New Cummins engine oil

[Kirwin]

Factory Fill Oil

On our tour of the Cummins Mid Range Engine factory at the TDR nationals at Columbus in 2002, I asked what oil they were using in the engines and was told that the engine is filled there at the Cummins plant with Valvoline Premium Blue 15W-40. That is what I am using until the 15K oil change when I will be switching to Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme which is a full synthetic. The reason I am switching is to make myself feel better about the 7500 mile oil change interval that I want to use. I have used Premium Blue since 1990 and so far have never had a oil related problem. Its reasonably priced and its available at any Cummins dealer or large truck stop or even at NAPA. By the way Geno's has Stratapore oil filters that they sell at my Cummins dealer's cost. Can't beat that with a stick. Ken Irwin

 

[Pit Bull]

Re: Factory Fill Oil

Originally posted by Kirwin



The reason I am switching is to make myself feel better about the 7500 mile oil change interval that I want to use.

Ken it's funny what Dodge puts in our owners manuals regarding oil change intervals. My 2002 owners manual shows 7500 mile interval unless the temperature falls below 32 degrees and then it states you should change it at 3000 miles. The owners manual in my 2000 CTD did not say anything about the 32 degrees and the 3000 mile change interval. The Service manager at my DC dealership says most owners change at 5K mile interval. Makes me wonder who writes these owners manuals and what their motivation is.

 

[Kirwin]

Oil Change intervals

Yeah Pitbull, I don't know who comes up with all their stuff but what gets me is that the owners manual says one thing and the service manual for the same vehicle says something else! I have always changed the oil at 3K intervals until this last time. My 97 is used over 90% of the time to pull my travel trailer (at least it was until I got the 03). It is inconvenient to change the oil on the road and some of my trips are well over 3K miles. So, after the TDR nationals, and the oil discussion with the Valvoline guys there, I decided to go to 5K intervals with the synthetic. Purely for my convenience. The oil at 3K still looks like new in the 97. Not so In my older trucks but the 97 is a clean burning motor. Jury is still out on the 03. At 4780 the oil was very dark. My normal practice is to change the oil when I can no longer read the FULL through the oil on the dipstick. Ken Irwin

 

[LightmanE300]

Changing the oil on an 03+ cummins at 3k , dino or not, is idiotic, no offense. You have 12 quarts on an extremely clean burning engine... and are wasting time and money. They recommend 7500/15000 mile intervals, and those engineers recommending that know what they're talking about.



Valvoline premium blue extreme is a group 3 synthetic, made of clearly inferior base stocks when compared to premium synthetics like Delvac 1 or Amsoil. IF Valvoline is 12 bux, it may be worth the difference to you. Personally, for 18 bux a gal, i'm going to run amsoil 15w40 HDD/Marine for 10-15k between changes. Oil analysis shows that 03's with the stratapore can easily do 15k on synthetic, likely 20k. 7500 is for SEVERE SERVICE. 3000 miles is a total joke and you're wasting money.



As for changing out the original oil early or not, there are many theories. Most that know engines, recommend leaving the original oil in for at least 5k. Some people with very superficial engine knowledge think to themselves, if they can get the break in wear metals out soon, like changing at 300 miles or something, they're doing their engine a favor. The fact is, those abrasive wear metals are what help seat the rings etc. The fact that dino is less slippery than synthetic, and cummins recommends dino on the break in, supports this theory as well. VERY often people that change their oil out too soon, will have much longer break in periods, and burn some amount of oil for the life of the vehicle. I learned the hard way... people told me this but I was stubborn, and changed out my TDI oil at 424 miles. Yup, it didn't show mpg increase/broken in till around 30k, and I always had to add oil over the 10k changes. People that waited till 5k don't use a drop. Do what you want, but I'm going to listen to the people that get paid to design our engines, and leave it in 4-5k before changing it. I plan to change to synthetic around 15K, provided I have pulled a nice heavy load by then. In the meantime, it will be Delvac 1300, one of the most additive fortified dino oils out there...



Pitbull makes a good point about people who dont drive a lot of miles, and not needing the extra expense. There is a flip side though. How much does your time cost? I would rather change synthetic every 10k compared to dino every 5k! Thats way less effort, cost is about the same, better cleanliness with synthetic... . and when you go to sell the truck, or buy a used vehicle, its sure nice to hear that the owner wasn't too cheap to use high quality synthetic oil.....

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by LightmanE300







I would rather change synthetic every 10k compared to dino every 5k! Thats way less effort, cost is about the same, better cleanliness with synthetic... . and when you go to sell the truck, or buy a used vehicle, its sure nice to hear that the owner wasn't too cheap to use high quality synthetic oil.....

Problem with this idea for my 02. 7500 miles is the limit for oil change interval per DC. If you use 10,000 miles with an 02 and have a oil related warranty problem your out of luck. Synthetic is not a good deal for 7500 mile oil and filter changes. I can see your point with an 03 but I would use the best synthetic and a 15,000 mile interval with oil analysis and at 7500 miles I would change the oil filter. Wish mine had that kind of interval, but not enough to sell my 02

 

[LPChristensen]

Lightman, you made several interesting points in you recent post. And I would assume that you are not saying that those of us that worry about possible engine contamination from the manufacturing process are idiotic. When I started this tread, I stated that I changed my oil at 2K miles because I was concerned about any dust, metal shaving, dirt, or whatever that may have entered the engine at point of manufacture. How long it took to break in the engine, the cost of the oil and filter or if, at some point, the thought that I might burn a small amount of oil in the engine, were not of my concern or, perhaps, I did not see the scope of my actions. My whole point was to remove any harmful substance that might have been in the engine that was now trapped in the filter or in the pan. I would think, that if you dumped your oil at 2K or 3K, that any beneficial abrasive material that would help seat the rings, etc. , would soon be built back up in the normal wear and tear of engine operation. Several sources suggest that the Cummins engine is not broken in for up to 20K miles, so surly, getting the original oil out of the engine at 2K or so, would not seem to add or subtract much form the equation. My purpose was to give me peace of mind, when I looked at the oil, looked at the used filter, stuck my finger in the pan, it all felt and looked clean, and I was happy! And I take no offense to your opening paragraph. I have a truck that cost over $40,000 and a great Cummins engine that cost over $5,000 and I will do whatever I can to protect that investment and give myself some peace of mind.

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by LightmanE300

Changing the oil on an 03+ cummins at 3k , dino or not, is idiotic,

Got to disagree. It should be changed before 3,000 miles to get out any possible contaminates or early wear particles.



. "Most that know engines, recommend leaving the original oil in for at least 5k. "



disagree



"The fact is, those abrasive wear metals are what help seat the rings etc. "



:-laf sorry, there are abrasive wear materials that are created by any engine and then there is contamination from initial wear and assembly of a new engine. That is what I want out of my engine.

 

[LightmanE300]

:-laf Like I said, that theory of wanting to get out the initial contaminants and wear metals, is the common 'joe average' understanding of what's going on in their engine. I agree with the engineers who say to leave the original oil in the engine for good while for proper seating/break in. Does your CUMMINS manual say to change the oil at 2k or less??? Don't think so. I've seen it happen so many times, that people who change their oil early, have oil consumption for the rest of the vehicle's life... . whether minute or not, changing really early doesn't allow for proper INITIAL break in. Take this with a grain of salt guys, for the most part my point is addressing those guys who want to drain their oil with just a couple hundred miles etc. I think 3-4k miles is probably plenty. The wear metals on the second run of oil do not build up anywhere near as quickly, as evidenced by many FIRST drain oil analysis reports compared to SECOND drain reports.



LP, no offense intended, just information sharing for the purpose of helping everyone out.



PitBull - as for warranty issues etc... dunno what to tell ya, thats a total long shot. Oil related problems are very rare, and how could they prove you changed at 10k compared to 7500? 10k is a very conservative interval on your truck with synthetic, as evidenced by oil analysis.

 

[Pit Bull]

Ok then you must agree with the NV engineers when they say that the lube in the NV5600 is a lifetime fill and that if you don't tow or haul much you never have to change your deferential fluid??? I changed my oil at 1200 miles and my truck uses no oil between 5000 mile changes.

 

[LightmanE300]

Your truck doesn't use oil because 5000 mile changes are incredibly conservative.



As for lifetime fills on transmissions... . my friend's '96 E300 has 294K miles on the original fluid. Just changed it out for the hell of it, it looked new. Same with VW's, most people leave it in.



I've not had a truck before, but I do know that towing certainly puts more stress on the trans and fluid, and if towing heavy loads, I'd change the fluid more often... so yes I agree with those engineers... Making those types of recommendations is based on their schooling, and years of work in that field. They do this stuff to feed their families... . they know what they're talking about and do testing...

 

[LPChristensen]

Pit Bull, I guess you and I must be in a minority on this issue. I have to agree that I must be old school. I am in my 50's, and I am not sure how many trucks, cars, Harley's, boats, ATV's, etc. , that I have bought over the years, but I have always tried to get the original oil out of the engine after some reasonable period of time. Again, just fear of engine oil contamination. I had a Lincoln Mark VII a few years ago. On it's first oil change at 2 or 3K, it 's filter, oil and bottom of the pan was filthy. You could stick your finger in the pan and the oil and feel the metal and the dirt, and I just for the life of me can not see how this would help that engine in any way. That Lincoln when I sold it, had over 125K miles and did not use oil. I am sure that I will buy another Dodge truck or two, another Cummins or two, and other cars or toys, and I will change the oil early, for peace of mind. If Cummins puts out a service advisory telling me, a new engine owner, that replacing my oil early is a serious "no-no", I'll listen. Until then, or until they seal up the engine to keep my hands off of it, that original oil is coming out.

 

[LightmanE300]

The beauty of america! I for one hope your engines do run a long time and don't burn oil with your practices. I'm only reporting what I've seen. The wear metals being in there help seat the rings etc... along the same lines of theory that if you tow a load within the first few thousand miles, that will also aid in break in. Its all about mashing those wear metals in there and seating wearing the rings in. Oh well, to each their own! Good luck.



LP, what kind of atv do you ride? Seems like a lot of folks on here have them. I have a kaw prairie 650. Interesting how manufacturers have different ideas. Maybe due to diesel vs gas, or not. My kaw owners manual subscribes to your theory. They want you to change the oil at 8hrs, then every 100... .



VW specifically warns against changing the oil out early... . not sure about cummins.

 

[LightmanE300]

well I emailed cummins to see what they say about this. VW's statement is to not change it any earlier than 5k. The normal drain interval for TDI's is every 10k. The first change is at 5k, again at 10k, then 20,30,40, etc. So apparently they believe the first few changes should be at HALF the normal intervals, but no sooner.

 

[LPChristensen]

Lightman, have a Honda FourTrax Foreman Rubicon ATV. It works out great on the beach and when I take it up to the Ranch in the Texas Hill Country west of Austin/San Antonio.

 

[LightmanE300]

Gotta love the rubi's! Its so funny how atv'ers are immature like some truck owners with the ford vs chevy vs dodge trash talking. The atv forums are twice as bad, bashing brands senselessly, rather than noting the good points of each. I rode with a rubi two weeks ago. While it could not keep up with my prairie in the speed department, it did just as well in the deep water. Several times the water went up over the racks/headlights, and the rubi didn't even cough! Nice machine. His was bright yellow, unlike the typical honda red.

 

[DLeno]

guys don't forget the marketing aspect of oil drain intervals. you got more than engineers writing the manuals, notebly those who are trying to inspire confidence in the customer that the engine is robust and requires little special care during breakin. the mfg is solving a different problem than you are -- they want to minimize your maintenance expense and inconvinience, inspire confidence in the vehicle, and make statistically sure the engine survives the warranty period. you, hoewever, want to find the point of diminishing returns just to make the engine last absolutely as long as possible.



That said I know of no oil change related ISB failures -- the darn thing is going to outlast you anyway, even if you make no special allowances for reduced drain intervals during the break in period!



Anyway, just remember that when you ask a mfg (incl cummins) about the oil change interval, you can bet that they have more than pure engineering in their heads. Its highly unlikely that they will recommend anything even close to a dimminishing returns procedure (such as changing oil very frequently) that most of us old school guys are used to. Hopefully they will answer a direct question such as "will I hurt my engine if I change oil at 1,000 miles"



Does anyone have any data or authoritative descriptions from a tribologist supporting the assertion that "wear particles" (pieces of iron) THEMSELVES are BENIFICIAL to the break in process? particle sizes are very large at first, and go down in size exponentially as wear-in occurs. That stuff ends up burried inside the bearings -- after they scratch cylinder walls and rings, or become trapped in the filter. you want the parts to wear in evenly, not with scratch marks. Unrelated to engines, I don't know of any polishing process that uses dislodged substrate material itself as a compliment to the abrasive slurry to obtain a smoother surface. it gets washed off as soon as possible.



that aside, I admit I can't explain the TDI break in experience. you're sure this statistically this is valid, and not just anectotal? Do the TDIs ship with special break-in oil?



I'm out for information and don't mean to discredit anyones opinion. I'll admit that keeping the first oil in there a long time makes my hair stand on end because:



1. the additive package is depleted more rapidly

2. initial particle sizes are enormous and you need to change the filter early to positively guarentee they don't blow through the media and cause damage, or cause the filter to go into bypass mode.

3. sheer stresses are very high during breakin

4. instantaneous temperatures within the engine are very high at the points of extreemly high friction interfaces while parts wear into each other.

5. the only time I've seen a credible recomendation to "go the distance" on the first oil change is when there is special break in oil.



All that aside I've been guilty of overdoing it my self, but really, a couple of extra changes is cheep insurance. I Changed my 1986 Buick 3. 8L at 300 miles, put in a magnetic drain plug, and then went another 500 before dumping. you should have seen the pictures I took of that plug...



I'm suggesting drain intervals of, say, 1000, 3000, 5000, and 7000 for the first four changes. something like that. that will get you to 16,000 miles with essentially fresh oil and (so the old school goes) an optimized break in.

 

[LightmanE300]

Dleno, I hear you on the marketing side of things, but I wasn't basing my comments on Cummins' recommendations, I was basing my comments of 15K is a conservative synthetic interval from much discussion with a few friends who happen to be lubrication engineers, and have been highly involved with diesel technology for the last 20 years. Both regularly as a service will discuss and disect to no end, oil anlaysis reports etc. This is what they do to feed their families. They both have said that 15-20k intervals will meet target wear metal counts etc, due to the 03+ clean burning nature. I've seen myself some oil analysis reports of them doing 10k, and they look like my TDI after 5k, no joke. The clean burning cummins combined with the huge sump, allow for a long interval.



It's not anectdoatal evidence about the TDI's, it happens over and over. Tdi's are not shipped with special break in oil, although I believe they are shipped with a 5w-30 instead of the recommended 40 weight, again, to help with break in.



I'll try to find some scientific evidence etc about the wear metals being beneficial.



Believe me, I wouldn't make claims based on hearing one person's 'story' or experience. I wouldn't want someone to take my advice if I felt there was going to be any chance of something going wrong, and if it wasn't what I rearched and felt to be the best thing for the engines...

 

[Pit Bull]

Even with my wifes 95 Landcruiser that now has 130K miles on it. I run synthetic, normally Mobil 1 5w30. Just tried Amsoil synthetic 5w30 and was going to go 12K miles on this last oil change with a filter change at 6K miles. I just can't do it. I will change the oil and filter at 6K miles. I know I don't need to but I can't help myself. I guess I need an oil support group

 

[LightmanE300]

Pit Bull, I hear ya and feel your pain. It sure took a lot of getting used to, letting the oil stay in 10k in my TDI. A few oil analysis reports though cured that! Iron levels of 20ppm after 10k miles... oil still retaining a TBN of 7-8... . barely worn out oil at all. My friend with a TDI in tampa, drains his oil and gives it to his neighbor. He has an older F350, and runs the 10K used delvac 1 another 5k before draining it. He gets free oil, and hasn't had probs yet. LOL. I'm not suggesting running anyone's used motor oil, however, just stating there's a significant life in the oil left, after most people drain it.



The jury is still out in my opinion on the break in issue. I've been doing more reading. VW and AUDI clearly state, through technical bulletins, DO NOT change the oil out early, and in fact, the dealer WILL NOT perform an early oil change for you if you ask them to. They claim special break in oil, which I believe is to make people feel better about leaving it in.



I do know personally, that I drained my TDI's oil at 424 miles or so, and again at 5k, then 10,20, etc. My TDI definitely burned oil between 10k changes. Those who left it in the full 5k don't burn oil.



Argh, who knows. Still waiting to hear back from my lube tech engineers.

 

[Elite1]

I can appreciate what everyone, including the owners manual, says about not using synthetics for the first 30,000 miles.

But I have one question, Why does Mercedes and BMW (pretty good engineers I would say) and Corvette use Mobil1 synthetic as their factory fill in both gas and diesel (in mercedes)engines???