2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission My steering sucks...

[muchsnow]

Death Wobble?

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Hey muchsnow,



I have been looking for a fix for the Death Wobble and want to bullet proof

my 2001 qc 4x4 Cummins. I saw your posts on your steering upgrades and I'm impressed and am considering doing it as well. I'm a x-navy welder and wrench on stuff all the time. Could you send me a parts list? One other thing... do you think this will cure the Death Wobble with the DSS installed?



Any help would be great.



Steve



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



Steve, In short, perhaps, but I can't be definite (haven't had the problem yet, knock on wood), however it's one sure fire way to "help" alleviate the inherent instability (wanderlust=reduced control of front wheels) of the inverted Y steering as configured in most of the heavier chassis Dodge trucks. Get rid of slop and you reduce a potential contributing factor. I personally feel that the variable geometry aspect of the inverted Y also contributes to (of an already sloppy when new) steering gear failure since the draglink is also the centerlink/union between the front wheels. Suspension articulation is always working against the driven component (sector shaft/pitman arm) of the power-assisted spool within the steering box. This causes what? Initially worn bearings on the bottom of the shaft? What you feel at the steering wheel feedback is a significantly reduced force of what is working against the steering box/pitman arm. Saginaw boxes are just better then what's been going on with these trucks. Got's to be something...



When the inverted T setup is installed you have a very heavy-duty centerlink rod linking the front wheels together (solid), and guess what, all the draglink does for a living now (with the T setup) is move the centerlink. Better steering, handling, tighter steering, reduced driver fatigue, and as long as nothing else is after-marketed and/or worn into left field, reduced steering box wear and what feels like zero bump steer. The DSS is a fine addition if your box is already in pretty good shape. When used with the HD steering setup, I feel it's more good insurance (like a 4 bolt main small block) then an absolute requirement. "Unless" the box already has a lot of lateral shaft movement, then it's an economical corrective action that can be used w/replacements when/if required, or additional support if you're pushing around good size rubber.

 

[muchsnow]

Death Wobble (part 2)

Death wobble,... . hummmmmmmm... ..... Let's make sure we're on the same page here... I sometimes think that this problem is kind of like migraine headaches, those that are walking around saying they are having one, probably have never had one. Nothing to buy tickets to.



Please don't confuse this with the self-propagating suspension hopping that these trucks can do on the right highway construction conditions. This, I feel, is in part due to the overbuilt suspension on these trucks. I've been in both short and long bed Ram 2500's that do it (don't know about 3500's) A lot of sprung weight on heavy springs but not loaded. I've had 15 ton plus trucks (unloaded) do the same thing to me. However, (comma) they were always straight axle simple (straight) steering configurations. This problem is reducible in the Ram in a few ways, weight shifting on the vehicle, the "right shocks", steering brace etc. Finally, the T steering setup, so you aren't fighting the bounce through the movement of the Y steering setup at the steering wheel (also an issue with caster wobble). I knocked it down on my 2500 4WD through a number of these and virtually eliminated it with the steering retrofit. It's a whole different truck now and it's really nice at highway speeds. Whatever causes it, it's important to differentiate between the bounce and the shakes. I've never had the shakes with my truck although it took me about 6 months to figure out how to correct the drive-line vibration I used to get between 55 and 65 MPH (different story).



Now if you combine caster wobble with this "bounce" as I call it, I'm positive it can be an extremely white-knuckle experience.



Caster wobble (like the wheels on that "special" grocery cart) can be a product multiple things. If the variables are there (and they really shouldn't be, right?), the slightest thing can trigger it. Kind of like the cart that starts the wobble at a certain speed in the produce section after putting a sack of potatoes in the front of the cart, or the back... . and/or when you run over the cracks in the tile or a grape or not. Quits when you slow down. Was fine when you grabbed it in the parking lot.



My first major (minor was a 44 Ford MBGPW JEEP, fixed kingpin bearings (balljoints) and it was good as new) experience with castor wobble was with a Honda 1984 GL1200I (Interstate). Had one hand on the throttle, the other balled up due to (5 AM) cold and was going through road construction in Milpitas CA. I had let off the gas and was slowing down through 45 mph and hit a groove or a pebble in the road and immediately had my hands full. Didn't loose it, but I was wide-awake for the rest of the day. Funny thing is that both hands on the bars and it never happens, one hand and you can create it or feel it setting in. No hands keep it over 50 or you're just trying to commit suicide. It only happened on deceleration in high gear and engine braking. (Weight transfer without dampening effect of both hands on the bars?) The phenomenon was actually interesting enough that I had actually worked on what it took to recreate it. The bike was mechanically sound. So guess what?, it's an idiosyncrasy that I'm always aware of (800 pound bike... not likely to forget it). Have since found out that the after-market community has a fork brace out there for this bike, just haven't tried it. Both hands on the bars are actually pretty sound corrective actions. Enough of this.....



Caster wobble is what it is... Any worn suspension component can put you closer to the edge. I've noticed that outer tie rods, upper ball joints/kingpin bushings and upper control arm bushings (2WD) are usually the contributing factor when linked to worn components. Usually worn pretty badly due to operator being oblivious to the condition of the vehicle. This is generally not the case with our trucks.



Once initiated, beats on the rest of the suspension... and the vehicle, like a sledge hammer, more wear and controllability issues.

Loose steering boxes, sector shafts, pitman arms, tie rods, trackbars, steering shafts, wheel bearings, odd steering geometry, near out of spec alignments, etc, give it room to grow.

Engineering design can contribute to susceptibility. Ever been in a mid 60's early 70's GM muscle-car w/the swing-arm rear suspension that went into axle hop once the tires lit up? You'd have to put the fillings back in your teeth (still one of the best setups for weight transfer). This was correctable with the right shocks, airbags, ladderbars etc.



Actually the racing/performance/handling suspension (not off road) types (people) are the really the ones that need to be turned loose on this problem and supplied with a vehicle to analyze. Most of us can grip what's a good thing for slow off road use (articulation, ground clearance, tires, gears, etc), but the issue with the caster wobble is mainly a "on the pavement/speed problem".



Most of the modifications we do are actually functional and can/do complement/improve the original design of the truck, but sometimes you can't rob Peter to pay Paul, you have to pay both or rob both.



You raise the truck front (even simple leveling kit), it de-centers the front axle (fixable w/ DT track bar), throws out caster, camber (depending on lift, correctable w/modified control arms), and with the inverted Y linkage a major toe issue (geometrically), especially through suspension travel even after alignment. One thing nice about the simple level kit is that it puts weight aft. Which in the grand scheme of things (nose heavy Cummins) can improve dry handling, braking, front-end wear, etc, to some degree.

Weight added or removed forward of front wheels and aft of the rear wheels can also have an impact on suspension function/alignment/wear (lever actions). Wheel offset is also a major variable few consider.



Try steering that grocery cart w/ 400 pound bumper, +winch, and/or plow hanging on the front of the cart or see what happens with the steer wheels on a forklift when it's overloaded on the forks.



Like I said though, it would be nice if someone out there knew someone that was equipped to analyze one of the shaking trucks from a performance handling perspective (like autocross, my personal favorite). This would involve someone with alignment capabilities, four wheel scales, and the shop/facilities to remove suspension springs and block, measure, and analyze what is happening to the suspension when blocked at various ranges of travel. Then be able to compare this and wheel plane, vertical plane, camber angle, steering axis inclination, weight on the wheels, etc. to a known good truck. From an economic perspective, without any side bets, I'm sure DC hasn't "lab'd" much on this problem due to lack of personal injury or death, because I've haven't seen or heard anything on any major network news relative to the problem yet. Or maybe some folks just need to collectively get the problem on film and see whose interested (squeaky wheel gets the grease). I knew a guy that used to use a bore-scope and laptop rig to record chassis problems on Corvettes at his shop a couple of duty stations ago, just for troubleshooting. I think it was something Snap-on sold. Something like that would really be the ticket to actually see what is happening for death wobble.



One of the best references I've seen for suspension details that I have, and had to have when I bought it, is a CHEVROLET POWER Manual, Fifth edition, that I bought from a GM dealer back in the 80's. I have no idea what the part number is, it was on a rack in their parts section. It has a Chapter 7, called vehicle dynamics that's very useful and/or mind boggling in understanding that there's more to suspension than springs and shocks.



You know what? I think I'm rambling again…. . Sorry……. Uuuuuhhhhhhh……was that a yes/no question?



I think the answer is that it would certainly help.



Have a good one. I'll probably post this response just for info.



Parts list is attached. Let me know if you get lost in it.



As for the difficulty of the retrofit, I get the feeling there's going to be plenty of folks here to help out if you need it.



L. J. Mutchie. (Also NAVY)

 

[jandtjil]

TTT been a couple weeks. Anyone else make the swap to T setup?



JJ

 

[TFabian]

TTT been a couple weeks. Anyone else make the swap to T setup?



JJ

I did the swap a few weeks ago. I'll write up a report over the holidays with some pics. I will say the the steering is much more precise with the Inverted T setup. I can drive the truck with a few fingers on one hand instead of death knuckling it with two hands.

 

[muchsnow]

HD steering retrofit

I did the swap a few weeks ago. I'll write up a report over the holidays with some pics. I will say the the steering is much more precise with the Inverted T setup. I can drive the truck with a few fingers on one hand instead of death knuckling it with two hands.

Pretty amazing isn't it, I didn't want to over hype the mod initially, and I'm glad you got it together. Look foward to the pics relative to your model. It will be nice to see how widespread (year-wise) this can be done. The more people that start getting these parts, the cheaper they get, and increases the probability of availability in years to come. Because of our drivetrain these trucks can last a very long time. Its kind of like the "It's a JEEP thing" that I still suffer from.

 

[Jim Brewer]

It will be nice to see how widespread (year-wise) this can be done. The more people that start getting these parts, the cheaper they get, and increases the probability of availability in years to come.

Muchsnow, a quick thank you for carrying on in this post. I took the PDF's you posted a while back and bought the parts to convert my "Y" to the "T" setup you recommended. I went to Advanced Auto Parts just down the street and they got everything in within 2 days.



I also bought the DSS and track bar update from Mr. Bob's last week. I'll highly recommend Mr. Bob as he got all the parts out to me very quickly.



Here's my starting point...

#ad


I'm going to start on the conversion & fitting tomorrow so I'll post any interesting info that comes up.

 

[muchsnow]

HD steering Retrofit

Muchsnow, a quick thank you for carrying on in this post. I took the PDF's you posted a while back and bought the parts to convert my "Y" to the "T" setup you recommended. I went to Advanced Auto Parts just down the street and they got everything in within 2 days.



I also bought the DSS and track bar update from Mr. Bob's last week. I'll highly recommend Mr. Bob as he got all the parts out to me very quickly.





I'm going to start on the conversion & fitting tomorrow so I'll post any interesting info that comes up.

Nice shot of the parts req'd, is that the latest DT trackbar setup?

I noticed from the profile that you're a fellow Blaupunkt user. I've done some interesting things to get quality home stereo sound out of my truck and that was the first step (potential for a whole new thread). Be sure to try to kind of give us a blow by blow on this. The steering part is pretty quick but the trackbar takes a little longer (one of those measure twice, cut once, type of projects).



Have a good one.

 

[DAWG-1]

Part numbers

Hi Jim Brewer,

I also have a 2001. Can you list the part numbers just for the steering parts. I have a DT trackbar and the DSS. Thanks, Sam.

 

[muchsnow]

Part Numbers

Hi Jim Brewer,

I also have a 2001. Can you list the part numbers just for the steering parts. I have a DT trackbar and the DSS. Thanks, Sam.

Please refer to posts 13 and 30 of this thread also.....



Thank you,



L. J. M.

 

[SnoKing]

Nice shot of the parts req'd, is that the latest DT trackbar setup?

I noticed from the profile that you're a fellow Blaupunkt user. I've done some interesting things to get quality home stereo sound out of my truck and that was the first step (potential for a whole new thread). Be sure to try to kind of give us a blow by blow on this. The steering part is pretty quick but the trackbar takes a little longer (one of those measure twice, cut once, type of projects).



Have a good one.

That is the 3rd gen track bar kit from www.Solidsteel.biz



SNOKING

 

[muchsnow]

That is the 3rd gen track bar kit from www.Solidsteel.biz



SNOKING

Thank you,

I think I would still like the adjustable one over the 3rd gen unless it's adjustable also.



>>>>Just looked at it, nice setup (damn good idea actually), although if your vehicle is at anything other then oem ride height, the adjustable is the appropriate choice (DT trackbar) and is essentially about the same amount of work. Not sure what the cost diff is without looking it up.



Thanks again... .

 

[muchsnow]

My steering sucks?????

Are there other options??? Or should I just go with one of the factory setups?

Did you ever get this worked out??????

 

[DAWG-1]

Part numbers

Muchsnow, Unable to open.



Jim, Can you post the numbers for the steering parts you purchased? Thanks, Sam.

 

[Jim Brewer]

Can you post the numbers for the steering parts you purchased?

I started a new thread on my upgrade.

Go here.

 

[KOREDISH]

Call me slow, but I don't see the differences between post 18 and 21. The post between the Y and T. I have a 99 QC, so I'm interested in finding out which type I have. Also, in your pdf, what does the yellow and red highlight indicate?



Thanks



KOREDISH

 

[SnoKing]

Call me slow, but I don't see the differences between post 18 and 21. The post between the Y and T. I have a 99 QC, so I'm interested in finding out which type I have. Also, in your pdf, what does the yellow and red highlight indicate?



Thanks



KOREDISH

In post 18 the drag link from the pitman arm goes to the right wheel and the tie rod connects out on it and goes to the left wheel. This is the "Y". The other system has a tie rod that goes wheel to wheel and the drag link connects to the tie rod near the right wheel or at the same point as the right end of the tie rod. This is the "T".



I thought I had the "T" system on my 2001. 5 until I looked closely at it. Well it is the "Y" system. Like someone else posted, if the track bar and drag link at parallel to each other you do not get much bump steer. If you lift your truck and these two components are no longer parallel, bump steer could increase. FYI, the DSS steering box brace cured most of my bump steer. SNOKING

 

[BroncoMarc]

Did you ever get this worked out??????

Nope. . I've been out of work for a couple months, so I can't afford to throw money at it right now.



I'm still not completely convinced on the T setup. Not with the way my drag link is rotating my tie rod up and down. Is it just bad TREs at the knuckles causing this? Does the heavy duty setup resist this movement?

 

[muchsnow]

Steering??

Nope. . I've been out of work for a couple months, so I can't afford to throw money at it right now.

I'm still not completely convinced on the T setup. Not with the way my drag link is rotating my tie rod up and down. Is it just bad TREs at the knuckles causing this? Does the heavy duty setup resist this movement?

For some reason I thought your truck had the t setup factory oem (which would be the HD setup). Do you have a pic? The original Y setup on mine (2001) used to rotate and also would contact/mark the Diff cover. I eliminated some of the movement by cocking t/r ends a bit and making sure nothing was in a bind (wheels off ground). Even at that time, I was looking for a supplier of a T setup like on JEEP's (most familiar with). Then one day I was talking to a fellow owner in a Home Depot parking lot about a quality lift job on his truck and saw what looked like a oem T setup on his truck. He said it was factory and had never seen/noticed the rig on my truck year before and had zero steering problems. His was a 1999 model. With that information, my quest began. I'm very very pleased with the end result and would never!! reinstall the original configuration.

I hadn't forgotten about you, it's just that the thread just kind of snowballed in a different direction. If you could get me a pic of under the front end so I can see what your stuff looks like (it just helps me). Then perhaps the original question thrown out there can be addressed.


Have a good one,

L. J. M.

 

[Turboman]

So let me get this straight. Order all the steering parts for a '99 except the ball joint at thepitman arm, use one for an '02 which is my year, right!!

 

[muchsnow]

Question?

So let me get this straight. Order all the steering parts for a '99 except the ball joint at thepitman arm, use one for an '02 which is my year, right!!

Re-edited, answer is yes, order the 99 HD parts and the ES3527 rod end. I rechecked.


L. J. M.