Competition P-Pumped 3rd gen

[Ol'TrailDog]

I thought the whole purpose of creating this new forum was so those with spittle flecked lips and bloodied finger tips could spray smack whilst waiting for the track to dry up.



stocker

 

[Amish Elegance]

There is no denying the superiority of P pump fueling at high rpms... . for now.

This whole thread sounds like the carburetor vs FI articles I read as a kid. :-laf



I think they're gonna be a few heads turned in the next couple years when we get some proven hot CR pumps and stand alone computers out there. Think about it... Infinite timing, pulse, duration, and pressure settings right at the tip of your fingers. The only thing missing right now is volume. Tune it all on a PC without even gettin your hands dirty. ( I'm all for #2 on my hands, but the idea of that is just plain cool!)



Think about it...

Create multiple injection events, (or delete the useless ones you 600 guys )

You could map the fuel for an entire pull or pass exactly as you want it.

Tune fuel curves to light your chargers when you want.

Adjust timing to run cooler if ya got too hot last run.

Smoked out the beams in time trials, clean it up for qualifying.

Street, strip or track, you have more control than you ever had before.

The tunability of a set up like that cant be beat if the volume of a P pump is available up tall.



All you old school guys could even put a lope in the fuel curve so you sound like a P pump bouncin the gov when yer spoolin up. :-laf (I know, it makes me horny too. )



We got a long way to go, but you'll know we got there when some kid posts on here how he CR'd a 12v so he could tune it on his laptop. :-laf

 

[JFaulkner]

I'd like to see a p-pumped 3rd gen as a drag truck. More speed between shifts, no stupid speedlimiter.

 

[TxDieselKid]

and what dose that have to do with drag racing , in the pro street class , the Duramax's are coming on strong , and are the same as a Cummins CR

The Duramaxes also have a stand-alone computer to control their engines. Is there one for public purchase for the Cummins? Want to talk about that software Comp?



When there is a stand-alone for the Cummins that the public can buy you will see some REAL progress made. Till then it's all p-pump.

 

[blkdragon]

Soory if this sounds stupid, but I am a 12valve guy who never reads any of the posts about fuel pumps that aren't mechanical. I have recently just become very interested in it so if you don't mind explaining a few things that would be great.

What is a stand alone computer?

Also the talk about the CP pump and CR pump? What is the differences and are thy avaliable on what?

Thanks and sorry for the novice questions.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

What is a stand alone computer?

Also the talk about the CP pump and CR pump? What is the differences and are thy avaliable on what?

Basically...

Stand alone computer = rip out the OEM ECM and install a TOTALLY aftermarket ECM. This type of ECM allows you to custom tailor nearly every operational parameter of the engine. Most people use them for performance, but the flipside is that you can detune the heck out of a diesel for economy and not worry about running too lean like with a gasser (*hint, hint* !!). These are not at all new for gassers (They have (in no particular order): Motec, Accel DFI, Haltech, Fel-Pro, etc. )).



The CP pump = Bosch "CP 3" high pressure fuel pump. This is the pump that supplies the very high pressure (upwards of 30,000psi) fuel to the 'rail' - or common rail ('CR'). Lots of folks envision the CP 3 as being the limiting factor since it was only designed with OEM applications in mind. So far, it is a big limiting factor, but we're still able to make a lot of power with it in OEM form and still have it be very reliable.



Mechanical or electronic - pick your poison... they both taste great in my book. It just so happens that I can only afford to play with mechanical stuff for now. If you make a mistake with an electronically controlled engine, the liklihood of it being an expensive mistake is fairly well established.



Matt

 

[TxDieselKid]

There are even some Stand-alones that let you use your stock ECM now days, and even the stock programming for chevys.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Stand alone computer = rip out the OEM ECM and install a TOTALLY aftermarket ECM. This type of ECM allows you to custom tailor nearly every operational parameter of the engine. Most people use them for performance, but the flipside is that you can detune the heck out of a diesel for economy and not worry about running too lean like with a gasser (*hint, hint* !!). These are not at all new for gassers (They have (in no particular order): Motec, Accel DFI, Haltech, Fel-Pro, etc. )).



You want to see what a FAST setup will do for a Small Block Ford... ..... Owner/Driver Tim Lynch..... engine builder Steve Petty... . just some Georgia boys.



http://content.godragracing.com/vids/lynchetown.wmv



Jim

 

[sbentz]

Hmmm... stand alone computer... . Common rail, variable timing... .



Wonder who will have one out in a tube car this year????



That would be a leading EDGE deal, one BULLY DOG of a product, might put some put some money in the BANKs for the one that does it.



Or some simple red neck back yard Cummins geek. With some help from ATS of course... . time will tell.



P-Pumps rule. For now.

 

[Sled Puller]

There is no reason you can't have mechanical adjustable timing on a P-pump. Deutz has been doing it for years.

 

[COMP461]

Dirt draggers living in the past, I have one of those 50 lbs centrifugal advances, off a dump truck I believe it’s good for about 20 degrees, but just like a governor, its doesn’t always do what you tell it.

The stand alone box is so tunable, and lets you plot a timing curve, at every RPM for the correct timing. Imagine a full tilt motor with big cam timing, and low compression, which will start at the turn on the switch, well that what 12 to 15 degrees of timing will get you, on start up. Then when you stab the throttle it has conservative timing, and let you run a lot bigger charger with out concerns of low end spool. Then it ramps up timing to say 45 to 50 degrees by 5000 RPM’s. Another neat deal is the ability to throw the kitchen sink at it on the starting line where the motor is accelerating at a high rev gain, and you can’ get enough cylinder pressure. The new pumps that are now being discovered for a CR or a Duramax are bigger then even the biggest billet P-Pumps ever though could be built , and they don’t take a 100 hp to turn. The future is coming, and a few people are already working on it.

 

[Sled Puller]

Yes, I agree, it sounds like a perfect world.

But electronics, like children and gasser drag racers, don't always do what you tell them to!!



How many VP-44 failures compared to P-Pump failures? Look at how weak the 44 is, the very things that should have made it awesome, contributed to its failure.



So, we are waiting for someone to do electronics right, until then, absolute max power will be P-Pump.

 

[JFaulkner]

Hey comp your making my head hurt. Hey sleddy why is it that the guy that's all about the electonics is still using a P-Pump on his "truck"? I actually use the term USING lightly because the truck would actually have to run to technically USE it. :-laf



Hey comp is this one of those new "electonic mechanical common rail stand alone" custom injection pumps?

 

[DHRA]

Gee how soon we forget!

#ad
OMG that is the most I've laughed in a while. Great catch, what a #ad

 

[JFaulkner]

#ad
OMG that is the most I've laughed in a while. Great catch, what a #ad

I've been called a smart A. . a time or two but I mean come on comp, your making this too easy. It's really hard to take someone seriously that sticks his foot in his mouth that many times.

 

[COMP461]

I have more then one motor Project , the other is not ready for out side eyes , but the computer is laying on the table next to the motor.

 

[JLackman]

Greg,



Are you qouting the #'s on Dr. Gas' dyno?

What do you mean?

 

[TxDieselKid]

What software is on the computer?

 

[fest3er]

Yes, I agree, it sounds like a perfect world.

But electronics, like children and gasser drag racers, don't always do what you tell them to!!



How many VP-44 failures compared to P-Pump failures? Look at how weak the 44 is, the very things that should have made it awesome, contributed to its failure.



So, we are waiting for someone to do electronics right, until then, absolute max power will be P-Pump.

If I'm thinking right, the VP44 is an electronically-controlled mechanical pump. It does have significant limitations, besides the electronics inside not having adequate cooling.



P-pumps and VP44s cannot produce the pressure and they don't have the flexibility needed to maximize the power possible from a given amount of injected fuel. You have to get 30K PSI or more to properly atomize the fuel so it'll all burn. With common rail you can control peak cylinder pressures by utilizing many injection events. You can control injection timing with near-infinite precision, at any RPM.



Once the issue of getting high pressure *and* flow out of a rail pump is solved, common rail engines will blow all the others away. But it won't be done with add-on and stacked boxes; it'll require a solid, reliable controller with very flexible programming.



Geez. Did I just agree with Comp? I'd better go have another drink!

 

[Sled Puller]

Neal, you are the LAST person I would listen to arguing computers and programming... but I have a biased opinion from past experience... ... :-laf :-laf