Competition Nitrous the "right" way....

[DennisPerry]

Josh,



Sorry about that. The progressive system will work for Comp, but is not needed for applications such as ours(Daily Drivers to ProStreet Trucks). If you are drag racing diesel trucks as heavy as ours the Load of your engine starts as soon as you stage the truck and start to spool the turbo. When you come off of the brakes and go wide open throttle you are at max load and max fuel delivery per the load on the engine. This is the point you want the first stage to activate and begin to burn as much excess fuel as possible. If you try and use the pusle width of a progressive system you will not burn as much fuel and your et will reflect this. Once you have left the line and the first stage is doing it's job then you want to activate the second to burn even more of the excess fuel. If you are trying to pusle it again the the same results will be present as the 1st stage pulsing.



I didn't invent Nitrous by no means but we have extensive backgrounds in using it and developing kits such as the PowerFool2. As long as you understand Nitrous you can have the same results with any companies system on the market. I called all of the Nitrous companies out there and got laughed at and told that there was not a big enough market for them to design a self contained kit for the diesels. That is when I had our engineer design a command center and we made the kit. The PowerFool2 just makes it easy for the novice to use and takes about 2hrs. to install.



Things may have changed now but the last time I checked every Nitrous company sells solenoids, relays, wires, switches, nozzles, etc. I just made them easy to use.



Dennis

 

[JLackman]

So the progressive systems can't deliver the same nitrous flow amount per stage as the non progressive systems - even at 100% pulse width?



There must be some sort of physical flow limitation in the progressive systems then, I wonder what it is?

 

[DennisPerry]

Jlackman,



The amount of flow through the solenoid depends on the solenoid size. If you use at 100% pulse width then there is no purpose for having the progressive controller.



Dennis

 

[COMP461]

Heck I'm still waiting to hear why a progressive controled system isn't as good as the other system.



Josh

Here is the run down on progressive VS. non progressive. In the beginning of progressive controllers, the method of choice was to progressively pulse the solenoids at a faster cyclically rate, to establish the amount of nitrous delivered.

The pulse rate at the highest and almost continuous flow was less then 100% , and at the highest pulse rate, the solenoids would experience bounce , along with the electronic backlash of the windings in the solenoid releasing , and causing a havoc with electronics , and other system on the race car.

Now if the nitrous never goes continues ,as it did with these antique systems , then you are getting all this commotion , with less then 100% of the jet. This did not make the power of a straight jet once it was on.



Now for the new generation NX SX II d two stage Progressive system .

The Nitrous Express controller lets you decide what pulse rate you wish operate your solenoids.

Nitrous Express solenoids thru extensive R&D were found to work best at 16 cycles per second. The way this works is it divides the second up in to 16 sections , and uses a true modulated pulse width to decide how much of the 1/16 of a second the solenoid stays on. This is ramped up until the pulse width is 100% where the solenoid is no longer pulsed , and is open the total time.



Now to how this works, on the track . with a non progressive 2 stage systems you get up to two . 110 jet , or what ever the solenoids are rated at . You turn on each stage and you have 100 % of the available nitrous right now! If your truck cant take that much , then you have two choices , either take jet out , or delay turning on that stage , , the real effect is you are losing time in either choices.

In a progressive system you can ramp up using a bigger jet , or multiple solenoids , the NX SXIId can run 3 per stage , and turn it on sooner .

This in effect gives you an infinite variable staged system. This is even more useful in a traction limited street system , when one stage can be brought on and make the power match the available traction .

One other little tidbit , the variable water injections now in use pulse at 100 cycles per second. This controller will operate these system, and this is being addressed as we speak



Most people never see the difference unless you are running a data logger , and are use to looking for gains of a few hundredth of a second . remember if you look for every hundredth of a second this adds up . heck in comp everyone went to the very expensive 3 speeds about 6 years ago, to gain 5 hundredths of a second. So I am sorry if people don’t get my fervent pursuit to do everything possible to gain even the smallest gain.

 

[Timbeaux38]

Most people never see the difference unless you are running a data logger , and are use to looking for gains of a few hundredth of a second . remember if you look for every hundredth of a second this adds up . heck in comp everyone went to the very expensive 3 speeds about 6 years ago, to gain 5 hundredths of a second. So I am sorry if people don’t get my fervent pursuit to do everything possible to gain even the smallest gain.

You said earlier that you already have the power and the speed to basically tie your record up for a while so why would you worry about hundredths of a second? The answer is you are not, you are here shamelesly plugging a non-vendor, and even offering group buys :-laf This thread for you is not so much to inform members about nitrous, as it is to kiss the posteriors of your buddies at NX. Did they give you your "special" prices for getting them free ad space here? I have an ideaL that says they did :-laf

 

[Timbeaux38]

Btw

For those of you that are tired of the "old and worn out technology" in most companies purge systems, there is a new way of purging the system, that is far superior to any other purge system on the market, it has been shown to be on the "ragged edge" of performance or whatever and has been shown shave nanoseconds off of some comp cars



See the newest HP making purge technology here



:-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

After reading alot of this thread, and skipping alot of the useless posts, one thing seems very clear most members on here don't like COMP.



One thing that most people in the Nitrous industry no that NX is one of the companies that is always coming up with cutting edge technology in the GAS industry. They may potentially bring alot to the table and they may not. I would like to see Mike Woods come on here and show the market that he cares as much as Dennis has.



Dennis/TS kit has kind of proven itself in the market and I feel that if NX wants in the market they need to get on here, because there kit sounds very interesting.



What do the rest of you think Mike Woods/NX vs. Dennis Perry/TS. :-{}

 

[TJSHOTROD]

I don't see why every one hates Comp, I happen to like must of his input. Are you guy's jealous of what he can do or has done. Yes I know you will say well if I had money, well who's faults is that. The guy know's his stuff, he does have the fastest truck to date. Other people talk about there sponsor why can't Comp. Sorry back to nitrous which is why I was reading this thread to start with.



TJ

 

[JLackman]

You said earlier that you already have the power and the speed to basically tie your record up for a while so why would you worry about hundredths of a second? The answer is you are not, you are here shamelesly plugging a non-vendor, and even offering group buys :-laf This thread for you is not so much to inform members about nitrous, as it is to kiss the posteriors of your buddies at NX. Did they give you your "special" prices for getting them free ad space here? I have an ideaL that says they did :-laf

How about abiding by the forum rules?

The main forum will remain titled, "Competition Forum," and it has been made a "TDR Members Only" forum.



The purpose of this main forum is: THE place for discussion on diesel drag racing, sled pulls, tricks, tips and techniques.



This forum is for the discussion of technical aspects of diesels in competition (drag racing, sled pulling, etc) and the events relating to them. It is not a place for antagonism, baiting, bantering, ribbing, disagreements, etc. If you make a post of that nature, it will be deleted.

That kind of personal attack is not even fit for the banter forum;

The new forum will be titled, "Competition - Banter," and it will be made a "TDR Members Only" forum as well.



This forum will be tagged: WARNING - DO NOT enter this forum if you do not wish to read potentially heated discussions. This will be a TEST to provide those with highly-competitive natures to engage in more competitive exchanges with others of like mind.



The rules: DO NOT post personal attacks. While the rules are more lenient in this forum, the rules will be STRICTLY ENFORCED. Violations will be deleted when we see them.



DO NOT, and I repeat DO NOT post PERSONAL attacks or assaults. DO NOT, and I repeat DO NOT post vulgar or sexually explicit material. You say you want a place to talk competitively, then prove it. Keep it on the track and in the garage/shop.

The schoolyard bully talk that goes on and on and on here is pathetic.

 

[JLackman]

So the non progressive system stages are either 0% flow or 100% flow with the flow amount limited by the jet.



The progressive system stages are 0% flow to 100% flow with the 100% flow rate set by the jet and everything in between 0% and 100% set by pulse width.



If the ramp rate is fast enough the progressive system seems to offer more tunability, it looks like you could run a bigger jet with a progressive system and and cover a wider flow range per stage than with a non progressive - specifically because you could throttle the stage down to what ever lesser flow you wanted by programming a shorter pulse width.



How fast can a progressive system controller ramp the stages from 0% flow to 100%?

 

[Amish Elegance]

Lackman, You should see the free sites. This is the competition forum, we're all competitive, and if you read here you're gonna see some smack thrown around.



"DO NOT enter this forum if you do not wish to read potentially heated discussions. "



If ya cant take the heat... .



Many people would think higher of Comp if he'd present his ideas differently. He's got a history of rubbing some the wrong way around here. More the presentation than the ideas. Fact of TDR. Controversy follows that guy all over this site. Sky is blue, Grass is green, Comp angers people.



The Topic at hand...



Both the progressive and staged approach make sense... to me anyway. I think a progressive system may keep the tires under a 2wd car better than a staged system. On a 4wd truck, that isnt as much of an issue as every tire is putting power down, and the more abrupt application can be harnessed more effectively.



But then there's Jeff's truck... he doesn't seem to have too much trouble getting that "abruptly" staged power to the ground through two wheels. At least as far as I could tell. (I was to busy watching the flames out the stacks )



What about we see what happens on the track this season. The TS system has been proven on many fast trucks and Dennis knows his stuff. NX, not in the diesel world, yet. Here is an opportunity for em. Comp, get that motor in ya truck and show us what all that progressive foo-doo-jiggery can do make a truck go strait down d' track.



Stefan, I agree with your invite/callout to Mike Woods. The fastest guys with the big C are all here. If NX wants to go diesel racin' come on out and answer a few questions. If he plays nice, we will too.

 

[COMP461]

So the non progressive system stages are either 0% flow or 100% flow with the flow amount limited by the jet.



The progressive system stages are 0% flow to 100% flow with the 100% flow rate set by the jet and everything in between 0% and 100% set by pulse width.



If the ramp rate is fast enough the progressive system seems to offer more tunability, it looks like you could run a bigger jet with a progressive system and and cover a wider flow range per stage than with a non progressive - specifically because you could throttle the stage down to what ever lesser flow you wanted by programming a shorter pulse width.



How fast can a progressive system controller ramp the stages from 0% flow to 100%?

you are dead on , and understand , the minimum is . 010 you can ramp it up in . 010 increments

 

[COMP461]

.







NX, not in the diesel world, yet. Here is an opportunity for em. Comp, get that motor in ya truck and show us what all that progressive foo-doo-jiggery can do make a truck go strait down d' track.

NX produces more nitrous kits for diesels then all the rest combined. You just don’t realize it , but it’s a fact

 

[JLackman]

Lackman, You should see the free sites. This is the competition forum, we're all competitive, and if you read here you're gonna see some smack thrown around.



"DO NOT enter this forum if you do not wish to read potentially heated discussions. "



If ya cant take the heat... .



Many people would think higher of Comp if he'd present his ideas differently. He's got a history of rubbing some the wrong way around here. More the presentation than the ideas. Fact of TDR. Controversy follows that guy all over this site. Sky is blue, Grass is green, Comp angers people.

Elegance, I have been in heated discussions on speedtalk and other free boards that did not decend into angry personal attacks and name calling. There is a difference between "heat" in a discussion that is coherent and on topic, and flat out calling someone an idiot. I don't think there is ever a good reason to call someone an idiot on a board like this one. On those other boards those posts will get edited right now, and/or the thread locked. What is the point of the rules here if they are not enforced?

 

[RacinDuallie]

Nothing for nothing and no offense to the system that TS markets, BUT, NX does in fact make some of the most user friendly and power producing Nitrous systems available today.

And having spoken personally to Mike Woods @NX and using their kits on a gasser car I have, the upgrade ability with their kits- I can't believe that the people here are negatively posting responces towards NX and Comp.

Is it because Comp posted pics of a NX system he is using? ?? This system sounds to me like the cats meow- 4 beefy carbon fiber solenoids, and progressive programmer, either rpm or boost signaled. Sounds like a pretty solid product in my book.

I don't care what y-all think about Comp and his keyboard prowless- but I'm calling Mike Woods again... ... ... ... ... .....

 

[RacinDuallie]

Greg, in your testing have you seen any type of delivery effect by using these new Carbon Fiber solenoids? Like pulsations upon and during delivery?

 

[COMP461]

Heck I'm still waiting to hear why a progressive controled system isn't as good as the other system.



Josh

Here is the run down on progressive VS. non progressive. In the beginning of progressive controllers, the method of choice was to progressively pulse the solenoids at a faster cyclically rate, to establish the amount of nitrous delivered.

The pulse rate at the highest and almost continuous flow was less then 100% , and at the highest pulse rate, the solenoids would experience bounce , along with the electronic backlash of the windings in the solenoid releasing , and causing a havoc with electronics , and other system on the race car.

Now if the nitrous never goes continues ,as it did with these antique systems , then you are getting all this commotion , with less then 100% of the jet. This did not make the power of a straight jet once it was on.



Now for the new generation NX SX II d two stage Progressive system .

The Nitrous Express controller lets you decide what pulse rate you wish operate your solenoids.

Nitrous Express solenoids thru extensive R&D were found to work best at 16 cycles per second. The way this works is it divides the second up in to 16 sections , and uses a true modulated pulse width to decide how much of the 1/16 of a second the solenoid stays on. This is ramped up until the pulse width is 100% where the solenoid is no longer pulsed , and is open the total time.



Now to how this works, on the track . with a non progressive 2 stage systems you get up to two . 110 jet , or what ever the solenoids are rated at . You turn on each stage and you have 100 % of the available nitrous right now! If your truck cant take that much , then you have two choices , either take jet out , or delay turning on that stage , , the real effect is you are losing time in either choices.

In a progressive system you can ramp up using a bigger jet , or multiple solenoids , the NX SXIId can run 3 per stage , and turn it on sooner .

This in effect gives you an infinite variable staged system. This is even more useful in a traction limited street system , when one stage can be brought on and make the power match the available traction .

One other little tidbit , the variable water injections now in use pulse at 100 cycles per second. This controller will operate these system, and this is being addressed as we speak



Most people never see the difference unless you are running a data logger , and are use to looking for gains of a few hundredth of a second . remember if you look for every hundredth of a second this adds up . heck in comp everyone went to the very expensive 3 speeds about 6 years ago, to gain 5 hundredths of a second. So I am sorry if people don’t get my fervent pursuit to do everything possible to gain even the smallest gain.

 

[RacinDuallie]

The more I hear of this system- the more I am liking it.

Maybe if we get more detailed expaination from Dennis who seems to be bashing NX and their kits and Greg, and then having no reasonable counter responce other than smoke and mirror replies and no justification as to why his kit is superior to NX's... ... .

Dennis for arguements sake your not holding up your end of the arguement with your baseless bashing replies... .

 

[JoshPeters]

How about abiding by the forum rules?

That's what he was referring to. If a vendor said half as much as Comp has the thread would dissappear. I've seen more usefuel things dissappear.



I also thought Group Buy stuff was supposed to be in the Products/Accessories forum.



That would be forum rules.

That kind of personal attack is not even fit for the banter forum;

Near as I can see, the personal attacks have gone both directions. If the subject at hand would have stayed the subject at hand, not the biggist best system for the "Fastist truck... " Nothing personal would have been said. The first post asked for something significantly less than what was brought up.



When you walk into a place like this, it's like walking into a Nascar pit area. Sure your a A-mod Racer back home, track champion, but to start talking smack right away is the wrong way to do things. There have been a couple people that have done that. That's where the attitude and personal attacks come from. Some people never stop, that's why they continue.

The schoolyard bully talk that goes on and on and on here is pathetic.

All we want to see is results. Video, would be good. It has been flat out said that he doesn't care about video. Which also means he doesn't care to prove that he truely is the fastist. We've asked MANY times to prove it. He throws up a time slip. Well for someone that spends as much time at the track as Comp does, it would be awefully easy to find a slip on the ground.



Now... . that being said... I look like a Comp Basher. I'm just showing you what you are asking.



For once, although I'm not a drug guy, I'm on Comps side. I think the progressive system would be a better idea, although more expensive. I think the information is great. I, like others here, Want to learn EVERYTHING we can about these trucks. WHen you have a pretty much non-existant budget, you HAVE to do it right the first time.



Josh

 

[Timbeaux38]

How about abiding by the forum rules?

Read my post again... ... . that is what I was asking

That kind of personal attack is not even fit for the banter forum;

So now pointing out the fact that somebody is here cheerleading (which if you would read the rules, is not tolerated) is a personal attack? I'm sorry if my delivery is a bit harsh, but I dont think it is fair to PAYING sponsors to have to compete with this drivel

The schoolyard bully talk that goes on and on and on here is pathetic

I never once asked for lunch money... ... don't put words in my mouth :-laf :-laf