New Lockup Torque Converters

[KatDiesel]

Originally posted by dramer

It shifts factory and no auto trans truck beat it on the dynomomter that day. This product will give any truck the factory lockup back.

Hmm maybe I should have went to CO instead of blowing out a turbo last weekend What about those of use that thinks the factory shifts kinda stink? I hated waiting for "factory" lockup to occur... . now I don't miss it.

 

[dramer]

Re: Re: New Lockup Torque Converters

Originally posted by KatDiesel







Hmm maybe I should have went to CO instead of blowing out a turbo last weekend What about those of use that thinks the factory shifts kinda stink? I hated waiting for "factory" lockup to occur... . now I don't miss it.

Well we have no problem with making lock-up come in second gear, third gear & Fourth gear. If firm shifts are needed thats the easy part. Also the nice thing is engine braking in fourth, Third, & Second With 100% of the power to the ground not 93% of the power. The customers that we talk to that drive under major mountains want the power and engine braking. We like fluid coupling and lock-up so it's nice to have the entire cake dont you think. We were wondering about the LCT1000 allisons that we are working on they have lock-up! I wonder if we remove it would anybody miss it? We were wondering about the extra power-loss what a waste of energy. I like all of my power to get to the ground it makes such simple sense dont you think.

 

[ATSDiesel]

Originally posted by MCummings





Cool.

Looks like there is some competition in the field now.



I think it would be impossible to pass DTT in customer service though. (you're not doin' to bad )



Keep up the good work,, You are in a tough field.

Run with the big dogs ! Glad to see not everybody is staying on the porch



MerrickNJr

Healthy competition is good…! I don't feel we are necessarily competitors. DTT has a GREAT product, we just have different opinions and what direction we want to go. I have been listening to our customers for years, complain about their transmissions. We addressed the initial concerns with a fluid coupling, which lowered heat and increased torque multiplication. This was definitely a step in the right direction, but this only addressed HALF the problems with this converter. (Which I know from my wife, is not a good thing. . lol). The customers have wanted their lock-up back. (And rightfully so….



We all agree, a single lock-up piston is only good for mild engines. The introduction of a multiple disc lock-up clutch allows us/you to double the holding force of the original clutch. So three clutches mean, three times the mechanical holding force, with the same hydraulic pressure. Our customers asked for satisfaction and we do our best to deliver.



Thank you for your time. I and everyone here at ATS and PTC really appreciate your time in expressing your opinion…Have a great weekend…



Clint Cannon

Automotive Transmission Specialist Inc,

Owner

 

[Cummins Corvette]

There will be no fireworks here, at least not from me. Sorry guys, you can come down now. As far as I know, ATS has a clean slate. I think that Bill will have some real competition now. The market is wising up. I WILL NOT take anything from Bill though. He is paying for my truck diagnosis I will get tomorrow. Bill is truly a saint, as said before many times over by others on this site. The man knows who keeps him in business. I think that I might try one of these new converters in a while. 91% is great, but 100% would definitely be better. I am shooting for 500hp, 91% of 500 hp is 455 and that 45 hp could easily be the difference in winning and loosing. Someone go buy one of these things so we can see how it does!!!!!!!!!



Ok one question- If you make the converter handle 1000 ft/lbs of torque, how is the rest of the transmission going to hold with the factory line pressure? The TCC won’t slip, but how the heck are the clutches and bands going to hold that? dramer or CCannon what is your take on this, eh?

 

[Strick-9]

Don,

I'm all for new ideas and inventions. This field (diesel performance) is young and growing. It's the prime opportunity for new designs.



With that being said, the thing that caught me as odd was the fact that you could do this without increasing pressures. I read on another thread that this truck dyno'd at 319HP and 1003 ft-lbs of torque. On this thread there was some indecision as to whether the dyno was operating correctly during this run. To me that seems like a LOT of torque for such a low HP number.



Regardless of whether or not the numbers are right, is this the most powerful truck that this convertor has been installed in?



Back when my truck was putting out 380 HP or thereabouts, I slipped the front clutch bad enough to weld the disks to the steels. This was with increased VB pressures and I know that I wasn't at 1003 ft-lbs of torque.



Will your new TC design make the front clutch the new weak link or the OD clutches or what?



I'd like to see it tested behind more than 319 HP before the 100% power transfer statement will hold.



Either way, good luck.

-Chris

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Ya, what Strick-9 said.

 

[SlyBones]

OH come you guys, did that other transmission tread wear us all out??



"The TDR was on site to see this torque converter work. This will give back 100% of the torque to the ground with less heat (not 89-93%) Also we make the stator inside with maximum efficiency. "



"So if you want 93% fluid coupling we have it but than here comes lock-up and you get the rest of what you deserve to get to the ground. "



"Also the nice thing is engine braking in fourth, Third, & Second With 100% of the power to the ground not 93% of the power. "





Well here are my 3 phrases that make me wonder.



-- First it seems to that all transmissions with lockup clutches tranfer 100% power when locked up. The question is about holding power. And it seems to me that auto trannys make heat when in fluid coupling, not when locked up ( or very little ). -- Anyways your statement makes it sound like you were comparing a lockup TC against a non locked up TC. Which is not a apples to apples comparison. And all the existing TC's for our trucks are locking TC's. DTT, BD, SunCoast and even stock all have lockup clutches and operate like you mentioned.



-- Second one. OK we all have 100% efficiency when locked, but what about efficiecny when unlocked. For me you used that OH YEAH WE GOT 93% way to willy nilly like. There have been a lot of threads about TC efficiency, turbo lag, and the power required to drive them. So what if I only want an 89% or a 91% or something like that?? Seems that 93% is for the real HP guys and the average middle road BOMBer wants 89-91%.



-- Third one. When you let off the throttle the factory PCM tells the transmission to disengage the lockup clutch. So how do you get 100% efficiency in retarting power, unless you have a SmartController or AutoLoc, etc. And with these devices everyone has this. This is nothing new. And yes BD and DTT can all do lockup in 4th, 3rd, and 2nd as well. So what gives?



OK. I dont mean to flame the product. It very well may be the best thing going. Just many of these comment make me think, you think, none of us have ever driven a truck with a TC in it that has a lockup clutch. When in reality all with maybe the exception of 2nd gear lock up, all our trucks behave the way you describe.



What I read is a TC that has potential for a lockup clutch that will really hold under heavy power and/or load. If combined with the proper efficiency and a good shifting VB it will be really nice.



Like the few before me I would like to see

-- Serious high HP testing of the lockup clutch over a long term test. Not 1 or 2 dyno runs, but a 400hp truck, towing a 12K 5er, for an entire summer with some abusive conditions.

-- A little more about the unlocked efficiency and how you get there, designs, etc.

-- More on the we dont need to mess with the VB stuff.



Thanks,

 

[dramer]

Originally posted by CAnderson

There will be no fireworks here, at least not from me. Sorry guys, you can come down now. As far as I know, ATS has a clean slate. I think that Bill will have some real competition now. The market is wising up. I WILL NOT take anything from Bill though. He is paying for my truck diagnosis I will get tomorrow. Bill is truly a saint, as said before many times over by others on this site. The man knows who keeps him in business. I think that I might try one of these new converters in a while. 91% is great, but 100% would definitely be better. I am shooting for 500hp, 91% of 500 hp is 455 and that 45 hp could easily be the difference in winning and loosing. Someone go buy one of these things so we can see how it does!!!!!!!!!



Ok one question- If you make the converter handle 1000 ft/lbs of torque, how is the rest of the transmission going to hold with the factory line pressure? The TCC won’t slip, but how the heck are the clutches and bands going to hold that? dramer or CCannon what is your take on this, eh?

We went back to the basic transmission and not just the torque converter. The test that we needed to perform is a stock line pressure test with high torque. After this was performed the test came back with not one failure of the clutch's, along with the torque converter. This gave us the playing field that we needed to start with; offer the general public a reliable product without so many mods that we are re-inventing the transmission. Too much renovating removes reliability that customers need not deal with. Now if we are going to maintain real hi power all of the time this will need some very slight changes in the valve body to insure the long life needed. Some of you are pushing out serious HP & Torque. So we are ready for the task and are performing this as we speak. My 2001 Dodge ram was done on a parasitic draw down test we feel this showed a low on the HP. The truck has run the same close torque numbers on other dyno's and the HP was 496 HP at 1097 Ft Lbs. The transmission and torque converter has 21,413 miles on it. This R&D test was done for reason. After time we will also show some work that we also do to the clutch’s and hard parts inside for the real serious people. Please note in our comments in this post that we have been in the racing world for a very long time. Our shop can machine any part that we need right in house. We have an elecro-mag dyno, CNC Machine's Clutch bonders, balancers, and much more. We can brake anything and find the fix. We have 26 full time workers and three companies in one. We have a full time power train engineer on staff. We have a full time fluid engineer.

This is what has taken ten years of hard work. We have followed the problem with the transmissions. When others were going forward with some help on the problems we also were testing. So in that thought you all know the saying there will be NO WINE BEFOR TIME.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Can you make a better output shaft?

 

[ATSDiesel]

Originally posted by Strick-9

Don,

I'm all for new ideas and inventions. This field (diesel performance) is young and growing. It's the prime opportunity for new designs.



With that being said, the thing that caught me as odd was the fact that you could do this without increasing pressures. I read on another thread that this truck dyno'd at 319HP and 1003 ft-lbs of torque. On this thread there was some indecision as to whether the dyno was operating correctly during this run. To me that seems like a LOT of torque for such a low HP number.



Regardless of whether or not the numbers are right, is this the most powerful truck that this convertor has been installed in?



Back when my truck was putting out 380 HP or thereabouts, I slipped the front clutch bad enough to weld the disks to the steels. This was with increased VB pressures and I know that I wasn't at 1003 ft-lbs of torque.



Will your new TC design make the front clutch the new weak link or the OD clutches or what?



I'd like to see it tested behind more than 319 HP before the 100% power transfer statement will hold.



Either way, good luck.

-Chris

Chris, you quote "I'm all for new ideas and inventions" we are defiantly into new products and inventions. This is what drives us. One thing I have learned from the past is: do not re-invent the wheel; pay attention to other peoples successes and mistakes. I feel the engineers that have had the education and training can teach us a lot. Longevity is the key. The weak point on the 47/RH/RE has defiantly been the torque converter clutch, there are only three areas you can work with to increase the holding power of the TCC clutch. 1) Over all diameter 2) Hydraulic Pressure 3) Surface area square. The only way we found a way to equal the mechanical holding ability of the torque converter was to build a 'clutch pack' inside of the torque converter. The theory is: all components fail equally. At this point the out put of the engine causes slip in all friction components equally. This is the time to gradually increase line pressure of the transmission. To answer your question "Will your new TC design make the front clutch the new weak link or the OD clutches or what", We have found the forward clutch to be the weak link in this transmission as far as frictional coefficient. Although the forward clutch only slips under the most extreme conditions. You guessed it, theirs a fix. Add another forward clutch.



PS: You wrote “MAJOR air sys up-grades in progress" RIGHT ON, compound turbo-charging is COOL



Clint Cannon

Automotive Transmission Specialist inc.

 

[Strick-9]

Good answer!



Not to get off topic, but MAJOR air system upgrades isn't just adding another turbo. Lots of people have tried that.



-Chris

 

[dramer]

Originally posted by Strick-9

Good answer!



Not to get off topic, but MAJOR air system upgrades isn't just adding another turbo. Lots of people have tried that.



-Chris

Well we have used many turbo's and looked at them for even balance of the compressor & turban design. We make our own combination until better comes along. The single & Twins & Compound or Staged (which is the same) is all that we know is available for now. However the new variable pitch or variable vain or slide would be nice. We are looking at the primary turbo charger with our compounds to be the best for now. Our luck is the waste gate control over both turbo chargers. Followed with the balance in flow maps. With the calculating of p2. The boost is very controllable with both of them waste gated. By slowing the primary or secondary, (boost is very controllable) the wear life of ether TC is also cut to about 30%

 

[Un-Hemi]

The way I read it, this 'converter' locks up off idle and stays that way until back at idle. Hmmmmm... .....

 

[Shovelhead]

It's begining to sound like someone might have built the poverbial "Better Mousetrap".

 

[ATSDiesel]

Originally posted by TommyTurbosaurus

The way I read it, this 'converter' locks up off idle and stays that way until back at idle. Hmmmmm... .....

The lock-up timing is controled by grounding the lock-up solenoid. This is true with all lock-up converters. Our converter is just like any other as far as to when it locks or unlocks. Hope this helps clear up the confusion.

Clint Cannon

 

[Timinator]

Originally posted by CCannon

The lock-up timing is controled by grounding the lock-up solenoid. This is true with all lock-up converters. Our converter is just like any other as far as to when it locks or unlocks. Hope this helps clear up the confusion.

Clint Cannon

How does the TC stay locked up for engine braking? Sounds like a "mystery switch" or torqloc type thing.

What is TC efficiency when unlocked? All are 100% efficient when locked.

Do you boost line pressure?

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Everybody ready,



You got popcorn, got your beer, or if you prefer diet cola.

If you are like me , maybe a little vodka in the diet cola.



Well boys, you guys are outa luck.



There are no fireworks required.





It is very apparent that ATS and I are heading in very different directions.



See the tdr membership in general may not be familiar with multi disc clutches, however i am, and a large percentage of diesel owners you guys may not be aware of also are.



These guys are already running these multi disc clutches in their diesel powered trucks.



I find it extremely ironic that this thread comes up at this time, the timing is one in a million.



Of Friday i closed a deal that cost me a lot of money to produce a product to replace the multi disc torque converter clutch.



We have been testing our multi disc replacement system for about 9 months now.



So it is very obvious that ATS and i are not heading down the same path.



I wish them all the best in their future endeavors with this line.



For those of you that may still be confused, you might want to check out the sucess rate the Ford power strokes are having with the multi disc lock up system in their trucks.



I suppose it is possible that the Ford powerstroke makes more torque than the 5. 9 Cummins.



I suppose it is possible that the Ford powerstroke customers are towing much bigger trailers than the Dodge guys.



I can tell you guys this, in my Ford powerstroke i can walk through the multi disc torque converter clutch with only my 50 hp chip in it and i am running 260psi line pressure under full throttle.



A good resource that you guys may want to check out is to go to the Ford website, www.ford-diesel.com



Look at their discussion forums , do your homework.

 

[Bob Wagner]

Congratulations Bill & Crew

Great things happen to those who persevere.



This is only the first of many to come

 

[BLACKRAM]

ATS may think they have found the Holy Grail, but I think it is full of snake oil.

 

[boonsur]

Yawn,

Not the fireworks I might have anticipated (kind of like being a Lions fan).



But it did sort of answer the big question in my mind. If it's that simple, why haven't any of the other major players done it? Looks like they have looked that way, and kept on walking. Sure would be nice if I could tell my local shop to add some clutch material, and all the problems would go away. I hate to be the skeptic. ATS looks like it is a pretty reputable company, and it appears they have done their homework up to this point. It just sounds like they're just arriving at a point that others passed a while ago. I certainly hope it works out.



I did hear some concern about what damage could happen to the rest of the transmission. Will ATS warrantee any trans. damage that could happen as a result of this installation? I'm positive Bill would.



How expensive would this upgrade be? Maybe it will be real suitable to those who don't want to go crazy, but want reliability with some mild BOMBing.



Can't wait to see what the market thinks.