New Lockup Torque Converters

[Shovelhead]

This is why we spend our time and money on the TDR.



I'm no transmission man, nor a diesel wizard, but I know where to go to get answers to my questions.



And sometimes I find out the answer even before I think of the question.

Thanks Bill K.



Gawd, I love this stuff.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Bill I don't want to disagree with you but let’s be at least a little more optimistic here. The way I see it, this should work well. I couldn’t find any info on the ford site. Where is it? I didn’t look for two long; I’m not that patient. Why doesn’t it work? Ok, now the big question, what are you working on? I really want to know, and I know everyone else does too.

 

[Un-Hemi]

What the 47RE REEEEEally needs is a better overdrive ratio. . 69 don't cut it!!

 

[Mopar-muscle]

canderson , i think all you have to do is look for ford transmission problems , they come from the factory with the multi disc TC lining setup .



ATS , if you want to send me a TC To test out i'll be more than happy to do a head to against the DTT unit , i won;'t have a problem finding a stock unmodified VB . i'm pretty sure if your TC will hold the torque that my engine is making , the rest of the transmission won't with factory line pressure , or the sneaker full o **** feeling shifts that come along with stock line pressure .



email me for my shipping address ...

 

[SlyBones]

Originally posted by TommyTurbosaurus

What the 47RE REEEEEally needs is a better overdrive ratio. . 69 don't cut it!!

two more gears would be really nice

 

[Stranger]

This new TC may be great but,

... how does it tow a heavy trailer?

In theory, (I'm in California) it sounds great but, I don't usually race my truck; I tow a big A$$ trailer, what will it do for me?

 

[Fred Swanson]

So all the stock Dodge trannies that I've replaced worn or fried clutches,bands and direct drive lip seals in aren't really needing to be replaced because they are running stock line pressures with stock converters. Now throw in this new converter that doesn't slip and with stock line pressures, the direct drive clutches are going to be okay. Oh yes, increase HP from 200 to 400 while you're at it. And while your at it, add a 10,000 5'er.



I believe I saw a quote from Clint(ATS) that said "Too much renovating removes reliability that customers need not deal with" earlier in this thread.



Something doesn't sound right with this statement, if you ask me. Renovating the original transmission design is exactly what the customer is asking for.



Yes I am a little bit skeptical. Who wouldn't be.

 

[dramer]

Originally posted by Fred Swanson

So all the stock Dodge trannies that I've replaced worn or fried clutches,bands and direct drive lip seals in aren't really needing to be replaced because they are running stock line pressures with stock convertors. Now throw in this new convertor that doesn't slip and with stock line pressures, the direct drive clutches are going to be okay. Oh yes, increase HP from 200 to 400 while you're at it.



I believe I saw a quote from Clint(ATS) that said "Too much renovating removes reliability that customers need not deal with" earlier in this thread.



Something doesn't sound right with this statement, if you ask me. Renovating the original transmission design is exactly what the customer is asking for.



Yes I am a little bit skeptical. Who wouldn't be.

Fred,

A slight amount of line increase under load is not bad for higher Hp & torque. This converter will work on stock engines with NO LINE PRESSURE INCREASE. ALL OTHER CONVERTERS SLIP AT FACTORY LINE. When you are running higher line pressures all of the time, this wears out the pump crescent, pump gears, valve body valves, bores, seals, pistons (braking parts)-ECT. Running higher line pressures put more force on pistons. This will also cause ballooning to the converter cover & piston. To correct this, two things need to happen. Make a stronger cover, which is a ‘Billet Cover’ or reinforcing the factory cover. Some people just don’t use lock-up, only fluid coupling. To NOT use a Billet Lid is cheaper. To reinforce a factory lid, which the factory cover is thin, just covers the problem temporarily. Or, lets just not address the lock-up like some people do. By adding clutch’s, is an addition to holding power without line pressure increases. If you want to get more into detail, we invite your call. If you like the products that you are using, I’ll make it simple, stay with them. Some people just don’t like change AND THAT’S OK. Also make note, that when you are stating direct clutch's, which one???? Are you talking about the high/reverse clutch? The overdrive direct clutches? The overdrive clutch? The forward clutches? The low reverse band, or the intermediate band? Please, help me to help you…let me know, so I can address your concerns.

I think this is going to do it for now guys…. It seems there are a chosen ‘few of you’ out there with set minds…Cool. That’s your option in life. Others thrive and soar…with open minds…

You have just, finally met us.

No more ******* matches…we simply do not have the time. Thanks for yours!

Don

 

[ATSDiesel]

Originally posted by Bill Kondolay

Everybody ready,



You got popcorn, got your beer, or if you prefer diet cola.

If you are like me , maybe a little vodka in the diet cola.



Well boys, you guys are outa luck.



There are no fireworks required.





It is very apparent that ATS and I are heading in very different directions.



See the tdr membership in general may not be familiar with multi disc clutches, however i am, and a large percentage of diesel owners you guys may not be aware of also are.



These guys are already running these multi disc clutches in their diesel powered trucks.



I find it extremely ironic that this thread comes up at this time, the timing is one in a million.



Of Friday i closed a deal that cost me a lot of money to produce a product to replace the multi disc torque converter clutch.



We have been testing our multi disc replacement system for about 9 months now.



So it is very obvious that ATS and i are not heading down the same path.



I wish them all the best in their future endeavors with this line.



For those of you that may still be confused, you might want to check out the sucess rate the Ford power strokes are having with the multi disc lock up system in their trucks.



I suppose it is possible that the Ford powerstroke makes more torque than the 5. 9 Cummins.



I suppose it is possible that the Ford powerstroke customers are towing much bigger trailers than the Dodge guys.



I can tell you guys this, in my Ford powerstroke i can walk through the multi disc torque converter clutch with only my 50 hp chip in it and i am running 260psi line pressure under full throttle.



A good resource that you guys may want to check out is to go to the Ford website, www.ford-diesel.com



Look at their discussion forums , do your homework.

Back in the loop now, had a busy weekend away from the computer.



Bill, nice to hear from you. I believe a lot of people have been awaiting your comments and thoughts.



Comparing our "triple disk" converter to the factory Ford is not comparing apples to apples. The factory Ford "multi-disk" converter has more holding force than any other 12-inch converter we have ever tested. When I say holding force, I mean frictional load capacity. The Ford multi-disk converter has a lot of holding force, but it is not a strong long-term high horse power converter. Simply because of its construction. The construction of the Ford converter is made from very cheap and thin stamped steel. We have spent a great deal of time researching and testing this converter. I must go into some detail here to comment on your statement about the factory Ford multi-disk converter.



If I am not mistaken, Bill, you quote: “in my Ford Powerstroke I can ‘walk through’ the multi disc torque converter clutch with only my 50 hp chip in it and I am running 260psi line pressure under full throttle"



My comments to your statement are as follows…. You say you can ‘walk through’ (slip) the converter clutch with 260PSI on it.



First of all, 260psi line pressure has little to do with converter clutch apply pressure on a Ford. Ford uses a torque converter clutch regulator valve to limit TCC pressure to a maximum of 110psi. The shift kit spring, which most people install in the pump, raises the limit to 150psi. We have tested the Powerstroke with this converter with propane, 4-inch exhaust, over sized injectors and Hyper-max power chip, with no slip. Yes, we did break the converter, but the failures of the Ford converter were dampener and the tabs that hold the ring to the cover for the center clutch. We have also blocked the TCC regulator valve to see what happens. Around 250psi the cover of the factory converter starts to balloon, causing the clutch surface to distort. If this is allowed to happen the clutch will slip. Very high line pressures can act against you is some degree.



My dad always told me too much of a good thing can hurt you. I guess this goes for transmissions too.



There are many more aspects that we have taken into account when designing our triple clutch converters. We have built these converters with engineering, as well as, strengthening the high stress areas to avoid the failures, you see with the "smaller" factory Ford converters. We employ a full time power transmission engineer, to help us with this. I do not like getting into a technical ******* match about converters, but I feel I have been a little pushed.



Please do not confuse our 13 1/2 –inch converters with the factory Ford 12 –inch converter. Just for the record, we do not use any of the wimpy parts in our triple disk, which Ford uses in their factory multi disk converter. This is true with our Ford and Dodge triple disc torque converters.



Last, I feel it necessary to comment on line pressure on the Dodge automatic. We stated the converter would hold under factory line pressure with high horse power. This is true. We DO recommend slight increase in line pressure, for high horse power applications. It is also needed for exhaust braking, or transmission slipping will occur. Or you must use BD’s pressure loc. We offer our valve body with elevated line pressure, manual 1st and 2nd lock-up capability, along with other fixes. I apologize there was some confusion about the line pressure issue.





Clint Cannon

ATS

Automotive Transmission Specialist

www.dieseltransmissions.com

 

[Fred Swanson]

Clint, the confusion I see with this thread is which line you're taking. First the post by Don says the following -

We have a triple clutch torque converter for the Dodge,Ford,Duramax this converter will give back the factory shifts that was used with no line pressure increase. This converter is in one of my trucks that put down 1003 foot pounds of torque at the Colorado Diesel Emissions at Castle Rock Colorado last Saturday. This will give back 100% of the torque to the ground with less heat (not 89-93%) Also we make the stator inside with maximum efficiency

You're saying no line pressure increase with your new converter on a truck with a 300 + HP / 1000+ torque measurement.



Now with this last post you're saying the following:

We DO recommend slight increase in pressure, for high horse power applications. It is also needed for exhaust braking, or transmission slipping will occur. Or you must use BD’s pressure loc. We offer our valve body with elevated line pressure, manual 1st and 2nd lock-up capability, along with other fixesline

Well which is it? What constitutes a slight increase in pressure? What pressure at idle is Don's truck setup at, 52 psi? At what HP do you increase it a little?

According to KGoode in another thread, his is at 96 psi at idle. Is this considered a slight increase, or are the numbers wrong?

How efficient is KGoode's or Don's converter out of lockup? Are either using a milled stator?

Lock up is great for certain situations, but everyday driving under 40 MPH in town it is not practical, especially towing, so that's where a very efficient stator design makes a true difference. I see it everyday when a customer drives their truck after an upgrade. They can't believe it's the same truck.



I have yet to see a DTT converter clutch failure. And yes, it holds up just fine in acceleration tests from 1500 to 3000+RPM in lockup without slipping. Let's see, that's with 400+ HP and torque somewhere near your 1000 ft lb mark. Is it a weaker unit? In the 12 months that I've dealt with DTT converters, I have yet to see one failure.



Please clarify which path you are going down, so readers will understand your intentions. Automatic transmission discussions seem to be a hot topic on the TDR, and I'm sure there are those out there reading very carefully the statements made in this thread.

 

[ATSDiesel]

Originally posted by Fred Swanson

Clint, the confusion I see with this thread is which line you're taking. First the post by Don says the following -





You're saying no line pressure increase with your new converter on a truck with a 300 + HP / 1000+ torque measurement.



Now with this last post you're saying the following:



Well which is it? What constitutes a slight increase in pressure? What pressure at idle is Don's truck setup at, 52 psi? At what HP do you increase it a little?

According to KGoode in another thread, his is at 96 psi at idle. Is this considered a slight increase, or are the numbers wrong?

How efficient is KGoode's or Don's converter out of lockup? Are either using a milled stator?

Lock up is great for certain situations, but everyday driving under 40 MPH in town it is not practical, especially towing, so that's where a very efficient stator design makes a true difference. I see it everyday when a customer drives their truck after an upgrade. They can't believe it's the same truck.



I have yet to see a DTT converter clutch failure. And yes, it holds up just fine in acceleration tests from 1500 to 3000+RPM in lockup without slipping. Let's see, that's with 400+ HP and torque somewhere near your 1000 ft lb mark. Is it a weaker unit? In the 12 months that I've dealt with DTT converters, I have yet to see one failure.



Please clarify which path you are going down, so readers will understand your intentions. Automatic transmission discussions seem to be a hot topic on the TDR, and I'm sure there are those out there reading very carefully the statements made in this thread.

Mr. Fred Swanson



I do not have time to educate some one that would like to pick my work apart. I will make this short and simple. Come to Colorado and bring your best equipment. I will happily house you for the weekend and indulge you to any test you desire.





Clint Cannon

 

[ATSDiesel]

Originally posted by Fred Swanson

Clint, the confusion I see with this thread is which line you're taking. First the post by Don says the following -





You're saying no line pressure increase with your new converter on a truck with a 300 + HP / 1000+ torque measurement.



Now with this last post you're saying the following:



Well which is it? What constitutes a slight increase in pressure? What pressure at idle is Don's truck setup at, 52 psi? At what HP do you increase it a little?

According to KGoode in another thread, his is at 96 psi at idle. Is this considered a slight increase, or are the numbers wrong?

How efficient is KGoode's or Don's converter out of lockup? Are either using a milled stator?

Lock up is great for certain situations, but everyday driving under 40 MPH in town it is not practical, especially towing, so that's where a very efficient stator design makes a true difference. I see it everyday when a customer drives their truck after an upgrade. They can't believe it's the same truck.



I have yet to see a DTT converter clutch failure. And yes, it holds up just fine in acceleration tests from 1500 to 3000+RPM in lockup without slipping. Let's see, that's with 400+ HP and torque somewhere near your 1000 ft lb mark. Is it a weaker unit? In the 12 months that I've dealt with DTT converters, I have yet to see one failure.



Please clarify which path you are going down, so readers will understand your intentions. Automatic transmission discussions seem to be a hot topic on the TDR, and I'm sure there are those out there reading very carefully the statements made in this thread.

O" Fred cinch you want to disect other peoples words let start with yours. Looking at your specs down below you state Piers Super Turbo(HX35-14CM) Or HX40 (12/14/CM

So Which turbo's on your truck HX35-14CM Or HX40-12CM OR

HX40-14CM OR Your Running all of them at the same time? OR ?

SO NOW WE UNDERSTAND THAT WHICH IS IT. So Now thats cleared up. So will you show up with your truck in front of all and lets compare. WHICH IS IT? Or ARE YOU

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Ok people lets not let this get at all hostile. Back down a little Fred. I’m with Clint here, you are getting a bit too picky. I believe he meant that he recommends stock pressure for stock engines, some more for the bombed ones. I think that they might be on to something here. Bill’s converters are very good in fluid coupling, but they could do better in lockup. Mine doesn’t slip, but I have a TC saver so it disengages at full throttle. I can tell you that, on the freeway, my truck does accelerate much faster in lockup. This is why I am interested in this converter. I have a feeling that Bill has something up his sleeve though. Lets give Clint a chance here guys; he doesn’t work for BD. I will tear into BD any time you want, but this isn’t BD here. Lets play nice with the new people unless they leave some people out in the cold and don’t play nice themselves. Then we can pound them into the dirt with BD. But if they do as well as Bill, then they will get equal praise. Bill isn’t perfect and he says some off the wall things sometimes too. Now Clint- what stator are you using? I am damn sure not ever going to buy any converter that doesn’t have a stator as good as DTT’s. So spill it- what is your fluid coupling capability?

 

[dramer]

Originally posted by Fred Swanson

Clint, the confusion I see with this thread is which line you're taking. First the post by Don says the following -





You're saying no line pressure increase with your new converter on a truck with a 300 + HP / 1000+ torque measurement.



Now with this last post you're saying the following:



Well which is it? What constitutes a slight increase in pressure? What pressure at idle is Don's truck setup at, 52 psi? At what HP do you increase it a little?

According to KGoode in another thread, his is at 96 psi at idle. Is this considered a slight increase, or are the numbers wrong?

How efficient is KGoode's or Don's converter out of lockup? Are either using a milled stator?

Lock up is great for certain situations, but everyday driving under 40 MPH in town it is not practical, especially towing, so that's where a very efficient stator design makes a true difference. I see it everyday when a customer drives their truck after an upgrade. They can't believe it's the same truck.



I have yet to see a DTT converter clutch failure. And yes, it holds up just fine in acceleration tests from 1500 to 3000+RPM in lockup without slipping. Let's see, that's with 400+ HP and torque somewhere near your 1000 ft lb mark. Is it a weaker unit? In the 12 months that I've dealt with DTT converters, I have yet to see one failure.



Please clarify which path you are going down, so readers will understand your intentions. Automatic transmission discussions seem to be a hot topic on the TDR, and I'm sure there are those out there reading very carefully the statements made in this thread.

You know fred now that you want to show just how much you know about torque converters. Lets look at your statements You say QUOTE: Lock up is great for certain situations, but everyday driving under 40 MPH in town it is not practical, especially towing. So Fred you being a DTT dealer your saying that fluid coupling does not generate the heat. So your statement is that pulling a big hill under 40MPH in fluid coupling will run cooler than lockup. So lets look at this, the engine is putting down 91% or 93% of the power generated to the ground thats pulling much better than lock-up at 100% to the ground. HMM you might have to help me with my math ? lets see that leave's 7% going were?. O" what about the heat ? O" Also at the bottom of you truck spec's you say 91% or 93% about your truck so which is it? So how do we know ? O" you carry a spare converter ? Fred if your a spoksman for DTT that this does not look like you know your products. Fred I'm not sure that customers would feel like you know torque converters, you might read on fluid coupling a little better. Than look at lock-up to see which one you would want pulling a hill over or under 40mph. Fred you might need to do some more reading about torque converters.

 

[SlyBones]

Hey Clint,



Try not to loose it. You have been doing a good job on this thread. I too found Don's comment to be confusing. And from some of the replies in here, so did a few others. I made a post earlier in this thread where I picked on several of his comments, with no reply. And I am not asking for any. I know the answers I wanted. You have posted them. You have been clearing things up and answering the challange. Dont loose it now, this little battle is prolly close to being over.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Guys, GUYS!! Play nice or I will tell my daddy on you!! We are all sober adults here right? This is not a bar fight UNLESS we have BD on the skewer. We can sit here and tear each other apart and scare ATS away, but they might have something to offer so lets welcome them instead of giving them "Your not Bill, you suck" attitude. Put on some easy music, take a chill pill or some exlax, whatever it takes, but lets give them a chance. This is all I am asking here. ATS this goes for you too. Why do I feel like I am baby sitting?

 

[Cummins Corvette]

SlyBones has spoken. End.

 

[dramer]

Originally posted by CAnderson

Guys, GUYS!! Play nice or I will tell my daddy on you!! We are all sober adults here right? This is not a bar fight UNLESS we have BD on the skewer. We can sit here and tear each other apart and scare ATS away, but they might have something to offer so lets welcome them instead of giving them "Your not Bill, you suck" attitude. Put on some easy music, take a chill pill or some exlax, whatever it takes, but lets give them a chance. This is all I am asking here. ATS this goes for you too. Why do I feel like I am baby sitting?

Not all of us write for a living we build transmissions. We also don't rip others down over a product that we have worked our a***s off for so it would be nice to end this on a better note. This company that is here is like a family.



Thanks Don

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Am I adding to the fire that I am trying to put out? Sorry.

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

CCANNON,DRAMER

If you want us who do not yet have an upgraded TC to be interested in what you are selling, Quit acting like you have something to hide. You say you have sliced bread..... Then you wont tell us how it is cut. You have been acting a little defensive about your product and there is still no real world applications here except for I think one. Then you make fun of people here who are very helpful to us new members. Is this the way you sell you transmission parts? See I have never claimed to be a smart fella but you seem to have something up your sleeve. I am going to upgrade my transmission after Jan. 1. I was real interested in looking into your product. All anyone at tdr hears is DTT DTT DTT. Well I have to say, If I ask Bill a question, or anyone of his trained installers. They answer it with no BS. Answer some questions... .....