New here and considering a diesel

[JFortner5]

Hello everyone. My name is Joey and I’m from Helena, AL (a little south of Birmingham). I’ve always been interested in diesel trucks and Cummins powered Rams but never have owned one. I currently own a 2011 Silverado 2500HD with the 6.0L Vortec. We’ve been planning on getting a camper and my neighbor was selling his truck right when I started looking so we bought it. It’s a nice truck and only has 64k miles. We’ve had it for about 6 months. We finally just purchased our travel trailer a week ago today. It’s a 32-33’ Keystone with a slide and dry weight supposedly is just a hair under 7k and GVWR is 9585lbs. I doubt we will load that much into it or probably ever fill the water tank but I know RV dry weights are not very accurate. With that said I’d imagine we will be 8500-9k lbs loaded up and ready to go.

Whatever the dry weight actually is, it was not a great experience pulling it home with my 6.0L. My truck it turns out has 3.73 gears and is rated to tow 9500lbs. The same truck with 4.10’s gets a 12500lb rating. It seemed the handle the weight ok and stopped just fine, but I really had to give it some gas to get it up to speed. I never got on the interstate with it but I can tell I’m not gonna like it. I hate the downshifting and revving way up. When we started looking at campers we were looking at some smaller lighter ones but we fell in love with the one we got.

With that long winded backstory out of the way I can get to my question. Does a diesel truck pretty much just stay in OD with the converter locked up while towing out on the highway? I guess what I’m after is a more relaxed experience towing and I don’t want to be underpowered.

Thanks for your help,
Joey

 

[Wiredawg]

Welcome! IMHO, diesel is the way to go for hauling/towing heavy loads. Gasser can do it, but the experience isn't the same. Powerbands much higher on gasser = higher RPMs and about half the torque as diesel. You could change the rings/pinions on your Chevy $4K+ ($2K+/axle) and get some better performance. Or trade out for a diesel. Depends on what you want, how much you want to spend, and if the cost is worth it.

 

[JFortner5]

My neighbor gave me a pretty good deal on the truck, about $8k under book value. I’ve got a guy I work with that has wanted to buy it since I bought it. I can give him a good deal and still come out pretty good too. I need to go on some test drives.

 

[Wiredawg]

keep us posted, always like seeing a new Ram/Cummins owner.

 

[petersonj]

Does a diesel truck pretty much just stay in OD with the converter locked up while towing out on the highway?

In general the answer is yes, BUT not all diesel engines are treated equally. When you think of the over-the-road semi trucks that are pulling heavy loads all day long, those truck almost always are equipped with an in-line six cylinder, long stroke diesel engine. Then Cummins 5.9 liter and 6.7 liter diesel engines are built just like those engines.

Your 6.0 liter gas engine displacement is virtually the same displacement as the 5.9 liter Cummins engine. After that, they are nothing alike.

6.0 Vortec bore and stroke - 4.00 x 3.62 (note short stroke)
5.9 Cummins diesel bore and stroke ... 4.02 x 4.72 (note long stroke, this contributes to high torque at low rpm's)

Here is a comparison of your engine and my stock engine in my 2002 truck.

2011 6.0L Vortec ....... - 322 hp @4400 rpm, 380 lb-ft @ 4200 rpm
2002 Cummins 5.9L.... - 245 hp @2700 rpm, 505 lb-ft @ 1600 rpm

I highlighted the peak torque values because torque is what moves heavy loads. Your engine will be required to reach 4200 rpm before peak torque is achieved. The Cummins in this example reaches a much higher peak torque at only 1600 rpm. That gets heavy things moving. Because peak torque in the Cummins is at such a low rpm, I spend well over 95% of the time driving in the 1500 rpm to 2000 rpm range, even when pulling heavy loads. And yes, I tow in overdrive.

Now, if you want to compare your 2011 6.0L Vortec to a 2011 Dodge Cummins with a 6.7L diesel, the gap regarding torque is huge.

Late 2011 6.7L Cummins with 68RFE (auto trans) - torque is 800 lb-ft @1600 rpm. No problem for this transmission to tow in overdrive with locked converter. In fact, this transmission has two overdrives.

Anyway, something for you to ponder.

- John

 

[AH64ID]

The reason gas engines have to rev so much higher is the lower torque ratings. The torque required to keep a load moving doesn’t care how it’s made, it’s just made at a lower rpm with diesel. Engine torque is multiplied thru the transmission gears and axle gears, so an engine with lower torque needs to be in a lower gear to get that torque at the wheels where it needs to be.

But torque is far from all that matters. There is no timeframe associated with torque, so it could take 1 second to do that work or it could take all week. That’s where horsepower comes into play, horsepower is the rate at which the torque is applied. 1hp at 1000 lb/Ft will do a lot of work, very slowly. It’s a balance.

So it’s very important to have both. Give @petersonj’s examples of his truck and yours, his truck would get a load moving easier but your truck could move it faster up a hill (assuming perfect speeds for the gearing). You would be revved up to 4K plus thou. It’s less comfortable, but the engine is designed for it. Tow ratings are primarily based on getting moving and up to speed, and less about maintaining speed on a grade. SRW trucks are only required to maintain 45 mph on the grade test used for modern tow ratings.

Aside from wanting to tow in OD, there are other things to consider. How often do you tow? Do you have a short commute for the truck when you aren’t towing? 9500lbs isn’t all that heavy for modern gas engines, so you really need to look at how you use the truck. Diesels are more expensive to operate and maintain, but we pretty much all think it’s worth it around here.

 

[Timd32]

Your mind could be made up to jump ship. Which is great.

Welcome aboard, I have both a 2018 6.4L Gasser which will easily pull that trailer all day NJ to CA, and not miss a beat. It will get 8-9MPH from NJ to the Midwest, probably less out west for sure at times. It will wind out high revs, but normal crusing, the roads in America are horrible, around Indianapolis was the worst IMO. No offense, just they sucked. Then have a '22 monster 6.7, way too much truck. You can easily over buy a Diesel.

But if budget is in play, give this 2011 the best shot you can, and maybe use some of the savings to enjoy the time at your destination.

Any pictures of your trailer on the truck?

How level is your set up, do you have good weight distribution, do you need or use a weight distribution hitch.

Set your air pressures, check them all the time pre-trip, check trailer tires, visually check them all the time each stop I walk around while fueling and just put and eye on things, feel the hubs once in a while for anything super hot.

Head over to the local scales and know your truck with no trailer, full tank, you in the seat and if your super loaded with stuff inside account for that.

Then load up you trailer and get those weight.

That costs less then $20 and is super valuable info.

That goes for Gas or Diesel, need to know what you have and put it in a good spot for the truck.

That goes a long way.

Good luck with your truck.

 

[JFortner5]

Wow thanks for all the replies so far. I do have a weight distribution hitch with anti sway (friction not dual cam). I’m hoping we will be using it at least once or twice a month and probably more in the summer.

My budget will be in the $20k range hopefully. I’m hoping to find a decent late 5.9L or maybe an early 6.7L. I’d prefer a manual transmission but I’ll probably go automatic just in case the wife needed to drive it.

Thanks again,
Joey

 

[Topzide]

@JFortner5, Welcome to TDR! Great to see your interest in getting a RAM to make your towing more "comfortable". Not sure what you'd be able to find for 20K. One thing to be aware of, if truck has emissions, make sure that those components haven't been removed (deleted). More and more areas are cracking down on that with gas engines being looked at now! I would use the setup that you have for a couple of trips to save up and look around for something, Diesel truck $'s are through the roof right now! Since you have something to pull TT, this will give you time to be able to shop around. Keep a look out on the "classified section" on here to maybe find a truck that will fit budget. Most of us on TDR are a bit over the top on how we keep our trucks! Most if not all have maintenance log and fuel logs. Diesels are a bit more costly to own and run, but well worth it! I got mine in 2018 and was first diesel truck. Have a 2001 1500 5.9 gasser that i used to tow a car trailer to rescue the DW and move compact diesel tractors. Now with the 3500 it's night and day different! Looking to get a 5th wheel to do some traveling in the near future. Will be move a 4 car 5th wheel for FIL next month as he needs to junk it and isn't comfortable moving things that big anymore. He's the one I got my truck from and the family $ of 23K with 130K! That's why time is on you side right now. Ask the questions, TDR members will have answers or where to find them. Nice TT you've got, get out and enjoy while shopping around. On side note, if you could finance a truck, use that 20K to double up on payments to pay note quicker! Down payments really don't help with month payments due to depreciation on vehicles unless buying used. Good luck with the hunt for truck!

 

[AH64ID]

With the way the used truck market is right now 20K won’t get you very far on diesels in that 3rd Gen era you’re talking about.

Also, in the 3rd Gen the cab is much smaller so that may be a factor depending on your family size. There is also the mega cab, but it comes at a higher premium.

I would suggest you start shopping, but take your time. There could be initial ownership expenses that easily exceed 3K on an older HPCR diesel, so don’t rush in.

 

[JFortner5]

I’m not in a big hurry at all and I do plan on trying it out on a real trip first before I made any decision. I can probably extend my budget up to $25k or maybe a little more without the wife killing me haha.

 

[Cummins12V98]

01.5-02 six speed long bed Sport 2500 4x4 with rear disks IMHO is hard to beat. I have one minus the 6 speed because all I could find were junk.

 

[JFortner5]

I do really like the 2nd gens but I think the smallest cab I’m willing to get is the 3rd gen QC. I’m not brand loyal and have considered Fords with the 7.3L and crew cab or possibly even a GM crew cab. That’s a beautiful truck you’ve got.

 

[petersonj]

I’d prefer a manual transmission but I’ll probably go automatic just in case the wife needed to drive it.

If you prefer a manual transmission, then I recommend that you get a manual transmission. The Cummins engine's high torque at low rpm makes a manual transmission easy to use. To get the load moving, smooth clutch engagement always occurs at idle - no throttle needed (this actually makes it easier for newcomers). No need to excessively rev the engine while up shifting gears. Even in city traffic, you can stay in a higher gear longer with varying traffic conditions, especially if you anticipate how the traffic is flowing. On the highway at speeds above 45 mph you will always be in 6th gear, even when towing.

I think that your wife would easily adapt to driving a Cummins diesel truck with a manual transmission for the small amount of time she would spend driving it. My wife has done so and so has my brother-in-law's wife (they own a 2003 with a 6 spd manual). I know of others, too.

Your budget constraints may put you back into purchasing an older 5.9 liter engine truck (2007 and older). Not an issue as they are quite capable, but the automatic transmission is only a 4 speed.

Since you are allowing lots of time for research and test drives before you purchase, I am sure that you will be happy with whatever you end up with.

- John

 

[Tuesdak]

Whatever the dry weight actually is, it was not a great experience pulling it home with my 6.0L. My truck it turns out has 3.73 gears and is rated to tow 9500lbs. The same truck with 4.10’s gets a 12500lb rating. It seemed the handle the weight ok and stopped just fine, but I really had to give it some gas to get it up to speed. I never got on the interstate with it but I can tell I’m not gonna like it. I hate the downshifting and revving way up. When we started looking at campers we were looking at some smaller lighter ones but we fell in love with the one we got.

You need to find a truck stop scale and weigh the truck and RV, trailer. This way you don't overload it accidentally and this includes too much weight in the rear of the RV etc.

You can buy a $20K Diesel pickup that will need a lot of work. Something goes wrong with a diesel engine it's a $5000 injector problem or $10,000 (or more now) engine replacement/rebuild. They run forever: till they don't. Then you get your wallet and 401K out. Esp. when it's bad injectors that take the engine out!

It's cheaper to buy a late model Diesel Pickup that's still under warranty so when things go wrong it's not all about "What's in your Wallet?" Budget is more like $40-60k+ on up.

The only reason I have a Cummins over a Hemi is because it gets fatiguing to listen to a gasoline engine scream towing up the "miles long extreme grades" we have here. Your area isn't anything that challenging to a gasoline or Diesel engine vs. here.

For getting on the on ramp and getting moving with the 6.0L gas engine, Bluntly, GET USED TO HIGH RPM! You are not going to get and stay moving trying to drive it like an unloaded pickup. It's not unloaded when towing as you hooked something that weighs slightly more then your pickup to it. Rev it up for the relatively short time you need to do so to get up to speed. Hills and grades will also require it to rev up. I have been a passenger with driver terrified to rev an engine up to get up the grade: It SUCKS! Things start to get hot due to low fan and water pump rpm as they lug the engine to death. Most automatics won't let you do that.

Do you really want to spend $60,000 or more so you don't have to push the throttle harder when towing only to find out you have to push it anyway with a Diesel?!

Unhook the trailer and, yeah, it will feel like you stepped into a sports car. It's doorhandles when drag racing a Hemi and my HO Cummins 3500's unloaded at the track.

The 6.0L engine is designed for high RPM so it can be fuel efficient when it's pushing just an empty pickup. Power is found for loads at higher RPM unlike the Big Block's of the past that got single digit MPG no matter what they were doing with a lower redline.

The Cummins Diesel has a lower redline under load than the V8 Diesels around 3200RPM. Just because you don't hear it screaming doesn't mean disaster isn't a few hundred RPM over that low number redline.

 

[JFortner5]

You know I think keeping what I have probably really is the best option. I am comfortable doing my own work but diesel parts are very expensive and I really don’t want somebody else’s problem. I’ve quickly realized that $20-25k doesn’t get you very far in this crazy market. I’m not scared to rev the 6.0L I’m sure it would run at 4000rpm all day if I asked it to.

 

[Timd32]

You know I think keeping what I have probably really is the best option. I am comfortable doing my own work but diesel parts are very expensive and I really don’t want somebody else’s problem. I’ve quickly realized that $20-25k doesn’t get you very far in this crazy market. I’m not scared to rev the 6.0L I’m sure it would run at 4000rpm all day if I asked it to.

Or atleast give it a shot. I have both and the gasser does great, just as mentioned it's hard on them, the newer gasser engines have a bunch of upper engine issues, so better to be pretty strict with your oil changes and service.

You will still benefit from a full fluid change for pretty much everything.

Good luck with your rig.

 

[Ozymandias]

You know I think keeping what I have probably really is the best option. I am comfortable doing my own work but diesel parts are very expensive and I really don’t want somebody else’s problem. I’ve quickly realized that $20-25k doesn’t get you very far in this crazy market. I’m not scared to rev the 6.0L I’m sure it would run at 4000rpm all day if I asked it to.

That's probably wise.
Stay with that nice GM is smarter at that point.

 

[Topzide]

@JFortner5, You can always start a "diesel fund" to get one in the future! You're correct about the working on and parts pricing. Your current rig will do the job, so get out and enjoy the time with family! As you have more questions or find trucks, check back in here and post up. TDR members will offer help with those questions. Glad we could help you with this. Remember to keep a good maintenance schedule with towing that load.

 

[Cummins12V98]

2nd gen parts are CHEAP compared to the modern diesels.