PDR cam w/ DD3 injector install results

[JStieger]

After trying various electronic upgrades and being disappointed overall with the general driveability, perceived lack of reliability, and code issues of these upgrades, I started researching mechanical upgrades so that I could leave my basic truck electronics alone except for a simple pressure box (VA or EZ).



The research started on the older truck forums and pointed towards injectors as a start. Then I read jwilliams3 post about the 04. 5 Scheid cam and through various PMs learned about his positive experiences with this upgrade as well as reading about 1st and 2nd gen experiences with a performance cam.



I also started researching shops to do the cam and injector install, and settled on Dyno-Mite Diesel Performance out of Monroe, WA (750 miles away!) after numerous straightforward and no BS discussions with Evan Beck and Lenny Reed as well as being recommended by Piers and DD. In the end, DDP and I agreed that the cam, DD3 nozzles, and upgrading my HTB2/62/12 to a 14 cm2 exhaust housing to control drive pressures would be the best, safe, and reliable option for my HP/TQ goal of 425-450 HP/850-900 TQ. The following are the results.



Injector R/R:



Lenny inspected my stock injectors and nozzles and found them to be in perfect shape. We attribute this to running the VA pressure box and/or the BDDL, which both are not aggressive on increasing the rail pressure.



Camshaft R/R:



After a bit of a delay at the border the cam showed up. Evan did the install and said it was piece of cake, but they have all the right tools to do the job. Lenny did say that the 3rd gen install is a bit easier and slightly less time consuming than the 1st and 2nd gens.



Initial City Road Test Results (aka stoplight to stoplight racing):



-the dyno showed with my VA at 100% I made 422 HP/966 TQ with 100 HP/200 TQ injectors and the cam. Right before the install my truck dynoed 302 HP/ 717 TQ with the VA on 100%. This is a gain of 120 HP/249 TQ.

-In comparison, my previous BDDL/VA stack made a very EGT hot 456 HP/969 TQ. The fact that I now made less HP at the SAME TQ tells me that the HP comes in earlier in the rpm band, which leads to this...

-improved throttle response off-idle with instant turbo spool up versus the 1 second lag pig of my stock truck or my truck with any electronic boxes.

-minimal smoke, even when matted. As much as it is fun to smoke people out when they really deserve it, the fact of the matter was that with my electronic stacked boxes I had to drive pretending there was an egg under the throttle to control smoke. Not anymore!

-turbo spools as fast as when I had a TST, but does not drastically overshoot the wastegate setting like it did for the TST (or BDDL/VA stack). The boost just climbs to 38 psi at the most and sits there or falls off.



Extended road-trip results (1200 miles):



-Mileage: I have kept detailed records of mileage since new. The cam install mileage gains were phenomenal as measured over city driving (19. 19 mpg) and 80 mph interstate cruise (18. 38 mpg).



stock truck average = 16. 32 mpg

truck with electonic boxes average = 16. 78 mpg

truck with injectors and cam = 18. 79 mpg (2 tanks so far)



-EGT @ WOT uphill: EGT now tops 1200* and settles to 1150* at 36-38 psi boost. This was experienced repeatedly after coming up Cabbage out of Pendleton, OR into the Blue Mtns after slowing down to ~50 mph before the curves and matting it until 85-90 mph and then repeating all while staying in 6th gear. In comparison, EGT with stacked electonic boxes would peg the gauge in these circumstances.

-EGT @ WOT flat road: EGT tops at 1150*

-EGT @ cruise: 50-100* lower than when running stacked electronic boxes

-driveability: see comment above about accelerating uphill from 45 mph in 6th gear without a delay or lugging stutter! It pulls from low rpms like a semi with a CAT! Also, no more of the annoying cruise control surge like I got with electronic boxes.

-water temperature: doesn't break 200* on a hard uphill pull. On level cruise, the gauge now sits 1-2 needle widths below 200*. In comparison, with the electronic boxes, I would hit one needle width above 200* during an uphill WOT pull and sit at 200* during level cruise.



Would I do it again?



For EGT, mileage, and driveability improvements - heck yeah! The next step is to try an EZ box instead of the VA as the EZ does put out more HP and see if the truck can break 1000 TQ due to the power coming in earlier in the rpms.



Dyno Graphs:

 

[RankRam]

That's great news Julius! Thanks for the write up, I'm glad everything worked out for ya. Oo.

 

[HEMI®Dart]

Excellent write-up



Here is the degree symbol if you want to use it °

 

[rbattelle]

I'm don't comment much on these high-performance threads, but that was a great writeup JSteiger!



I am genuinely impressed with your rational, logical, and researched approach to this.



-Ryan

 

[Lonestar]

Great report. I just recently purchased the Schied Cam after following some of jwilliams3 threads about the added benefits of a cam. I would think the PDR cam and the Schied cam will probably yield fairly similar results so now I am really excited. Oo.



Now if I can just get my motor back and get it installed I'll see how it is.



KEEP ON TRUCKIN'

Lonestar

 

[Rams-n-Hogs]

Nice writeup, Jsteiger



Just curious, have you tried the BDDL with this setup?



Jim

 

[JStieger]

Excellent write-up



Here is the degree symbol if you want to use it °

Thanks!



We didn't dyno with the BDDL as it actually never crossed my mind to since I wanted to get away from using it and sell it (when I had version 1. 0 it was really peaky, but my current version 1. 5 has better power delivery - still mid to upper end though, but smoky and hot as a freight train). I would imagine though that it would add something with its moderate injection timing, duration, and pressure addition. The true reason though was that the initial post-install dyno runs were finished past 5:30 (quitting time at 5:00) and the adult beverages were calling. :-laf



I am hoping to pick up a used EZ to try at the upcoming Bully Dog Dyno Days. I am also hoping that VA releases its injection timing/duration box or Edge its 305/555 juice/attitude soon for some testing too. I've had bad experiences with the TST PMCR so that's out of the question. I am partial to the VA products though since they usually have one electrical connection at the ECM.



BTW you have to check out Lenny's '02 converted to 12-valve. It's 59X HP daily driver/shop truck/drag racer/sled puller with a SINGLE turbo (sledpuller66). He took me for a ride while doing errands and at 1/2 throttle off-idle it pins you to the seat with minimal smoke. At 65 mph to passing on the interstate at half-throttle a puff of exhaust smoke, tires are spinning, and the rear end is coming out sideways! I asked him what happens at full throttle. Too much traffic was the reply! I didn't bother asking about what happens when you turn on the NOS; that will be for the next visit up there!

 

[Morse]

Dynomite diesel has been great to deal with. . I purchased Lenny's turbo and injectors that he had on his truck that made 617 or 18 at the wheels. . He also instructed me on the fuel system and nitrous install. . I just purchased my hot juice from them as well for the 05. . I'd recommend them to everyone. .

 

[RVTRKN]

Nv5600 Wow

Hey I heard no NV5600 trany,s were available for 05 4X4 CTD. What gives? I do read the equipment posted.

 

[Matt400]

Great report & research!

Looking at the charts I would think the cam is designed more for racing and not someone who spends allot of time in the 1400 - 1800 RPM yet you report great mpg improvements.



A few questions:

What is the cam you had installed designed for?

Do you know how the lift and duration compares to a stock cam?

What box setting was in use for the city mpg you reported?



Thanks. .

 

[Tomeygun]

wow, just wow



Now to find an installer that can handle this job, Cause you know I am not trying to pull my own Cam - yikes!



For the money, the part seems like a good value!

 

[Matt400]

I dont see the 3rd gen cam listed on their site, I suppose the design follows their 1st and 2gen with towing and daily driving in mind. I wonder if cam timing is also changed over stock.

 

[JStieger]

Great report & research!

Looking at the charts I would think the cam is designed more for racing and not someone who spends allot of time in the 1400 - 1800 RPM yet you report great mpg improvements.



A few questions:

What is the cam you had installed designed for?

Do you know how the lift and duration compares to a stock cam?

What box setting was in use for the city mpg you reported?



Thanks. .

Matt-



The 3rd gen cam was ground from a blank core and it was designed for towing and daily driving. I don't have the specs on the cam, but it does improve low rpm driveability a lot. I noticed the driveability improvements the most in the low rpms, especially in the city or windy road driving where I didn't have to down shift as much as when I had the stock cam. With the stock cam it would be lugging, whereas the new cam just starts pulling. The desire for an "in-between gear" is definitely a lot less now. PDR has details on their website about their cam. It's not updated for the 3rd gens, but the write-up should still apply:



http://piersdiesel.com/DodgeCamshaft.htm



As far as box settings go, I drove with the VA at 100% the whole time. It will be staying there unless I tow. In this case, I might turn the box down. When I was in the cities driving through Seattle and Portland in rush-hour I had to be aggressive too for every inch of pavement.



The other thing I started noticing is the slight difference in sound. It still has the quiet common rail idle, but has lost some of the 3rd gen nasal bumble bee sound. The exhaust tone is a bit lower during driving. Oo.

 

[JStieger]

more info

Here's some info with more dyno graphs from Battering Ram who tested the 3rd gen cam on his 04. 5 a few months ago:



http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65613



jwiiliams3 (PourinDiesel) also weighs in with comments about his Scheid cam.

 

[Matt400]

JStieger- thanks for the added info and the links. I found it interesting to know that BatteringRam said:

The reason for the increase in fuel economy, as much of you already know, is that the 04. 5 and later engines have a more retarded cam timing than earlier engines.

I was wondering about that as I get 19 with my 2003 235/460 SO.

I would be curious to know how many different cam part numbers there are from 2003 to 2006??



This is a very doable mod for me and has grabbed my interest. I sent a email off to PDR asking about its function/improvements to an 03 SO motor.

Thanks again for the review.

 

[JStieger]

Matt-



I believe the stock cam timing is 7 degrees retarded from what Piers posted a while back (don't know if that was for all 3rd gens or for +04. 5). My mileage figures are summarized from basically driving in the wide-open high desert (NV, UT, ID, MT) (75+ mph) since I owned my truck, but I would think that it would not be a stretch for you to see the same kind of gains.



Here's another board that I participate on where there's a good discussion going on about the 3rd gen cam versus the 2nd gen cam:



http://www.nwbombers.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15224



Also, I emailed Piers back in mid-March and this was his reply:



The 3rd gen cam is still in testing, but we should have all the results in, within the next 2 weeks. The cam advances valve train timing, but does nothing to injection pump timing. Usually we see about 100 rpm better turbo spoolup, 75 degree drop in usable egt's & about 2 miles better fuel economy.



As you can see, everything materialized on my truck! I purposely left out the pricing details in all my posts for fairness sake.



Lastly, I think DriverNo8 (the anti-banks guy) had a Scheid cam in his SO truck and he is in CA IIRC. Maybe if you get a hold of him and get some details on his cam results?



Hope this helps!

 

[jwilliams3]

Glad to hear you like the new Cam.



Once your cammed, you don't wanna go back!



*side note: I used the stock tappets as the cam was installed IIRC at about 18k miles on the engine.

Kent Crowder from Scheid Diesel said it would be fine to run the stock tappets since they were so new (if anyone would know, it would be him).



Does your engine behave or sound any different?

 

[JStieger]

Glad to hear you like the new Cam.



Once your cammed, you don't wanna go back!



*side note: I used the stock tappets as the cam was installed IIRC at about 18k miles on the engine.

Kent Crowder from Scheid Diesel said it would be fine to run the stock tappets since they were so new (if anyone would know, it would be him).



Does your engine behave or sound any different?

Hey - it was all your doing! You started it!



As far as tappetts go Piers said it was OK to use the stock ones too on mine since the 3rd gens metallurgy were different than previous generations. Lenny wanted to use new ones, but I think in the end we used the stock ones (I didn't get charged for new tappets and I did see the wooden dowels with elastic bands sticking out the top of the engine. )



The engine does sound different. It has the same quiet idle, but the exhaust tone is a bit lower and doesn't sound nasal bumble bee-ish anymore. Also, when I get on it with the radio off, which now happens a lot, I can hear the valvetrain a bit - like a "sshh, sshh sound" :-laf .



A couple of other things I started noticing more and more are:



1) the rpms fall a bit slower between shifts

2) the SBC FE isn't grabby anymore upon letting the clutch out during 2nd gear starts. Previously to avoid this I would just live with it or give slight rpms to prevent the grabbiness. Now it seems when I let the clutch out, the engine senses the load and applies a bit of fuel compared to before. Weird! And I still live about 8 hours from Area 51...

 

[Diesel Nut]

I may have to call Piers and see about this. Power and milage increases with a drop in egts! Sounds like a winner to me! I'll bet the install is the expensive part, though.

 

[JStieger]

Just curious, have you tried the BDDL with this setup?



Jim

Jim - If I don't sell my BDDL, I will try it at the upcoming Bully Dog Dog Days dyno event July 9 and then post the graphs. I figure I'll probably try the performance (90 HP) setting only with VA 0% or 100% just to be somewhat mild on the injection timing, pressure, and duration contribution. Right now, I'm still running with the VA only on 100% and enjoying every minute of it!

I may have to call Piers and see about this. Power and milage increases with a drop in egts! Sounds like a winner to me! I'll bet the install is the expensive part, though.

Diesel Nut - The cam install was about 10 hours labor, but they also upgraded my turbo exhaust housing and installed injectors at the same time.



The other thing to point out is that I went to a bigger exhaust housing (14 cm2 from 12 cm2), but did not gain any more lag and the spool-up improved due to the cam effect.

I sent a email off to PDR asking about its function/improvements to an 03 SO motor.

Thanks again for the review.

Matt - Did you find anything out on the cam for the SO? Or if there were different part #'s over the 3rd gen years?