Competition Omg!!!!! Twins Rock!!!!!!!!!!

[Diesel Freak]

Originally posted by Briar Hopper

I did find it to be annoying that you so loudly trumpeted several trade secrets on this thread. I'm probably the only one here who would say so, though.

well, once my setup is done, all the specs will be posted!

 

[StakeMan]

2 thumbs up to anyone who has the guts to fab thier own twin setup. It takes more guts to build them than buy them. IMO

 

[Briar Hopper]

As far as fabbing a twin setup, been there, done that. It's not easy, I agree. Yes, there is far more satisfaction in building your own. It's more satisfying to get a full pull or a low E. T. with a truck that you built yourself.

But the ultimate twin systems are just that, the ultimate, and getting there on your own can take far more time and $$$ than a lot of us can afford. To that end, sometimes it's better to buy your HP.

We all bought fueling boxes and injectors without trying to build our own, didn't we?

Any engineers out there, do you feel like taking apart a PowerEdge Comp or a BlueChip box to see what the circuitry is like, then posting the schematics on here so we can copy them?

The details that go into a twin turbo system, and the modifications to the truck, were arrived at the same way the fueling boxes were. Research & development. Undercut that, and pretty soon there are no new products coming out... .

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

Originally posted by Briar Hopper

[

The details that go into a twin turbo system, and the modifications to the truck, were arrived at the same way the fueling boxes were. Research & development. Undercut that, and pretty soon there are no new products coming out... . [/B]

I think we all know that new products will always come out. I'm sure too that soon enough there will be adds for twins in the TDR

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Stakeman, DF,

Thanks for the continued support. if you have any questions about anything other than drive pressure let me know. I'll post what I know about drive pressure after I have collected some data.



Jim,

IMHO injectors on a 24V are not a package deal unless you lack the supporting parts to use them. I know from the FP readings and the ETs that the injectors I bought to replace the Mitchell injectors flow more and make more power.



Please don't assume that because I know of a twin setup that I copied it. It just happens that the HT3B is a very good size match. I got the info on it from several sources.



My decision to buid THIS setup was based on a cost vs benefit study. I had a B1 that would have made a better secondary but I had no luck locating a relatively inexpensive primary to fit it. I also would have been building a setup that HVAC had the angle on. Nowell has earen that niche. I also did not want a setup with a $1700 secondary.



I decided on the 35/12 because I have one and so does almost every other 24V owner. Making that turbo work is important to being able interest LOTS of buyers. Though my primary focus was performance I like a few extra dollars like anyone else. I figured my hobby might make me some money for a change.



So far everyone who has seen this setup is thoroughly impressed.

 

[TxDieselKid]

well let's call a spade a spade.....

With EE having so many different models of twins, and Nowel playing with them in Cali, the guy who fabs up the pipes will be called a copycat no matter if they ment to copy a system or not. That sucks, but that's life.



Mark,

Are you still planning on being at the dyno day next week?



Andrew

 

[Briar Hopper]

Originally posted by Mark_Kendrick

Though my primary focus was performance I like a few extra dollars like anyone else. I figured my hobby might make me some money for a change.



So far everyone who has seen this setup is thoroughly impressed. [/B]

So why tell everyone exactly which turbos you're using? That will decrease your sales to some extent.

Has Kurt ever told any of us exactly which turbos go into the making of a B1 ? Anybody ever attack him in the forums, or make disparaging comments against him for keeping the key components of that turbo a secret?

The issue here, is not about "copying" , but rather, maintaining profits to pay for research & development. Lost sales=less money= less research=less products.

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

Originally posted by Briar Hopper

So why tell everyone exactly which turbos you're using? That will decrease your sales to some extent.

Has Kurt ever told any of us exactly which turbos go into the making of a B1 ? Anybody ever attack him in the forums, or make disparaging comments against him for keeping the key components of that turbo a secret?

The issue here, is not about "copying" , but rather, maintaining profits to pay for research & development. Lost sales=less money= less research=less products.

I thought this is what the TDR is all about?

 

[Briar Hopper]

Evidently, that's what it's become. That is one reason we don't see very many vendors on here anymore. Is that your way of saying it's okay to post any trade secrets that anyone happens to obtain? Even if it is damaging to a vendor or individual? No problem then! Coming soon : How to build your own ATS !

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

why would I want to build my own ATS?????????? I think most of the vendors quit coming because of the hammering they got. Not because we knew how much line pressure they used or how much clutch material they used for lockup. Am I right here Briar? How about how many Clutches they use for third? Then there is that groove that Some guy up north does to the turbo for Oil. Hmmmmmm? What other trade secrets are out there? Maybe the

Sliding of the Plate? Or the grinding of it. Oh yea, I almost forgot about that $250 pusher pump set up that I put together at the local Napa for about $100. I would watch what you say on here too. You are a vendor right? What is your contrubution? I have witnessed you flaming other vendors in the past... ... ... . Something to do with trannys... ... ... ... .

 

[Blackdog]

This is the reason I hate to even get on here anymore, here Briar who is probly one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet and is willing to help no matter what, tries to stand up for people who have had huge amounts of R&D and he gets asked what his contributions are and that he starts flaming wars himself??. I dont think so, before you speak out on here about other peoples products and basically saying that they suck, the best thing for you to do is come watch what it's really all about b/c you obviously don't have any idea of what Dave M and the whole crew up there are all about. Plain and simple "the most down to earth, and nicest people you will ever meet let alone what their products do"

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

Originally posted by Blackdog

before you speak out on here about other peoples products and basically saying that they suck. "

I never said anything about sucking. And I have never ever said anything bad about Briar. He may be the greatest guy ever. I just don't see what is so bad about what Mark has done that he needs to be reamed so hard for talking about what turbos he is using. I knew before he ever posted that alot of the guys were using those turbos.

 

[Blackdog]

Sorry for the confusion, I was quoting Mark when he said that Mitchell's injectors sucked and I never meant you was slamming Briar it's just that he has contributed more than alot of people realize I guess.

 

[Johnboy3]

Telling what turbos you use in your twin turbo setup won't lose you any sales. 95% of the folks who have twins now don't have the skills, equipment, or desire to build a set of twins from scratch. It really is a tough job, more like a pain in the ass the first time. No one is not going to buy a set of Mitchell twins just because they know what two turbos they are using. The folks that want or are able to make their own will anyhow. The finished product is what people want, not a some sort of assembly required project.



I applaud Mark for building his own set. I also applaud him for sharing every last detail of the installation. Perhaps a few folks will build their own sets, but most likely these are people that wouldn't buy an established set anyhow. What I'm sure of is that his work and postings will do, is stir more excitement about twins and sell a few more setup for the vendors.



The trade secret stuff kills me. The only people the vendors have to keep things from is each other. I also research every last detail of any modification that I'm going to make or buy, and then decide wether it's something I can possibly build myself or if it's beyond my skills or not worth my time to mess with for the price. We all know every last component that is used in a Dodge truck, but are folks running out and building their own from scratch? We have all the part numbers, sources to get the stuff, and lots of trucks to copy off of, why not? Because most people would just assume buy a finished product proven to work and enjoy it right from the get go. Same for injectors, fueling boxes, transmissions, and even twin setups. There are several very reputable vendors with excellant customer service that need not worry about what someone might home engineer in the garage. Although, I'm sure they already know that.

 

[kaffine krazed]

Briar Hopper: What trade secrets is he giving out?

 

[Arcticat]

Originally posted by Briar Hopper

But the ultimate twin systems are just that, the ultimate, and getting there on your own can take far more time and $$$ than a lot of us can afford. To that end, sometimes it's better to buy your HP.

Excellent point, Tom, I couldn't agree more. That's what our economy is based on - I do work for people who can't do what I do for the price I do it for, and I buy products from people who can make and sell them for less than I can. And that's exactly why I'm sure EE and Nowell won't lose a single sale for the sake of someone figuring out how to do it themselves based on piecing together bits of info here and there from the TDR forums.



The nature of the market is that new products are quickly plagiarized and in many cases improved upon. If EE is the only place that anyone can morally buy a set of twins does that mean that DTT should be the only place you can buy an race-capable transmission? You can't deny they were the first to make a viable hi-po product. Should we be forced to only buy TST fueling boxes because they were the first to come out with one? Are Blue Chip and Edge guilty of copying the idea of a fueling box? Should Bully Dog, etc be banned from selling extrude honed injectors because DD was there first? I would bet DD spent alot more money on developing injectors than the others had to when they jumped on the idea. Point being, any company that is not prepared for competition and staying one step ahead of it will not be the most successfull out there. Peace out.

 

[Diesel Freak]

Originally posted by Johnboy3

Telling what turbos you use in your twin turbo setup won't lose you any sales. 95% of the folks who have twins now don't have the skills, equipment, or desire to build a set of twins from scratch. It really is a tough job, more like a pain in the ass the first time. No one is not going to buy a set of Mitchell twins just because they know what two turbos they are using. The folks that want or are able to make their own will anyhow. The finished product is what people want, not a some sort of assembly required project.

Very true. Now that I see what mark has done I may change my current plan of attack a bit. I am still planning on using the HY as a primary, but the H2 is starting to seem a bit on the small side... . even at 450 HP.



30 psi of drive pressure with 45-50 psi of boost is a little unrealistic with a H2 as a seccondary... I need something bigger.

 

[Briar Hopper]

Arcticat, interesting points you made. That does make sense. Yes, the good ones will be one step ahead, always. Absolutely nothing wrong with competition. But it does get hard to stay ahead at times, when you are the innovator, like Diesel Dynamics, and others are "plagiarizing", then undercutting you. This is why we have copyright and patent laws.....

No slam and nothing personal against Kendrick. I have my views on the matter, and he has his. I hope he succeeds, people with his level of drive and mechanical ability are to be commended for their accomplishments. One more time, just to make sure I'm understood . I never thought, nor did I accuse, Kendrick of "copying" anything. I did object to his harsh comments about Enterprise Engine products. I would get just as irritated if someone said that about Diesel Dynamics' products, and I've never met the guys!

Blackdog, thank you for the kind words.

"Why would I want to build my own ATS ? " To bypass the middleman, get it done cheaper, of course. ANYTHING you do yourself is always cheaper. Like do-it-yourself twins.

Of course I've done my share of slamming in the past, when it was well and truly deserved, when I got screwed, or when a friend did. Nobody likes scams, least of all me.

But slamming other trannies? No. I've had some snide comments, a little ankle-biting I'm guilty of, about the blown DTT at Maryland. But you'll never , ever get me to bad-mouth a DTT or a BD transmission. I have friends that are hammering on both, and they work.

 

[Diesel Freak]

Originally posted by Briar Hopper

This is why we have copyright and patent laws.....

The bad thing about applying for a Patent... . the application is now available to the public to read, and it outlined EXACTLY what you did... then all someone has to do is change it a little bit, and... I think you can fill in the rest!



believe me, it is easier just to get the Pattent application than it is to R. E. the component.

 

[Todd G]

I joined the TDR to learn more about these awesome trucks we drive. Over the years I have saved thousands in repairs and modifications to my vehicle. If I hadn't found this site, I probably would have Dr. P's stuff on my engine. I did put a lot of Banks stuff on my truck because I thought they were the only place that hot-rodded diesels, but that was in 1996 before the TDR was around.



Back to the subject, I use the TDR to SAVE money to a point. I now know that a BHAF is cheaper and better than a K&N, that a Piers injection pump is WAY better than Dr. P's, etc. I know that I could get out the grinder and make a 0 plate but I prefer to buy one from a vendor. I know I could probably weld up a set of twins if I had exact instructions but I probably wouldn't. Who has the time? I might buy a twin assembly kit that includes everything but the turbo's. Let me go out and find the best deal on them. Put everything else in kit form and save me some money.



I do respect all the vendors out there and the awesome job they've done. Keep up the good work and I'll support you, but throw us a bone every once in a while.