with them. Also the company that gave out that list,was shut down by the By the Commerce Department and legal action taken against it.



Mike r ,you are correct about the money . Once a company has it, and does not want to stand by their products and services ,you are scre**d.

 

[SSheldon]

Mike R,

Iinstalled my six gun that I had bought second hand from a TDR member and was not very happy with the performance. I installed a new six gun on my dad's and could not believe the difference. I called Banks and was given a return Auth. to do a reflash. Banks called me four days after I shipped the tuner to them to tell me the performed the reflash and bench tested it and it had failed. I was about to puke when the tech said so we replaced the tuner and it was being shipped out that day. Banks could have very easily said that the tuner was no good do to improper installation or anything else and I would have had to by another tuner be it a Banks or a competitor and I would not have been able to argue. but they didn't I believe they stood by there product and so far have been very satisfied with there support. But I haven't exploded my motor.

Spencer

 

[mike r]

Thats great how they treated you. My point isn't to hear any testimonials on their customer service EXCEPT Drivers. Your unit FAILED. PERIOD. They made good and it really didn't cost them anything even though you were switching it around on trucks. You gave them and out and they didn't take it. Drivers out an engine.

 

[PeterT]

I just returned from the SEMA show so this is my first opportunity to have read this thread and provide a response.



I have been aware of Matt McDonald’s (driverno8) situation since about April or May of this year. I have been in communication with him about the details of his problem as have other members of our staff here. As with any situation that involves a failure on a vehicle that has our products installed, we were concerned about the cause of failure from the beginning. Before I say anything else, I will say that Mr. McDonald provides some statements in his posts that he claims I said to him verbally that are simply not true. I am always very careful about what I say and how I say it, and I believe that he has taken my words out of context or has simply misunderstood what was really said.



First I need to clarify the nature of Banks products for these trucks because there has been some confusion in this thread. We offer two different products for the late model Dodge trucks. Our Stinger system includes airflow components and an electronic module to calibrate the fuel to match the improvements in airflow. This product is designed for people that tow with their vehicles and is somewhat conservative in nature from that perspective. It is always sold as a system with the intent that it will provide a reasonable power enhancement within the vehicle’s capability when used within the vehicle manufacturer’s recommendations.



Our other product for the late model Dodge is in our High Performance/Racing line and is called the Six-Gun. The Six-Gun Diesel Tuner is a product that can be used as a stand-alone item or in conjunction with airflow enhancements. The Six-Gun is designed with safety features including exhaust temperature limiting control (reduction of fuel delivery when EGT reaches a maximum value) and features that will protect the engine from damage if something were to fail in the circuitry of the Six-Gun. It is a versatile product that can be used for high-performance applications such as racing. As such, it is sold with a disclaimer that is found in the installation manual. This disclaimer is located in the front of the manual and gives the user clear warnings about the use of this product. It also gives the user the opportunity to return the product if he does not agree to the conditions. The user accepts the terms of the disclaimer by installing the product. Here is the disclaimer in part:



THIS IS A HIGH PERFORMANCE PRODUCT. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.



Do not use this product until you have carefully read the following agreement. This sets forth the terms and conditions for the use of this product. The installation of this product indicates that the BUYER has read and understands this agreement and accepts its terms and conditions.



DISCLAIMER OF LIABILITY

Gale Banks Engineering Inc. , and its distributors, employees, and dealers (hereafter “SELLER”) shall in no way be responsible for the product’s proper use and service. The BUYER hereby waives all liability claims. The BUYER acknowledges that he/she is not relying on the SELLER’s skill or judgment to select or furnish goods suitable for any particular purpose and that there are no liabilities which extended beyond the description on the face hereof and the BUYER hereby waives all remedies or liabilities, expressed or implied, arising by law or otherwise, (including without any obligations of the SELLER with respect to fitness, merchantability, and consequential damages) whether or not occasioned by the SELLER’s negligence. The BUYER is responsible to fully understand the capability and limitations of his/her vehicle according to manufacturer specifications and agrees to hold the SELLER harmless from any damage resulting from the failure to adhere to such specifications. The SELLER disclaims any warranty and expressly disclaims any liability for personal injury or damages. The BUYER acknowledges and agrees that the disclaimer of any liability for personal injury is a material term for this agreement and the BUYER agrees to indemnify the SELLER and to hold the SELLER harmless from any claim related to the item of the equipment purchased. Under no circumstances will the SELLER be liable for any damages or expenses by reason of the use or sale of any such equipment. The BUYER is responsible to obey all applicable federal, state, and local laws, statutes, and ordinances when operating his/her vehicle, and the BUYER agrees to hold SELLER harmless from any

violation thereof. The SELLER assumes no liability regarding the improper installation or misapplication of its products. It is the installer’s responsibility to check for proper installation and if in doubt, contact the manufacturer. The BUYER is solely responsible for all warranty issues from the automotive manufacturer.



IN THE EVENT THAT THE BUYER DOES NOT AGREE WITH THIS AGREEMENT: THE BUYER MAY PROMPTLY RETURN THIS PRODUCT, IN A NEW AND UNUSED CONDITION, WITH A DATED PROOF OF PURCHASE, TO THE PLACE OF PURCHASE WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS FROM DATE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND. THE INSTALLATION OF THIS PRODUCT INDICATES THAT THE BUYER HAS READ AND UNDERSTANDS THIS AGREEMENT AND ACCEPTS ITS TERMS AND CONDITIONS.



Why do we include a disclaimer like this with our Six-Gun product? Because the Six-Gun is designed to meet the needs of those that want to race their trucks. As such, it can be used in a manner that is not recommended by the vehicle manufacturer. It can also be purchased and used without the added installation of airflow enhancement. The disclaimer explains all of this and places the responsibility for the use of the product in the users hands. We understand that diesel trucks are versatile, and some people will race with their vehicles occasionally and tow with them at other times. For this reason, we recommend that the Six-Gun be set at one of the lower settings for towing purposes. This is not uncommon among products of this nature. Even with all that being said, we have had a tremendously successful track record with the Cummins Six-Gun. There are thousands out in the field that are running flawlessly accumulating many trouble free miles.



Mr. McDonald purchased a Six-Gun and installed it himself. By doing so, he accepted the terms of the disclaimer. Mr. McDonald has stated in his posts here that he drives his vehicle very hard, and this fact was verified by our technicians who worked on his vehicle. Upon review of the notes taken at the time that his vehicle was here for service, it was discovered that the retaining tab on the cam position sensor was broken during the installation of the Six-Gun. This would result in the possibility of a poor or broken connection at that location, and was almost certainly the source of Mr. McDonald’s intermittent problems prior to his engine failure, including his incident on the freeway.



When Mr. McDonald experienced his engine failure, he did contact our Technical Service Department. Because of the severity of his situation, I was made aware of the facts of his case. It was of great importance to us to determine whether or not our product could have in any way contributed to his failure. After reviewing the facts, it became evident to us that the Six-Gun could not have caused the failure, partially because the Six-Gun fuels all six cylinders equally, and the damage to Mr. McDonald’s engine was not common to all six cylinders. Mr. McDonald was informed both verbally and in writing that this was our position.



Now for a few words about warranty. Regardless of the type of product that is used or how it is used, the simple presence of an aftermarket product does not in and of itself void the factory warranty. Read the Owner’s Manual that came with your vehicle carefully and you will see that there is no provision for voiding a warranty. Dodge can certainly deny warranty repairs for damage that is CAUSED BY an aftermarket product, but there should always be an identifiable cause of failure for such a denial to occur. When a Dodge dealer is unwilling to provide such information, it is my advice to a consumer to obtain verification of the cause of the failure to have knowledge with which to proceed. If the cause of failure is determined to be the result of the use of the aftermarket product, then Dodge should not be held responsible, but if the cause is not related to the aftermarket product, then the repair should be covered under warranty. Sometimes these types of issues can be resolved by returning to the dealer with solid information and sometimes more effort is required. We always endeavor to assist our customers by communicating either verbally or in writing when our product is being blamed for a failure that is unrelated to its use.



The Six-Gun is designed with safety features including exhaust temperature limiting control (reduction of fuel delivery when EGT reaches a maximum value) but this does not have any bearing when something unrelated to the Six-Gun fails. The Six-Gun also has features designed in that will protect the engine from damage if something were to fail in the circuitry of the Six-Gun. But we cannot protect against intermittent electrical connections that are the result of damage done during installation. We are always willing to help within reason, but we have no control over how a customer might drive his vehicle, and therefore we place the responsibility for such use in the consumers hands when we sell him a racing product. We have had a tremendously successful track record with the Cummins Six-Gun. There are thousands out in the field that are running flawlessly accumulating many trouble free miles. It is unfortunate that Mr. McDonald had a problem with his truck, but based on a complete review of the facts, it is our opinion that his problems are unrelated to the use of the Six-Gun.

 

[mike r]

I don't understand how you have thousands out in the field when you just released it six months ago. You give youself an out with that disclaimer but you market it as safe by design. I'm still waiting to see the horsepower producing exhaust brake and tell Dave Fredentoller that I'm still waiting for the numbers of the satisfied customers so that I can verify your claims on the ottomind. Weak.

 

[MABurns]

The "Director of Communications" reply starts out like an explanation, then turns into an advertisement, then legal loophole, then an ad again. So we now have both sides. End result... consumer beware.



Almost everyone acknowledges that bombing is done at your own risk, but at times like this I am begining to think the Magnuson Warranty act was written by SEMA and not consumers.

 

[TBrennan]

That's a pretty crappy response. It seems like you can't make up your mind on if the fault was the result of improper installation or you won't offer ANY kind of support EVER since this is a RACING product and just installing it dissolves Banks responsibility. Then you throw in some blurb about how great and safe this product is.



I can see your point if you just said it was Bank's opinion that that CAM sensor was faulty resulting in failure, and this was unrelated to the Six Gun. The other legal crap makes it look like it really doesn't matter to you what went wrong, your not going to stand behind the product since it's for racing and you have a disclaimer somewhere in your literature. Who's going to care a lick about your safety innovations if your not willing stand behind them.

 

[rbattelle]

Just a quick comment

TDR had an article several issues back, titled "The factory Knows best".

I agree with this statement, but only to a certain extent. I've met many many many engineers over my life. Most of them couldn't tell you what a 1/4-20 screw is. And I've seen engineers put out some really bad designs.



Ask any machinist... he'll tell you all about how engineers always know better.



-Ryan

 

[rashwor]

This is not aimed at driverno8 or anyone else specifically. Please don't take personal offence. In all fairness, when I bought my Edge EZ for my '99, it came with basicly the same disclaimer and installation was the condition of accepting the disclaimer.



I wouldn't buy banks out of personal preference.



My suspicion of Driverno8's problem is that the engine failed and would have most likely failed anyway... but when? 50K, 100K? Did the banks product agravate and speed progression? Was it due to the broken CPS retainer?



The point is, so many questions and no definitive answers to any of them. When engine failures occur, quite often it is a guessing game as to the specific cause of the failure. Adding any box just adds to the guessing. Of course DC is going to say box = foul = on your own buddy = :-{} . You know this and should accept it. If you can afford to lawyer up and you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the box had absolutely nothing to do with the failure, then go get'em. Odds are you won't be able to prove it if you can afford the lawyers. Thus, essentially, the disclaimer means to the general consumer in plain English: "Install this box and kiss your manufacturer warranty bye. You are on your own. We appreciate your business. " I accepted this when I installed the Edge EZ on my '99.



I highly doubt that the '05 with its' added electronics and complexity that it will ever see any kind of box. I can't afford $8K for a replacement if something should happen. And I sure can't afford more than that to lawyer up and make someone else pay for my poor judgement.

No box = Warranty =



JMO... flame suit on.

 

[mike r]

rashwor and tbrennan, just for arguements sake, go fiddle with you CPS and partially unplud the connector then ATTEMPT to drive the vehicle. Report your findings back to this forum. I'll predict that you couldn't drive your vehicle due to the fact that the cummins computer couldn't fire the engine let alone tow a 12,000 lb boat. I've worked on a bunch of these and fords with the same problem and they all do the same thing. If I was going racing I'd never pick one of those over a blue or red box. Wonder how many races they won?

 

[qzilla]

I want to hear about how the 6 gun fuels all 6 cylinders equally?



Since I know that there will be an answer, I then want clarification that if I were to run an exhaust temperature probe at the same distance from the exhaust valve, I would then see equal temperatures.



Thanks for the explanation.





Quad

 

[Cooker]

I want to hear about how the 6 gun fuels all 6 cylinders equally?



Since I know that there will be an answer, I then want clarification that if I were to run an exhaust temperature probe at the same distance from the exhaust valve, I would then see equal temperatures.

If I am correct in where I believe your question is heading, I was also thinking the same thing.

 

[matches]

misery loves company..... well I was at the dealer yesterday talking to the diesel mechanic and he told me of an 03 with 38,000 miles on it with the same problems as you, he told me it had the banks stuff on it but he didn't go into details, DC hadn't chosen if to warranty it or not. He said the short block was $9000. 00, not including labor. Sorry to here about your problem.