Much tighter engine tolerances is what I've always read. Other people believe it's because you can use synthetic from day 1 and your rings will still seat just fine.
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New Cummins engine oil
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"break in oil"
I do not know of any manufacturer who uses break in oil today. I could be very wrong, but a special break in oil would cost more than a "standard oil", and doubt whether any manufacturer, unless they are hand building a couple of engines a year would go to the expense of using "special oils!
If I remember correctly, manufacturers in the 40's used "break in oils" for a couple of reasons. first, back then oil quality and consistency were no where near todays oils. two, the manufacturing process of mass producinf engines was not any where close to todays tolerances. for those and probably several more they used a straight weight oil and cut it with mineral spirits, mineral spirits are what is used in machining to cool and keep the cutting surface sharp.
with the introduction of multi weight oils with additive packages and API standards, break in oils became un necessary and costly. computer controlled machining processes made tolerances close enough so that "break in periods were greatly reduced or eliminated. the suggested first 500 to 1,000 mile "break in today is more for the break pads, rotors and other running gear than for the engine.
that said, a quick dump of engine oil is probably just wasting good oil. has anyone done an oil analysis at 500 miles?
just MHO.
I do not know of any manufacturer who uses break in oil today. I could be very wrong, but a special break in oil would cost more than a "standard oil", and doubt whether any manufacturer, unless they are hand building a couple of engines a year would go to the expense of using "special oils!
If I remember correctly, manufacturers in the 40's used "break in oils" for a couple of reasons. first, back then oil quality and consistency were no where near todays oils. two, the manufacturing process of mass producinf engines was not any where close to todays tolerances. for those and probably several more they used a straight weight oil and cut it with mineral spirits, mineral spirits are what is used in machining to cool and keep the cutting surface sharp.
with the introduction of multi weight oils with additive packages and API standards, break in oils became un necessary and costly. computer controlled machining processes made tolerances close enough so that "break in periods were greatly reduced or eliminated. the suggested first 500 to 1,000 mile "break in today is more for the break pads, rotors and other running gear than for the engine.
that said, a quick dump of engine oil is probably just wasting good oil. has anyone done an oil analysis at 500 miles?
just MHO.
I tend to agree, that there is no such thing as break in oil. However I dont think that the cost of oils on such a grand scale as an auto manufacturer would use them, would matter much either way. MB, BMW, VW, AUDI, etc etc ship their vehicles with synthetic oil from the factory, which obviously costs incrementally more than dino.
Still not quite sure why these places mandate waiting on the first oil change, and waiting on a few answers. Ahh the quest goes on. Most likely, it doesnt matter if you change it at 1k or 5k anyway, but for the sake of this discussion, I guess its worth finding out. We are quite a particular bunch, but then again, I guess thats a prerequisite for being on an internet forum...
Still not quite sure why these places mandate waiting on the first oil change, and waiting on a few answers. Ahh the quest goes on. Most likely, it doesnt matter if you change it at 1k or 5k anyway, but for the sake of this discussion, I guess its worth finding out. We are quite a particular bunch, but then again, I guess thats a prerequisite for being on an internet forum...
don't want to take this to the next level, but, I owned 3 differant Mercedes Benz, in the owners manual on the first two clearly stated, "no synthetic oil"! kind of insinuated if you use synthetic oil could void warrenty! in the last one I owned, not only did it say to use it, the Mobil 1 trade mark was everywhere you looked, and again they "kind of said" if you don't use Mobill 1 synthetic they could void your warrenty. basically same engine just 2 years differance! with all the Mobil 1 stuff printed all over everything I would almost bet Mobil paid them to use there oil instead of it cost MB more!
Ralph, no that is not the case. All recent mb's come with synthetic in the sump. They didn't use to. The reason they do, is due to the massive amounts of lawsuits and money they've recently had to pay out, due to sludged engine problems. Not as bad as the toyotas. The problem is that on '98+ cars or so, they installed what they call FSS. Flexible Service Schedule, which tells you when you need an oil change, and adjusts per your driving style and oil quality, via a number of sensors, some in the oil pan measuring viscosity, etc. Pretty high tech. However, they stupidly didn't mandate synthetic at the time of introduction, and people were just listening to the FSS and going 15k miles on dino oil, and sludging the crap out of their engines. This is why they've since switched to SYNTHETIC only, and YES it will void your warranty if you use other oil. I personally got a letter from MB guaranteeing my engine for 10 years or 150k against sludge problems, if I have any records of dealers installing dino oil. Luckily, all my benz has seen is juicy delicious Delvac 1
Hope that helps explain that one to ya Ralph!
Hope that helps explain that one to ya Ralph!
Well a little engineering and a little CYA. I guess the engineering part is HEY, dino oils don't go that long between changes, and the CYA part is HEY, I'm tired of paying for sludged engines!:-laf
One thing to note though, is that they don't require Mobil synthetic oils, just oils that meet the proper oil standards. Using amsoil or redline or any other full synthetic that meets the standards is fine. They have long lists of approved oils.
Actually, I've had to school the MB dealers, since they so rarely see diesels like mine. They require CH-4, or better yet CI-4 rated diesel oils. Every dealer I've gone to tried to put regular CF (gasoline rated) mobil 1 or Castrol syncrap in the engine. The service guys dont know what an API rating even is. Pretty sad, but thats what you get for getting a car that they only made 2000 of for just 2 years. Oh well, Delvac 1 exceeds all requirements. I explained it all to the dealers, and they finally get it, yet still don't stock the proper diesel oil. Go figure. When the new E320 CDI comes out, they probably will be forced to.
One thing to note though, is that they don't require Mobil synthetic oils, just oils that meet the proper oil standards. Using amsoil or redline or any other full synthetic that meets the standards is fine. They have long lists of approved oils.
Actually, I've had to school the MB dealers, since they so rarely see diesels like mine. They require CH-4, or better yet CI-4 rated diesel oils. Every dealer I've gone to tried to put regular CF (gasoline rated) mobil 1 or Castrol syncrap in the engine. The service guys dont know what an API rating even is. Pretty sad, but thats what you get for getting a car that they only made 2000 of for just 2 years. Oh well, Delvac 1 exceeds all requirements. I explained it all to the dealers, and they finally get it, yet still don't stock the proper diesel oil. Go figure. When the new E320 CDI comes out, they probably will be forced to.
dealer changed mine, they wanted it at 3K, but I was out of town on trip, they changed it at 7500, after droping it off at service deak, I took a little walk, truck was in end bay so I could park myself at door and watch, they used Mopar 15W - 40 diesel engine oil, boy was I glad. I think we are getting a little off the topic, but I would not feel right about using a 15W - 40 diesel oil. heard many storys of dealers putting in bulk oil!
Here I am, bringing it right back on topic. I heard from my friend the lube engineer. I am the first to admit when I'm wrong, and apparently am in this case. George is like the final word in diesel lubrication in my opinion. I guess the TDICLUB members either have different circumstances or their heads up the wrong place! Looks like Doug et all were right all along. Gut instinct and common sense prevails on this one. Here's the email I got from him.
"Dave,
In my professional opinion, several short drains is best. It isn't just for the wear particles Dave, there is casting sand and only God knows what else is in that block. . Casting sand in no way helps break in! Moreover, the engine is 'broken in' after the first block of driving... The newer tighter tolerances, CNC machining, etc. have created engines which require little or no 'break in'... . However, there is a bit higher levels of break in wear generation and we need to get that, along within the junk, out of the engine.
George Morrison, CLS "
"Dave,
In my professional opinion, several short drains is best. It isn't just for the wear particles Dave, there is casting sand and only God knows what else is in that block. . Casting sand in no way helps break in! Moreover, the engine is 'broken in' after the first block of driving... The newer tighter tolerances, CNC machining, etc. have created engines which require little or no 'break in'... . However, there is a bit higher levels of break in wear generation and we need to get that, along within the junk, out of the engine.
George Morrison, CLS "
Still waiting to hear back from the other guy, however George knows his stuff. I guess I'll probably do 1k, 3k , 5k, 10k,15k, then switch to synthetic at 15k. We'll see. I'm sure the engine is gonna outlast the truck regardless.
huh?
Not trying to start anything, but this is the shell answer man for cummins diesels? What happened to the 10k or more miles depending on your driving habits? Is there something the cummins engineers are missing?
Forgive my directness, but this just seems to contradict everything I have read on these motors so far.
Phil, everything I've heard is also in agreement with what he's saying. I think he didn't spell it out so specifically, because this was an email to me. The fact is, the engine IS for the most part mated and 'broken in' in the early stages of running. I think the full 'break in' period that cummins refers to is the complete break in, where there will be no more seating etc... . when the engine is finally as it will be..... i. e. reached full compression.
Phil, here is George's more professional answer to your question/comment.
"Dave, that 20,000 'break in' is just marketing hype/bs... Metal
matching, bearing seating, ring seating, all takes places very, very
quickly in a modern diesel engine. I assume the marketing folks want to intimate that that at 20,000 miles the engine life is just beginning. . Marketing hype. Indeed the engine *will* last a very long time but that does not change the fact that the engine is completely 'broken in' after the first block is rounded... We use as example of when an engine is 'broken in' as when oil consumption stabilizes. . You know when your oil consumption stabilized... About 10 minutes after startup... .....
George"
"Dave, that 20,000 'break in' is just marketing hype/bs... Metal
matching, bearing seating, ring seating, all takes places very, very
quickly in a modern diesel engine. I assume the marketing folks want to intimate that that at 20,000 miles the engine life is just beginning. . Marketing hype. Indeed the engine *will* last a very long time but that does not change the fact that the engine is completely 'broken in' after the first block is rounded... We use as example of when an engine is 'broken in' as when oil consumption stabilizes. . You know when your oil consumption stabilized... About 10 minutes after startup... .....
George"
Originally posted by LightmanE300
Still waiting to hear back from the other guy, however George knows his stuff. I guess I'll probably do 1k, 3k , 5k, 10k,15k, then switch to synthetic at 15k. We'll see. I'm sure the engine is gonna outlast the truck regardless.
I did 1200, then 4800 then 9800 then 14900. Like you said the engine will last many years after I've traded for a new ride. But I still like to take care of my vehicles.
Pitbull I'll probably do closer to what you did than what I had suggested as my possible routine. George also agrees that I could/should go a bit longer between the later changes than the schedule I listed.
It would appear from the e-mail that Dave got from George Morrison that we have closed the circle and returned to the original post. Even a quality engine leaving a modern production facility might have dirt, dust, casting sand and Lord knows what else lurking in some out of the way pocket deep within the block. And it would seem that the old school philosophy of getting the original oil out of a new engine at some early and reasonable interval is still sound advise. Is it not refreshing to realize that as we get more and more technically advanced, some of the things that you father or grandfather said to you still has value? That common sense still has a place in our lives. I do feel vindicated and in South Texas, the planets are lined up favorably, there is peace and tranquility, and my Cummins Dodge and I feel happy and less stressed out. And Boys, I don't smoke any of that funny stuff!
Seriously, I want to thank all that contributed to this posting, I think we all learned something and I, for one, was very impressed with the knowledge and comments submitted.
Seriously, I want to thank all that contributed to this posting, I think we all learned something and I, for one, was very impressed with the knowledge and comments submitted.
Yes you're right Larry, sure glad to see that common sense and traditionalism aren't too far from the ideals of today's engines. Oo. Glad you brought this up and we could dig to the bottom of it.
However I did just go back to your original post, and I believe that while you're correct about the early break in oil changes, I do feel that unless you're towing big loads, once broken in, the 15k interval isn't hype or out of range at all - using quality synthetics. As I said, I've seen several oil analyses of cummins with this type of mileage on the oil, with very very good results. Once I hit 15k and switch to synthetic, I will be doing 10K changes with oil analysis just to humor the paranoia in me, however I've been told by many that 15K on these new clean burning engines is fully reasonable. My friend Joe who has a 2000 cummins with dd2, comp, and bigger turbo(waaay dirtier than a 03 HPCR engine) does 10k changes, and his oil analysis results are still good. This gives me a lot of confidence.
However I did just go back to your original post, and I believe that while you're correct about the early break in oil changes, I do feel that unless you're towing big loads, once broken in, the 15k interval isn't hype or out of range at all - using quality synthetics. As I said, I've seen several oil analyses of cummins with this type of mileage on the oil, with very very good results. Once I hit 15k and switch to synthetic, I will be doing 10K changes with oil analysis just to humor the paranoia in me, however I've been told by many that 15K on these new clean burning engines is fully reasonable. My friend Joe who has a 2000 cummins with dd2, comp, and bigger turbo(waaay dirtier than a 03 HPCR engine) does 10k changes, and his oil analysis results are still good. This gives me a lot of confidence.
I can go with the bearings needing very little time for breakin, but I still wouldn't consider the engine broke in until the rings were fully seated.
The reason being, if I took his statement literally and drove it around the block and decided well it's broke in now, time for synthetic oil. The rings would never seat, and cummins would be telling me I never let it fully break in before I went to synthetic oil.
I just dont see it as marketing hype to make me think they are just starting in their long service life. I guess I think like cummins thinks, the seating of the rings is an important part of break in, and can't be discounted.
As for changing the oil early, absolutely. I will change mine every 2500 until 20000, then it will be 7500 unless analysis says earlier.
Do you guys change filters every 7500? Or inbetween oil changes?
The reason being, if I took his statement literally and drove it around the block and decided well it's broke in now, time for synthetic oil. The rings would never seat, and cummins would be telling me I never let it fully break in before I went to synthetic oil.
I just dont see it as marketing hype to make me think they are just starting in their long service life. I guess I think like cummins thinks, the seating of the rings is an important part of break in, and can't be discounted.
As for changing the oil early, absolutely. I will change mine every 2500 until 20000, then it will be 7500 unless analysis says earlier.
Do you guys change filters every 7500? Or inbetween oil changes?
The main problem I have with what you're saying is you say the 'rings would never seat' . This is just not true, as evidenced by the many auto manufacturers that fill their engines with synthetic from day 1. Both of my diesels had synthetic from day 1... with 47 and 59k, I sure would bet money the rings have seated...
Phil, believe me, with more than 20 years of working with only diesel engines and lubricants, the man knows what he's talking about. Also , as said before, the marketing guys also have a vested interest in Cummins' statements. George has nothing to gain, and just tells it like it is.
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