NV4500 Gear Lube

[amsoilman]

This is for Joe Donnelly,

since there are many TDR members using the Amsoil Series 2000 75W-90 gear lube, I'm wondering why you didn't get some of that lube and do some testing with it?



Wayne

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

I did. One of the three 75-90 lubes was Amsoil 2000. I could give other details but preferred to report only what were, in my opinion, the most positive findings from the tests.

 

[Don M]

When I stopped in Standard Trans to pick up my rebuilt transmission yesterday they were very much for using Syntorq.

Standard has tried every kind of oil in these transmissions and they have gone back to Syntorq.



They have seen as much as 125 degree temperature with Syntorq compared to other synthetics. They even tried engine oil.



Syntorq won hands down.



Don~

 

[Sled Puller]

. From Standard transmission:



"The reason that we recommend the Syntorq is that the oil was developed specifically for that unit. It is a super low temp oil. It seems that it keeps the gear temps lower than any other oil we've tried.

Granted, we haven't tried many, but this stuff works & we don't feel the need to gamble the price of a transmission to prove that something else will. I'll let the guys with engineering R&D time worry about the finer points of the oil. "









Seems they HAVEN'T tried EVERY oil !



Nor do I expect them to. I have no problems with what they recommend, but I HAVE gambled the price of my transmision and won! I found a better lube at a better price with a better warranty.



Gene

 

[Don M]

I should not have said they (standard trans) tried every oil. I stretched a bit. Syntorq is the coolest running oil that Standard has tried. I do not know if they have tried amsoil.



In your own words you gambled... personally I do not want to gamble my time.

I do feel that amsoil will stand behind the product. I just cant see the big deal of using it over the Syntorq. Syntorq cost me 54 dollars and I will change it every 50,000 miles. Roughly once a year for me.



If the amsoil was free of charge, it still would not be worth it to me. If I had a transmission problem and the dealer or in my case Standard Trans did not hold up the warranty and tried to blame it on the oil I would have to turn to amsoil for relief. This is going to cost me time, phone calls, and general aggravation. Further, I have no guarantee in writting from amsoil that the transmission would be covered if the amsoil failed.



The manufacturer only states a certain brand in a few cases. Dodge and NV say to use Syntorq. In an event of a failure do I go to them and say "well , guys I think I know more than you and I use amsoil, it is the best stuff around" will they buy that line? I do not think so.



Joe Donnelly tested the Syntorq and the oil temperature was the lowest of all the oils tested and had the least amount of HP drag. amsoil was included in this test.



BTW, I do use amsoil for my motor oil and rear axle lube, but the manufacturer has not given me a brand name in this case.



Don~

 

[Sled Puller]

Don,

"Gambled" was Standards word, I used it. Bad choice, no doubt.



Standards warranty is 12 months/12,000 miles.



Dodge is at the most, 100,000 miles.



New Venture has no warranty.



After your mileage is up, who covers an oil related breakdown? The oil company, thats who.





Amsoil does have a written warranty, in a nutshell, if you EVER have an oil related breakdown, they will cover it. No mileage limits.



Get Castrol to write that one down.



Don't get me started on Joe's "TESTS"!!!!!!!



Gene

 

[Hammer]

Amsoil or Syntorq????

AH YES,,The dead horse LIVES ON AGAIN!!!!,,Only thing here I'll say is this,,To those who use Amsoil's gear lube ,understands its quality and its ability to protect our NV's, No explanation is needed,,For those who continuously are BRAINWASHED by DC and believe that the lube they use is the ONLY one capable to protect their NV's,No explanation will be given,,I guess if you believe that the OVERPRICED Castrol is all that one may use in their NV's,the next thing your going to tell me is their is no problems with dowel pins because DC says not,,Oh to those who made the quote about "no oil or gear lubes specified for motors or rears" I guess that tells us all where your allegiance lies,,Too much DC insituted brainwashing here for me,,Only one answer in gear lubes PERIOD..... AMSOIL. . No pyramid schemes, no BS,Just the plain old best synthetic oils and lubes for the money available today,BOTTOM LINE!!,,MGM don't let them ruffle the feathers,if they don't understand there is no way to educate them,,Too much tunnel vision... ...

 

[Don M]

hammer,





It's funny how my brainwashed, tunnel vision, overpriced Syntorq buying self managed to buy amsoil for the engine and rear axle.



I end up buying my amsoil from the on-line store when I do buy it, so I can keep from listening to more "amsoil is the best" brainwashing from the sales guys or having the features and benefits of "our new series 3000 oils" cramed down my throat.

I understand the benifits of the engine oil and axle lube for my truck, just not the gear lube for the trans. It (amsoil) is a one size fits all fluid. The Syntorq was designed for the NV4500 transmission specifically.



API?, AMWAY?, COMMENTS?



Contructive ones please.



Don~

 

[Sled Puller]

Here is a news flash!



I have a comment!



Can someone show me where the Syntorq was designed JUST for this trans?



I would bet it was around before, and renumbered when they won the LOW bid to Chrysler!



You would think that if they were serious about getting a synthetic for this trans to make it last, they would have contacted

Amsoil about it. Or Mobil. Or Royal Purple Or Red Line. Seems a lot of people tend to "forget" Amsoil, now that everybody has a synthetic, (useing that term quite loosely here)





Another members wife commented once if Amsoil was so good, Wal-Mart would sell it! I then asked her where she purchased her oil, knowing full well that they used a high priced specialty petroleum oil, that is not sold in chain stores!

She would not comment.



FUNNY!



Who cares where you buy it, or how it is sold, as long as you are getting the best product you want at the best price?

Gene

 

[Don M]

MGM,



I read the amsoil warranty and feel like amsoil would have ample room to wiggle on any warranty claim I would make with them.





Lets say my trans. grenades after 5000 miles with Syntorq in it. I can pull the trans and head up to Standard and get her fixed up if I use the Syntorq no questions will be asked and away I go.



If I use the snakeoil, ooops! I mean amsoil, I get to go through the hassle of trying to make a claim with the corporate office in Wisconsin.

First, they ask you to send in the oil sample and you, (the customer) get to pay a 15 dollar fee for them to test the oil.

Second, you get to send in the defective parts that were damaged by the oil for them to determine the oil was at fault.

amsoil may or may not agree to pay for anything. Of course I have to wait for Standard to tear the trans down so that I can send the damaged parts up for "professional inspection" ( I too use some words loosely).

This could potentially take several weeks, maybe longer. All awile I am out the big dollars to either: have it rebuilt and pay myself or await the check in the mail that may never come.

All of this to save 20 to 30 dollars on amsoil as opposed to Syntorq.



Further, amsoil has a disclaimer in their warranty that removes them from liability if the vehicle has been abused or raced.

Abuse could be determined as bombing the engine , in many cases here on the TDR, double the HP levels.

So, really the amsoil warranty is only for the guys with stock trucks anyway.



Don~

 

[Sled Puller]

Interesting interpretation.



If you have a failure under 12,000 and Standard tried to blame it on different oil, shame on them!!



I am more concerned with long term wear protection than a 12,000 mile warranty.



When Doug at Enterprise Engine rebuilt mine I asked about their warranty.



Basically he said,

We know what you are doing with it, (BOMBing, sled pulling), and we also know what breaks. If it fails, we tear it down, if it was my mistake, I fix it, if it is twisted in half, you pay for it.



There is no mysterys inside of these things.

Gene

 

[Don M]

On these last points, we agree.



Don~

 

[Hammer]

So Don,Tell us how ya really feel!!!!

What I do not understand here is really quite simple,,IF you have SO much problem with their product then WHY use it in your truck at all????,,Also,the Castrol lube you so highly tout is used in more application than JUST the NV4500 so i'd love to see where you got the info that its a "specfic" lube only designed for the NV,,As far as the rest well its like this,if you feel and really believe that Syntorq is the only lube then by gosh use it,no one here is going to stop you,,I have used Amsoil's products in all my vechicles because of their ability protect under any condition I have put them thru,,I use them in my personal vechicles and both of my race cars(drag car and sprint car)and have seen their benefits over and over again,,So,with the signature you show answer this for me,IF all the parts you list at the bottom,and by no means am I questioning it, are on your truck and its OBVIOUSLY more than stock,WHY would you want to use a lube thats designed for a STOCK rated truck?????,,Wouldn't you want a lube that already proven to protect and handle what you have and is doing the very thing ALREADY in your truck??,,See I have seen the benefits in teardowns for maintence with it and have seen dramatic differences over other "snakeoils" in high HP applications,,TESTS,you say,I say test this,,ANY ONE(no disrespect here Joe D) can make a gauge,instrument or printout sat what it wants,my test grounds are real battlegrounds,,From a little stock Durango and my Ram,too the race cars I'm involved with its all the same answer,AMSOIL,,It has nothing to do with schemes,pyramids or marketing stratagies,just plain old fashioned seat of the pants hard work and REAL everyday tests,,Bottom line is this,its your truck do what you want,mine however will use it,NO MATTER WHAT DC SAYS,I've seen the results of high hp and torque applications of this lube and others and no others can even remotely compare to its ability to withstand heat and wear problems,,Your truck your choice,but don't tell others that have seen the difference it will not handle the job... ... .

 

[Don M]

Hammer,



In summary just for you:



First, The manufacturer and Standard Transmission has recomended to me to use a specific brand of oil.

Second, Standard Transmission has tested other oils and found them to be not up to the task, which in turn points back to Syntorq.

Third, the tests that Joe D. did show a higher HP drag from your favorite flavor of amsoil. Higher drag means higher temperature. This is fact. More drag, more heat. The drag is converted to heat energy. Think of your truck brakes, they convert forward motion to heat energy to stop the vehicle. amsoil converts more forward motion or actually torque to heat energy than does Syntorq.

Fourth, amsoil (75-90) only has viscosity index of 146 compared to Syntorq of 167. Viscosity Index is the oils ability to resist thickening in cold temperature and thinning in high temperature. It is shown in the respective data sheets that the VI of amsoil is inferior to the Syntorq by over 20 point numbers. The NV4500 is splash lubricated. amsoil is not as close in rheological terms to Syntorq. This basically means the oil from amsoil will not flow the same as Syntorq. With a splash lubricated transmission, rheology is more important. The facts above are from empirical testing and real world visual and ASTM testing. Replete with enough info to sway me to Syntorq. So far you and MGM have given me "its the best" kind of arguments without factual basis and one of you guys is a salesman (tetrahedron type) of such oil. hehehe!



I understand you race sprint cars and so on, this too is hardly qualifying credentials to sway my thinking from using the oil that Standard Transmission has had the best luck with. I can say that Standard has rebuilt over 500 NV4500 transmissions with their fully splined mainshaft alone. Who knows how many before that. Thousands would be close. They have seen other oils damage internal parts first hand. It would be safe to say they see them all the time. Unlke you, who has seen maybe a few, and I venture to guess, never rebuilt a single NV4500.



Can you show me real world data that shows amsoil will protect better than Syntorq in a NV4500? No. you cant!



Let us close with talking about the fact that the manufacturer is recommending a particular oil by brand. They go so far as to say the transmission warranty will be VOID if you use another brand. Do you think the engineers and developers of the NV4500 trans just pulled the requirement for the oil outta' their tail end? Of course not. They did real world testing to get the best combination for that transmission. They came up with a specification and put it out for bid and recommendation. Castrol was awarded the bid for whatever reasons. The specification is still being met ,so who cares if the oil was low bidder or not. I'm not happy about the fact that Castrol won any more than you are Hammer.



Yes, my truck has modifications and many of us do... of course amsoil will not warranty your transmission if they know you have it modified anyway. Read amsoil's warranty and see for yourself.









amsoil warranty

Finally, I am open to all suggestion and evidence to help me change my open mind even after the name calling and personal attacks as you have done in this thread









Don~

 

[Sled Puller]

First of all, whatever Amsoil pays the moron in charge of their website it is too much.



The CORRECT VI of Series 2000 75W-90 is 178. One Hundred Seventy Eight.

So that trashes one whole paragraph! And actually slants it quite well in Amsoil's favor, thanks Don!





Joe Donnelly Tests are unscientific at BEST, and always conclude with the way he wants his article to go. (No offense Joe!)

His hp drag tests are so close between ALL the oils it was hardly worth printing!! Do it again Joe with some miles on the oil!





Don,

I see you are back to"Standard has tested ALL these oils!" When I clearly debunked that earlier, with a letter FROM Standard.



If Standard was so great, they would have a bit bigger warranty than 12,000 miles, don't you think? Shows me they have no faith in something.

Some guys will put that on in 2 months, and then own their Castrol baby all over again.



I can show you my synchros VS a Castrol synchro, it will shock you.



So much more to say, so little time!



Gene

 

[Sled Puller]

BTW Don,

Cummins has stated quite clearly they do NOT recommend K&N Air filters!

Following your rule... ... .....

 

[Don M]

An Amsoil webmaster makes a single typo on a data sheet and is now a moron? At this point in the banter I dont know who to believe; you or Amsoil's website data sheet.



Yes, if the VI of Amsoil is 178 it does slant it in Amsoil's favor. I agree with ya there.

Please re-read the Standard Transmission lines I typed, it clearly reads "tested other oils" not Amsoil.

I will say the same thing to you as I said to Hammer; a handful a syncronizers from different transmissions means notta to me, just like the "I race cars" absurdity I read earlier. Its not empirical data and will not will hold water.



I agree the warranty from Standard Transmission is not long enough. Your point is well taken.



Just out of curiosity, how do you guys keep a straight face when you tell people "Amsoil will warrant your transmission if it has an oil related failure" when you know that Amsoil can deny any claim for enhanced HP levels and many of us have such enhancements?

I would think about dropping that sales pitch before someone suggests you guys go back to integrity school.



DC says that the NV4500's main reason for failure is from using the wrong oil. More failures than the 5th gear problem and I have had the 5th gear failure twice in 200,000 miles. This is more evidence on how important the use of Syntorq is. You gotta wonder why DC, GM, and Standard Trans all recommend Syntorq dont you?



As I wrote earlier, I am not against entertaining "real world" evidence that Amsoil will outperform Syntorq in the NV4500.



The K&N filter is a personal "gamble" if you will. The Silicon levels are always well below the average. Usually around 2 or 3.

Once again, I looked for real world evidence through tests from Blackstone to check the operaton of the filter.





Finally, I must ask if you are a Tribologist or what qualification you have to make all these claims of VI and so on?



Don~

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

>>Joe Donnelly Tests are unscientific at BEST, and always conclude with the way he wants his article to go. (No offense Joe!)

His hp drag tests are so close between ALL the oils it was hardly worth printing!!<<



I have a Ph. D. in Chemistry and 20 years of experience in experimental design. Lawrence Bolton, who ran the dyno, probably is as knowledgeable as anyone on dynos. I talked to a manager at Dynojet befre Lawrence and I had ever worked together and he had nothin but praise for Lawrence's knowledge and ability with dynos. Closeless of numbers is not an issue if the differences are consistent and the % difference is significant. See your local statistician.

It's hard NOT to take offense at your slur that I fudge tests to get the conclusions that I "want. " I think I have far more experience at conducting impartial scientific tests and assessing data than you do, Gene.



Since I don't have stock in any oil company and am not an oil distributor like you are, I feel I have less vested interest in a certain brand than you do, Gene. OTOH, I did not tell everything I found because I did not want to rile anyone who has a predisposition to a certain brand with any semi-quantitative data. I really don't care what lubricants you or anyone else on the list uses. It's your trucks. If you don't agree with my findings, that's fine. I try to present them with only the level of reliability I feel they have, and I did not try to say that hp drag tests were the only valid test series, nor the only necessary test series to be run.

 

[Sled Puller]

Due to unforseen attacks on the US, I'm letting this go til a later date.



Gene

 

['956Wheel]

I am currently in the prototype stages of a high volume machine to keep up with the unforseen demand of SNAKEOIL and am confidant that there will not be a supply problem as the machine really SUCKS! The oil will be marketed under the name of Ham-Soiled and will be marketed in the format of a sort of roundish, square pyramid. Sold only to those who have done research that is absolutly useless and tend to take a likeing to SPAM!



If an individual must resort to scare tactics to sell a product, then switch to cost and then to bogus , or at least questionable, "tests" I consider it a less than desirable product. Kind of like if you tell a story stick to it don't waffle and back-paddle. A salesman is a different animal, to be good you must believe in your product good or bad, if I want stories and ever changing tactics I will simply find a 5 year old to play Monopoly or any board game with... the rules change as you go.



Do what works for you fellas, don't try selling me by Bull$hitting or telling unprovable tales.



There are more than enough "charlatans" on this site to fill a stadium. Respect one anothers knowledge and don't try to pretend to know what you don't. I have been a machinist for 26+ years but I can't tell you how to do open heart surgery!