My New Intake & Intercooler Tubes

[GHarman]

Air Flow Dynamics

Gentlemen, I would like to throw one more idea out to be gnawed upon. Forgive me, I dont want to step on anyones toes. That being said, Here Goes! Has anyone considered how the air flows through the piping system that we are modifying? I see no air flow engineers among us, Just common sense applicators. One thing that we are not seeing is turbulence. No matter how pretty our stainless pipe or the blue hoses and clamps, the air flow efficiency is only marginally increased (my opinion, Stir up debate and causing us to put on our thinking caps). Each 90 degree bend is equivilent to many feet of pipe with the same internal finish. In the natural gas industry, That equivilent was 10 feet for every elbow! ( this is important because at high pressure, high flow rates, an accurate measurement of this commodity is impossible without smoothing out the turbulence accumulated through the distribution piping!) The worst offender in our equation is the intercooler. No matter which one you use there are 2 abrupt 90 degree turns, one inlet,one outlet! Let me do a SWAG and suggest that we are pushing air through the restriction equivilent of, say 60+ feet of pipe because of the turbulence accumulated. Some examples of turbulence elimination; (1. ) Those of you that are familliar with GTAW ( TIG welding ) have probably seen and used a GAS LENSE COLLET BODY. This has a multiple layer screen ahead of the argon distribution ports that straightens out the flow of the cover gas allowing for less aspiration of atmosphere around the edge of the gas column. (2. ) Tube bundle diffusers used ahead of of a TURBINE GAS METER to eliminate turbulence so a proper measurement of use can be made for billing purposes. (3. ) Sheet metal guides inside large industrial ductwork at abrupt 90 degree turns for distribution of building air/ AC. There are suppliers of diffusers for our application, but we can also build our own. A diffuser between the air filter and the inlet of the turbo has already been established in another thread. I would propose a diffuser as close to the intake manifold as possible. I know you have your boost gauges. But pressure is not volume! You can get more volume at the same pressure by eliminating turbulence. What do you all think? =). GregH

 

[Greenleaf]

Greg,



You need to phone /e-mail John Holmes. He sets down with his tools and calculates this stuff. You would have quite a conversation.



He mentioned this sort of stuff in his column printed in the TDR magazine. One thing I recall that was really really odd was when he mentioned installing the TAG in the down pipe.



Joe Donnelly is another. He eats this up. He is the one guy that dyno tests everything and proved that the OEM air intake system and the exhaust system do not pose any restriction up to like..... 700 HP I think it was. That "may" have been a second gen model rig with the P7100 pump I recall correctly.

 

[GHarman]

Thanks for the info. I only have issues 51 and 52 of the TDR magazine. I am considering using a TAG at the inlet of the turbo and one near the inlet of the intake manifold. The intake manifold inlet is a restriction without being modified or replaced , a pressure drop inside the manifold will take place. The TAG will allow a higher flow rate into the intake because of the reduced turbulence. I am not very good at handleing all the features of the TDR website; How do I introduce myself and contact these Gentlemen? Thanks GregH.

 

[DValentine]

Sounds like some good thinking. But, how would a TAG type turbulence reducer work at the end of the system? The air is still fighting its way around the 90* restrictions and what not. Would the heater grid work in a similar way?



Give us some more theory.



Dave

 

[GHarman]

I have not examined the grid heater as yet. It could act as a diffuser to a limited extent. As far as theory, I dont know how to do moving volume calculations. I do not know the capacity of my turbo charger at a given RPM. This understanding I have is based only on experience in other fields. In two of the three examples in post 21 the diffuser is at the end of the distribution, directly before use or measurement. The grates on an air/ ac register are considered diffusers and act in the same way. Commercial TAG'S are expensive. A tube bundle inserted into the pipe before the intercooler and after the intercooler would reduce the turbulence that you have indicated. Is this necessary? How much is to much? We dont have a perfect system. I would like to read the articles that were mentioned in post 22. I too, have lots of questions. Thanks. GregH

 

[Greenleaf]

; How do I introduce myself and contact these Gentlemen? Thanks GregH.

Very simple



John Holmes; Contact the dealership would be my first guess.

www.carsondodge.com 888-883-2028



Joe Donnelly; contact via this web site. User name or through the main office.

 

[GHarman]

Thanks for the contact info. GregH

 

[DValentine]

Greg, my questions stem from the idea that no matter where you put a tag device the flow is still turbulant and not laminar. It would seem to me that it would make the most sense at the outlet side of the intercooler considering the turbo and intercooler would introduce the most turbulance in the system.

 

[GHarman]

Dave, Quite possibly you are right. It couldnt hurt, but I was thinking point of use. At the turbo inlet has already been established by an advertiser and their testing? The best location after the intercooler is what we are trying to determine. A tube bundle diffuser after the first 45* bend at the outlet side of the intercooler is what you are suggesting if I read you right. Or a commercial TAG as close to the intake manifold is my best guess. Maybe a combo of both? I was thinking of a 3" OD- 45* bend, then A run with the tube bundle. According to my crude calculations 33- . 500" tubes will fit into a 3" tube with a 16 Ga. wall. (2. 875" ID tube area is . )6. 49+ sq inches. . 500" OD tube is 0. 196349--- SQ inches) These tubes need to be as thin as possible; . 035" wall thickness or thinner. They do not need to be the full length of a straight run. A 2''-3'' long bundle can be inserted into one or both ends. The same could be done while fabricating an intake horn in the straight run between elbows. You could even use a larger diameter tube for the tube bundle location with reducers at the appropriate locations. A lot more welding would be required. A smooth internal weld is necessary. Very small tack welds on the tube bundle also. I have to locate a supplier that will allow me to purchase SS tube in small quantities without running the price out of reach. GregH.

 

[GHarman]

PS Feel free to check my math. Sometimes I cant run a calculator and blink my eyes at the same time. =) GregH.

 

[DValentine]

Cool, I am moving to Billings MT at present and don't have a lot of time but will look around for some tubing.

 

[GHarman]

Was doing some early morning calculating. The 3" tube (2. 875" ID); even with the obstruction of the accumulated wall thickness of the . 500" tube bundles (@. 035' wall) you will still have more static cross sectional area than with the stock 2. 5" tube that I have on my 1st gen breathing system. . 025" wall thickness tube would be even better. Then you add the advantage of laminar flow? I was even thinking about different size tube-tube bundles at 3 stages. Directly after the intercooler, Before the intake horn ,and in the intake horn before the last 90* elbow. using progressivly smaller tubes? This is all theory so far. My main goal is to breath better at high altitude. GregH

 

[Car_nut57]

I'm definitely interested in the stainless base. Would like to build my own upgrade. Did you change your intercooler? I've heard that the pre 2002 Ford PS intercooler is a big step in the right direction with minor modifications to the hood latch. Much more volume and 3" inlet/outlet. What do you-all think? GregH.

You can use the Ford 99-2003 intercoolers in the 1st gen trucks and the stock tubes from 3rd gen Dodge cut down fit pretty well. Then all you need is the connection hoses. If you are shopping for a used Ford intercooler the 99-2001 has metal tank ends and some time in 2002 Ford switched to plastic tanks which have a 3-1/4" connection on the passenger side and 3" connection on the drivers side. We stock adaptor hoses to take care of this problem.

 

[GHarman]

Thanks for the specific year info on the PS intercoolers. GregH

 

[DValentine]

greg, you are light years ahead of me on the math. I saw some pipe fitters running instrument tubing last year on a power plant job. I don't know what the wall thickness was but I'll do some research. When I get all my stuff moved, I'll work on finding some s. s. tubing.

 

[GHarman]

I found a source of tube via the internet, unfortunately they wanted to sell a minimum of 100 feet. I was thinking 3 different sizes. Far to expensive for an experiment. I will have to take some time to go into Denver to the scrap yards. Might be able to find some short lengths lying about. I did order my elbows, 2-90* and 2-45*, . 065" wall. GregH.

 

[GHarman]

DValentine, I am going to use 3" od 304L stainless tube, . 065 wall, for the intercooler piping. You are aware that each weld joint will have a slight reduction in diameter! Set your tubebundles back into the tube by . 500" so this metallurgical phenomenon wont bust the tacks on your tube bundles. Keep your welds as small as possible to reduce this effect. Dont forget to purge. GregH

 

[Sri Ram]

This is very interesting, guys. For the novices in the crowd, could one of you snap some pics while you build your air guides and of the finished product before final assembly?

 

[GHarman]

Sri Ram, I will try. Have to wrench the digital camera from my wife=). It will take some time to do this. I am on a budget. Still have to purchase an intercooler, all of the tubing, hoses and clamps. It is possible that DValentine will complete his sooner than I will? I am also in process of replacing my exhaust, clutch, and front wheel bearing service. For me, this is a big job. Right now is snow season. You get the picture=). GregH

 

[JStokes]

If anyone is interested,

I bought a Powerstroke intercooler out of a 99. It has metal ends, but it doesn't look like it is a good fit for my Cummins/Suburban conversion. I was going to put it back on Ebay and let it run but if someone wants it I can be emailed at -- email address removed --.