New Cummins engine oil

[PhilMorrell]

I dont doubt his experience for a second, but I would bet a nickel that the rings in our diesels have a much harder surface coating than the cars of today coming out with synthetic from the factory. you can get high performance chromed rings for cars that take a while to seat as well.



I wonder what cummins would say to his opinion? does anyone know a cummins engineer that would give an honest answer, rather than just the standard, read the warranty sir.

 

[LightmanE300]

Good question Phil. Try getting a straight answer about EGR out of them... :-laf

 

[ralphr]

guess I turned in way to early, looks like you carried on a good discussion while I slept! IMHO, there is a LOT more happening with these engines than just the bearings and rings seating. LightmanE300's freind is right about tolerances and seating quickly, but remember these engines are computer controlled, and the computer adjusts to your "driving habits" so the right amount of fuel air mixture gets burned at the right time. All the people saying "drive as if you stole it" and haul something heavy, or tow big loads are right on, the TCM and PCM and whatever else "learns early on" what is required. also as I stated before you also have to consider the drive train brakes etc that also need a "break in" period so that it alll comes together.



Any ways this has been a real good discussion. thanks:-{}

 

[LPChristensen]

Lightman, I believe that your idea about going 15K on synthetic oil after the break in period is probably sound reasoning. I am not sure which path I will take when I feel my engine is fully broken in, put in synthetic and let it go for 10 to 15K or a good quality oil and change it more ofter. But, and there is always a but, the owner's manual that comes with the truck indicates that most drivers will fall into the schedule "B" service which includes changing the oil at 7500 miles. The manual (page 348 in the 03 book) lists some of the items that will put you into the "B" schedule as:



* Day or night temperatures below 32 degrees

* Stop and go driving

* Extensive engine idling

* Driving in dusty conditions

* Short trips of less than 10 miles

* More than 50% of your driving is a sustained high speed during hot weather, above 90 degrees

* Trailer towing

* Taxi, police or delivery service, commercial services

* Off road or desert operations



Now, unless you get your oil changed and hit the road for a long trip, in ideal weather, not too hot and not too cold, without a load, no stop and go traffic, you are back to getting your oil changed at 7500 miles, synthetic or not. Most of us can not qualify for schedule "A" and the 15,000 mile oil change interval. I know that realistically, if you don't do a great deal of the things that are listed as harmful according to schedule "B", you can probably use a high quality oil and get near the 15,000 mile mark. But my point in the original post was that DC having advertisements that proclaim that you can go 15K between oil changes is unrealistic, at best, for most. It is comparable to Sears selling a washing machine that advertises that it will last 50 years, but when you read the manual, it says that plugging in the washing machine and using it will greatly reduce that time period.



Just food for thought.

 

[LightmanE300]

I agree that most people fall under the 7500 mile schedule. However, that is for dino oil, not synthetic... . The synthetic will have much greater TBN retention and less additive depletion over an extended drain. I would follow the owners' manual religiously if I were going to use dino oil. . I'd even be slightly apprehensive going 7500 on dino, however it IS a big sump. I think the distinction here is that Cummins' recommendation encompasses all possibilities..... to avoid people going 15000 miles on dino and sludging their engine up, in other than perfect conditions. Again, I would likely only go 10-15k on synthetic, probably with a filter change halfway through the interval.

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by ralphr



these engines are computer controlled, and the computer adjusts to your "driving habits". All the people saying "drive as if you stole it" and haul something heavy, or tow big loads are right on, the TCM and PCM and whatever else "learns early on" what is required.

I did not realize that there was a memory feature in the Cummins. Can you point out where I can read more about that feature? I just thought that the computer systems just adjusted to the driving conditions that are happening at that moment Please elaborate. Thanks

 

[ralphr]

Just read the posts here! people who bought the same exact Dodge have differant experiances fuel millage differances, performance etc. Read the posts from people who have had a PCM or TCM changed out for whatever reason, they claim truck "performs differant" Trouble codes are stored in memory, so why can't small adjustments in timming, fueling etc also be storred?:--)

 

[LightmanE300]

I personally don't believe that the computer stores or learns timing or fueling habits. I've heard of adaptable transmissions, that learn your driving habits and adjust shift points accordingly, but never fueling/timing. I think there is a wide variety in fuel mileage etc due to the fact there are so many different configurations of truck size, drive, trans, etc... . I'd love to see some data supporting your assertion though Ralph... . not saying I know for a fact you're wrong, it just seems highly unlikely...

 

[ralphr]

Lightman, I do not know for sure if they store "driving info" althogh I did read in Newsweek, that US auto makers were shipping vehicles capable of caputuring driving info that could be used in accident investigations, (something like the "balck box" in airliners) that had info such as what gear, what speed etc. etc. I think I also saw a peice on one of the networks, (maybey FOX??), where they were debating whether or not that was a good thing, (if you were in an accident the other driver could "supena your "black box" and use the info against you in court. :-{}



But back to the question, no I do not have any hard facts just my Humble Opinion, and reading the various threads here over the years. I could very well be wrong on this one! I do know that after a while, (a long while 20K plus miles your engine is "differant"? ), but I do not think it is that the rings are finnally seated! there is something else that is going on!???:{

 

[dieselpilot1969]

I saw something on another board a while back, there is a device that can be plugged into our trucks pcm and "it will" show everything the motor has ever done right down to how many hours in (it's lifetime) it has been let to idle

 

[Carlton Bale]

Originally posted by LightmanE300

I personally don't believe that the computer stores or learns timing or fueling habits.

You are correct. The timing, fueling, boost, etc. maps do not change over time. If they did, emissions testing would become very difficult. There are many other variables that affect performance, such as ambient temperature, pressure, humidity, fuel etc. Plus no two drivers have the exact same habits. That's the cause of any variation.



Cummins recently completed a great deal of engine validation on the new "Premium Blue Extreme" synthetic oil. It meets API CI-4 and Cummins Engineering Standard 20078 specifications. One of the advantages of this oil is that it is an all climate 5W40 (5W is for low temperature starting, 40 for high-temperature operation). Previously, very cold climates required a different oil.



As far as oil changes are concerned, the manual is correct but early oil changes will not hurt anything. In general, the oil filter and oil need to be changed when the filter is no longer able to clean the oil of contaminates and when the additive package of the oil is depleted. The owners manual gives accurate guidelines based on driving style as to when this maintenance should occur (7,500 miles or 15,000 miles) since monitoring the oil composition and filter capacity is not practical.

 

[Dean Upson]

As always, thank you, Carlton. You have been the source of much clarification and education over these past months. I am thankful that you are on the forum .



Dean

 

[DLeno]

This has been a great thread, characterized by a search for the best answer as upposed to defending any particular position. Just wanted to express my thanks to all participants.



One thing that still pokes at me as an interesting distinction is the concept of "break in", what that means and how you measure whether or not an engine is "broken in". What the engine guys mean by break-in is "oil consumption stabalized". What consumers and many marketing types talk about is "fuel economy doesn't improve anymore". hence all the stories about fuel economy improving over a long period of time, sometimes over many 10s of thousands of miles. NOt saying those experiences are not true, just that the explanation should probably not be "engine break-in". makes me wonder what additional changes in conforming parts' coefficients of friction actually do over time. and its not all because of the engine either!



BTW, oil analysis can indeed help you confirm that short interval changes are benificial. I did this on my 02 and saw several elements (silica included, from the sand casting) that are associated with a new engine. it was nice to see those go down, and it was nice to have a lube engineer explain all that!

 

[kbarlow]

Originally posted by Carlton Bale

... . In general, the oil filter and oil need to be changed when the filter is no longer able to clean the oil of contaminates and when the additive package of the oil is depleted... .

Carlton,



Do you know the TBN of Valvoline PB and also for the Extreme when it is new. I believe I read somewhere that oil should be replaced when the TBN was depleted to 50 percent or is there a better way to determine when to do the change?

Thanks Carlton your help is always appreciated.



Ken

 

[LPChristensen]

Carlton, thanks you for the information you provided on this posting and well as several others that I have read where you were the source of valuable information. But I am confused again, I felt like I was in the light of knowlede on this Cummins engine oil issue, but now I'm back in the woods again. If the Cummins engine leaves the factory with "Premium Blue Extreme" synthetic oil, why is it that not evident in the owner's manual? The only thing that I have ever read in the owner's manual about synthetic oil is it's use in very cold, arctic conditions. Had I known that the engine came with synthetic oil in it, I would not have put Rotella-T in in when I dumped it at 2K. And lastly, I thought I read on the Cummunis FAQ or the Dodge web site that synthetic was not recommended until after a certain mileage, 20K or so. Please, please try and set the record straight for me and others that I am sure are confused as well. Thanks,

 

[Duck]

TDR lubrication posts are the best, aren't they?

 

[LPChristensen]

I just went to the Cummins web site,FAQ section, and read that Cummins does not recommend synthetic oil until after the engine is broken in, from 5 to 20K miles. They do not recommend synthetic oil, but it leaves the factory with synthetic oil? Something just does not seem right!

 

[adsharpe]

Originally posted by LPChristensen

But I am confused again, I felt like I was in the light of knowlede on this Cummins engine oil issue, but now I'm back in the woods again. If the Cummins engine leaves the factory with "Premium Blue Extreme" synthetic oil, why is it that not evident in the owner's manual?

The factory fill is not synthetic according to the factory. Go to <www.cummins.com> and check it out or contact with email the < -- email address removed -- > and ask him.



This is the last time I'm going to post this. Oo.

 

[LPChristensen]

Adsharpe, please read the post from Carlton Bales a few back from my last. With his position , you would think he knows something about this, and he says the engine leaves the factory with "Premium Blue Extreme" synthetic oil. I was just commenting on his post so please don't think I'm slow to catch on here.

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by LPChristensen

Adsharpe, please read the post from Carlton Bales a few back from my last. With his position , you would think he knows something about this, and he says the engine leaves the factory with "Premium Blue Extreme" synthetic oil. I was just commenting on his post so please don't think I'm slow to catch on here.

I'm sure Carlton just miss typed that reply. They leave the factory with dino in them.