The improvements are definetly not in your mind. The dyno showed it. Although peak improvement are almost none, you can see the improvement at lower rpms, which I'm sure you can feel too. I have never dynoed my truck. But I can, without a doubt, say my truck runs stronger at lower rpms with my FASS.
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Preporator DYNO thread
- Thread starter WadePatton
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"But I can, without a doubt, say my truck runs stronger at lower rpms with my FASS. "
UMMmmmm - is that another "seat-of-the-pants" estimate - or do ya have a before/after dyno sheet to back it up?
We REALLY don't wanna go down that road AGAIN, do we?
UMMmmmm - is that another "seat-of-the-pants" estimate - or do ya have a before/after dyno sheet to back it up?
We REALLY don't wanna go down that road AGAIN, do we?
I was waiting for that. I have a Southbend Con FE in my truck. Before the FASS I could not go away from a stop light without a slight jerk in the clutch. Now it is not a problem. Also smooth 3rd gear starts on flat ground with no throttle are now possible. The only thing I can attribute it to is more torque. Driving style stayed the same, only thing that changed was the FASS.
To Kevin and Dave and all whom have been following this thread,
(Kevin, best wishes for your daughter!)
The difference in dyno testing of small diesels vs semi's seems to be that the pickups are run flat out and tested for max hp and torque at peak rpm and the semi's are tested from top rpm down to peak torque and recorded at 100rpm intervals. The semi's are taken to the top operating rpm and loaded by the dyno until rpm begins to sag, the readings are then recorded. The engine is then pulled down by increasing the torque of the dyno to the next lower 100 rpm mark and the output recorded, etc. after repeating this until the engine is brought down to below peak. A torque/hp curve is then plotted from the results. Example: 2,100 rpm, 2,000 rpm, 1900 rpm, 1,800 rpm and on down to 1,200 rpm or where peak torque is reached.
Dyno tests have been done in this manner on many class 8 trucks on many different chassis dyno's as well as at the University of West Virginia engine and emission lab. The results speak for themselves. At the W VA lab torque rise off idle increased approximately 103% - 106%, peak torque increased by 6% and did not fall off at the higher rpm ranges as before. This supports the 'feeling' of better performance through the different rpm ranges of acceleration of an in motion vehicle. I am in no way trying to make an excuse for the seemingly 'no increase' posted at flat out top end dyno's for the pickups. In every application of the Fuel Preporator on in-use engines from wood chippers to gen-sets to Cat bulldozers to over the road trucks to 4,000 hp tug boat engines we have documented increases in productivity resulting from increased torque output and at the same time a reduction in fuel consumption and a reduction in exhaust emissions which implies a much cleaner burn.
Additionally, numerous emission testing has confirmed the cleaner burn issue.
Again, thanks to all! More to come,
Charlie
(Kevin, best wishes for your daughter!)
The difference in dyno testing of small diesels vs semi's seems to be that the pickups are run flat out and tested for max hp and torque at peak rpm and the semi's are tested from top rpm down to peak torque and recorded at 100rpm intervals. The semi's are taken to the top operating rpm and loaded by the dyno until rpm begins to sag, the readings are then recorded. The engine is then pulled down by increasing the torque of the dyno to the next lower 100 rpm mark and the output recorded, etc. after repeating this until the engine is brought down to below peak. A torque/hp curve is then plotted from the results. Example: 2,100 rpm, 2,000 rpm, 1900 rpm, 1,800 rpm and on down to 1,200 rpm or where peak torque is reached.
Dyno tests have been done in this manner on many class 8 trucks on many different chassis dyno's as well as at the University of West Virginia engine and emission lab. The results speak for themselves. At the W VA lab torque rise off idle increased approximately 103% - 106%, peak torque increased by 6% and did not fall off at the higher rpm ranges as before. This supports the 'feeling' of better performance through the different rpm ranges of acceleration of an in motion vehicle. I am in no way trying to make an excuse for the seemingly 'no increase' posted at flat out top end dyno's for the pickups. In every application of the Fuel Preporator on in-use engines from wood chippers to gen-sets to Cat bulldozers to over the road trucks to 4,000 hp tug boat engines we have documented increases in productivity resulting from increased torque output and at the same time a reduction in fuel consumption and a reduction in exhaust emissions which implies a much cleaner burn.
Additionally, numerous emission testing has confirmed the cleaner burn issue.
Again, thanks to all! More to come,
Charlie
Of Note... .
My friend and I installed relay's on my Fuel Preporator and on his Fass system this weekend...
What was intersting to me was some differences we observed with the two...
The Fuel Preporator has larger wire running out of it and with the adding of the 30 amp relay it responded with 3 more PSI.
The Fass system had smaller wire and it gained no PSI increase with the use of the relay.
The other difference is the side by side comparison... The Preporator is visibly a higher end product! It is almost a work of art.
This post isn't to imply that if you bought a FASS system you made a mistake. There is no need to get any feathers ruffled here.
These are two different systems and the Preporator is definately more expensive... So it is not an apples to apples comparison.
I feel that if Preporator wanted to put a dent in it's competition it would manufacture this unit in higher volume and get the price down, thus selling more units. In essence switch to a mode of higher volume equates to more profit. I feel that if it wasn't so cost prohibitive that huge volumes of people wouldn't hesitate to purchase it and install it.
In my business I could sell only one item per month at a profit of 10,000. (not likely but just an example) or I could sell 10,000 items at a profit of 10. 00 each (more likely????). Extreme example but you get the picture.
This was my humble experience this weekend and my even more humble opinion.
Thanks
James
My friend and I installed relay's on my Fuel Preporator and on his Fass system this weekend...
What was intersting to me was some differences we observed with the two...
The Fuel Preporator has larger wire running out of it and with the adding of the 30 amp relay it responded with 3 more PSI.
The Fass system had smaller wire and it gained no PSI increase with the use of the relay.
The other difference is the side by side comparison... The Preporator is visibly a higher end product! It is almost a work of art.
This post isn't to imply that if you bought a FASS system you made a mistake. There is no need to get any feathers ruffled here.
These are two different systems and the Preporator is definately more expensive... So it is not an apples to apples comparison.
I feel that if Preporator wanted to put a dent in it's competition it would manufacture this unit in higher volume and get the price down, thus selling more units. In essence switch to a mode of higher volume equates to more profit. I feel that if it wasn't so cost prohibitive that huge volumes of people wouldn't hesitate to purchase it and install it.
In my business I could sell only one item per month at a profit of 10,000. (not likely but just an example) or I could sell 10,000 items at a profit of 10. 00 each (more likely????). Extreme example but you get the picture.
This was my humble experience this weekend and my even more humble opinion.
Thanks
James
No question that a well designed aftermarket fuel system using quality, long lasting components is greatly needed for our trucks - the relatively simple and inexpensive added pushers some of us use do a good job and greatly reduce system failures - it will be interesting to see how well the FASS and Preporator systems do over the long haul in our trucks, and if other related problems like failed VP-44's are reduced as welcome side benefit...
Charles- Thanks for clearing up how the differences in the Dyno runs were recorded. I now am able to say my pressures are at 14. 5PSI and do not fall below 13. 5 at WOT, although I need to load the trailer up to really see the difference.
The decrease in "exhaust" smell and less smoke are definetly there- which could confirm Charles claim about reduced emissions. It's too early to tell about mileage just yet, I've had some issues with a few fittings and an isolator I need to get taken care of first.
Kev
The decrease in "exhaust" smell and less smoke are definetly there- which could confirm Charles claim about reduced emissions. It's too early to tell about mileage just yet, I've had some issues with a few fittings and an isolator I need to get taken care of first.
Kev
Sorry shortsfift, I missed this one until I went to post my Dyno numbers. As far as the Wye goes, I went through all kinds of ideas trying to engineer something, and realized that all that was really needed was a directional Wye- similar to what is used in DWV (Drain waste plumbing). Instead of a T fitting, the intersection of the incoming line to the flow through line is at a 45 degree angle. Thus, there is no way they liquid can flow the wrong way. They are not the easiest fittings to find, but since you are in Southern California, try McFadden-Dale Hardware. They have the fitting in both 1/2 and 3/4 FPT in galvanized. From there I just used threaded brass barb fittings. The hole setup was no more than $10. I will try and get a photo later.
Kev
Kev
How'dHeDoThat,
Thanks for the comments, they are appreciated. The Fuel Preporator that you purchased was originally designed for Class 8 trucks. It is expensive to manufacture and to package. It is also very expensive to patent a product. So far, three US patents issued, two more US patents filed, one allowed and ready to issue and PCT filings in 117 countries. Very expensive! The development of the product was expensive and the court battle, etc. has been costly beyond imagination. For a Class 8 truck the original cost at just half of the average fuel savings of approximately $2,400. 00 was quite cost effective. However, for a pickup truck it would be quite expensive. The price was reduced because of 'you know who'!!! That's also some of the reasons for the state court action for theft of trade secrets, predatory pricing and misrepresentation in the market place and the Federal Patent Infringement Suit.
The new AIR DOG FP-80 & 80HP, designed specifically for the pickup market, complete with relay controlled wiring harness, fuel pressure monitor and indicator light fuel lines and tank connections, 6 micron StrataPore tm filters to meet OEM spec's (and plastic ties), CARB Approved and ISO-9001 manufactured, will be at an introductory price of less than 1/3 of the stated average fuel savings of a class 8 truck. (I didn't say the price
Steve!)
James, the investment cost to bring the Air Dog to the market has been very very high. The end product however is extremely high quality. I think that most who read this TDR thread are here because of their quest for quality and performance. (They could have surely found a much cheaper pickup truck to purchase if they had not wanted quality, right?) When you see the AIR DOG on the "TWO GUYS GARAGE" show on the SPEED Channel May 15, 2004 @ 7:30 EST, you will see more of the same quality as you saw in the Preporator you purchased. We agree with you, it is "almost a work of art". I also agree with you in the marketing concept of low margin and high volume, that's why we have the AIR DOG at a low MSRP and a very low introductory price.
As an old friend of mine once said, "the sweet taste of a low price is quickly replaced by the lingering bitterness of poor quality!"
Again, thanks for your comments!
Charlie
Thanks for the comments, they are appreciated. The Fuel Preporator that you purchased was originally designed for Class 8 trucks. It is expensive to manufacture and to package. It is also very expensive to patent a product. So far, three US patents issued, two more US patents filed, one allowed and ready to issue and PCT filings in 117 countries. Very expensive! The development of the product was expensive and the court battle, etc. has been costly beyond imagination. For a Class 8 truck the original cost at just half of the average fuel savings of approximately $2,400. 00 was quite cost effective. However, for a pickup truck it would be quite expensive. The price was reduced because of 'you know who'!!! That's also some of the reasons for the state court action for theft of trade secrets, predatory pricing and misrepresentation in the market place and the Federal Patent Infringement Suit.
The new AIR DOG FP-80 & 80HP, designed specifically for the pickup market, complete with relay controlled wiring harness, fuel pressure monitor and indicator light fuel lines and tank connections, 6 micron StrataPore tm filters to meet OEM spec's (and plastic ties), CARB Approved and ISO-9001 manufactured, will be at an introductory price of less than 1/3 of the stated average fuel savings of a class 8 truck. (I didn't say the price
Steve!)
James, the investment cost to bring the Air Dog to the market has been very very high. The end product however is extremely high quality. I think that most who read this TDR thread are here because of their quest for quality and performance. (They could have surely found a much cheaper pickup truck to purchase if they had not wanted quality, right?) When you see the AIR DOG on the "TWO GUYS GARAGE" show on the SPEED Channel May 15, 2004 @ 7:30 EST, you will see more of the same quality as you saw in the Preporator you purchased. We agree with you, it is "almost a work of art". I also agree with you in the marketing concept of low margin and high volume, that's why we have the AIR DOG at a low MSRP and a very low introductory price.
As an old friend of mine once said, "the sweet taste of a low price is quickly replaced by the lingering bitterness of poor quality!"
Again, thanks for your comments!
Charlie
Wade, did you ever make the install of the Preporator? I was wondering about your opinion of the install/system.
I was wondering why the other dyno results were not run with the preporator system. Just curious to see what, if any , results were. ( Wade, where did you go? )
Just got done watching the 2 Guys Garage with the Preporator Air Dog system installed on a 02 F250 Stroker. The system looked good but was hard to tell what the difference would be in size / weight, from the air dog to the one used for class 8 trucks.
After all the talk going on in these threads, I was disappointed that after the install on the Ford, that it was not immediately put on the dyno. This would have been the perfect time to do that, and in front of a huge audience, to actually show everyone that the claims from on the Preporator web site are true.
Oh well, maybe next time.....
I am just glad that the main reason ... ... reliability... ... . has supposedly been achieved by these fueling systems and that it will be a long time before I have to worry about a pump going out leaving anyone stranded.
Just got done watching the 2 Guys Garage with the Preporator Air Dog system installed on a 02 F250 Stroker. The system looked good but was hard to tell what the difference would be in size / weight, from the air dog to the one used for class 8 trucks.
After all the talk going on in these threads, I was disappointed that after the install on the Ford, that it was not immediately put on the dyno. This would have been the perfect time to do that, and in front of a huge audience, to actually show everyone that the claims from on the Preporator web site are true.
Oh well, maybe next time.....
I am just glad that the main reason ... ... reliability... ... . has supposedly been achieved by these fueling systems and that it will be a long time before I have to worry about a pump going out leaving anyone stranded.
That's the problem, the reliability has only been claimed like the horsepower gains. We have already seen that the horsepower claims have not held up in our application, so how can we believe that the reliability will? Perhaps, but so far neither the FASS nor the Preporator System is confident enough either to put up a warrantee that guarantees this reliability, so why should we believe in it? For $280 you can get two OEM lift pumps which will equate to the same warrantee period. If my OEM pump breaks down on the road, I can fix it with the spare under my rear seat. How many of you keep a spare FASS/Preporator around?
Additionally, I don't like the thought of the fuel heater being removed or relocated either.
As I have mentioned in other threads, the real test numbers on any of the aftermarket systems needs to be based on failures-per-thousand units - with so many stock pumps out there, and so FEW of the aftermarket ones, percentage-wise, the aftermarket stuff LOOKS good - but can't really be sure on our trucks in so apples/oranges a test...
Get one guy in 50 (a stretch in total users here!) with a failure on an aftermarket system, and it sounds good - but *20* failures on a stock system out of perhaps 1000 users - far more likely number of owners - and you have the same percentage of failures - but the the stock system SEEMS worse because of the numbers involved...
Get one guy in 50 (a stretch in total users here!) with a failure on an aftermarket system, and it sounds good - but *20* failures on a stock system out of perhaps 1000 users - far more likely number of owners - and you have the same percentage of failures - but the the stock system SEEMS worse because of the numbers involved...
Finding people who are honest about failures is another story as well.
Some vendors/consumers keep quiet about stuff that breaks... can't say I blame them in some instances.
Matt
Some vendors/consumers keep quiet about stuff that breaks... can't say I blame them in some instances.
Matt
Originally posted by dresslered
How many of you keep a spare FASS/Preporator around?
Probably not many, but Charles and Brad both stand firmly behind their products and have provided excellent service and support of their products respectively. Can the same be said of Chrysler and Cummins on your $140 lift pumps???
Me niether, that's why I left mine connected and functional
. Kev
back to the top
RE:fuel Preporater
March 19, 2004
I just installed the fuel preporater with some phone help from Charles. What a great guy to talk to. He spent a lot of time explaining how it all works, etc.
It went well. I did not change the fuel tank pick up line but will at a later time with 3/8 or ½ inch line. I also connected the stock fuel filter canister in line with the preporator so I will have a fuel heater. That way I will not wax up my VP44 pump when it is cold. How I know to do this, I spoke to an engineer from Bosch Germany who helped engineered the making of the VP44 pump. Also got lots of other info that I wont get into at this point. Also the preporator filters at 10 microns and our stock one filters at 2 microns and the stock canister does not have much flow restriction. How I know this is I did a flow test on it.
And a BIG thank you to Bill and Steve for the stock filter canisters that they donated to me. And cant leave out 4X4 Bob for all the many lift pumps.
You could also connect in line your stock lift pump and it will flow fine right through it.
Tested that also. So all you FASS guyÂ’s good luck in the winter with no fuel heater! Unless you connected one up with using your heater hose?
I also mounted a max flow kit from the stock filter canister to the VP44 it uses ½ braided SS line and fittings and 3/8 Goodyear gorilla hose lines the rest of the way down to the pump then to the tank. The fuel preporater return line to the tank over flow I used ½ inch gorilla hose and ¾ inch Y with ¾ inch gorilla hose. I mounted ½ inch SS shut off valves with locking handles pre and post of the pump. Also makes for a Great anti theft device!!. I pre filled the filter and water separator and then bleed the system by bumping the starter a couple of times and letting the fuel run into a 6 gal gas can then reconnected to the VP44 and bump the starter again after that started it. It started right up. My psi at idle 15 psi and giving it the go paddle it is 14 psi. It will improve when I replace the pick up tube in the tank to 3/8 or ½ inch lines. Which will be done soon. I noticed when running the motor it doesn’t smell as bad which is clean burning. Smokes less when given the go pedal.
I will update when I put some miles on it. Im off to a good start.
Off to the Dyno oh I for got stall have to install kev's pump then Off to the Dyno
David
Last edited by dsherman on 04-01-2004 at 07:51 AM
RE:fuel Preporater
Originally posted by dsherman
March 19, 2004
I just installed the fuel preporater with some phone help from Charles. What a great guy to talk to. He spent a lot of time explaining how it all works, etc.
It went well. I did not change the fuel tank pick up line but will at a later time with 3/8 or ½ inch line. I also connected the stock fuel filter canister in line with the preporator so I will have a fuel heater. That way I will not wax up my VP44 pump when it is cold. How I know to do this, I spoke to an engineer from Bosch Germany who helped engineered the making of the VP44 pump. Also got lots of other info that I wont get into at this point. Also the preporator filters at 10 microns and our stock one filters at 2 microns and the stock canister does not have much flow restriction. How I know this is I did a flow test on it.
And a BIG thank you to Bill and Steve for the stock filter canisters that they donated to me. And cant leave out 4X4 Bob for all the many lift pumps.
You could also connect in line your stock lift pump and it will flow fine right through it.
Tested that also. So all you FASS guyÂ’s good luck in the winter with no fuel heater! Unless you connected one up with using your heater hose?
I also mounted a max flow kit from the stock filter canister to the VP44 it uses ½ braided SS line and fittings and 3/8 Goodyear gorilla hose lines the rest of the way down to the pump then to the tank. The fuel preporater return line to the tank over flow I used ½ inch gorilla hose and ¾ inch Y with ¾ inch gorilla hose. I mounted ½ inch SS shut off valves with locking handles pre and post of the pump. Also makes for a Great anti theft device!!. I pre filled the filter and water separator and then bleed the system by bumping the starter a couple of times and letting the fuel run into a 6 gal gas can then reconnected to the VP44 and bump the starter again after that started it. It started right up. My psi at idle 15 psi and giving it the go paddle it is 14 psi. It will improve when I replace the pick up tube in the tank to 3/8 or ½ inch lines. Which will be done soon. I noticed when running the motor it doesn’t smell as bad which is clean burning. Smokes less when given the go pedal.
I will update when I put some miles on it. Im off to a good start.
Off to the Dyno oh I for got stall have to install kev's pump then Off to the Dyno
David:--) :--) :--)
March 19, 2004
I just installed the fuel preporater with some phone help from Charles. What a great guy to talk to. He spent a lot of time explaining how it all works, etc.
It went well. I did not change the fuel tank pick up line but will at a later time with 3/8 or ½ inch line. I also connected the stock fuel filter canister in line with the preporator so I will have a fuel heater. That way I will not wax up my VP44 pump when it is cold. How I know to do this, I spoke to an engineer from Bosch Germany who helped engineered the making of the VP44 pump. Also got lots of other info that I wont get into at this point. Also the preporator filters at 10 microns and our stock one filters at 2 microns and the stock canister does not have much flow restriction. How I know this is I did a flow test on it.
And a BIG thank you to Bill and Steve for the stock filter canisters that they donated to me. And cant leave out 4X4 Bob for all the many lift pumps.
You could also connect in line your stock lift pump and it will flow fine right through it.
Tested that also. So all you FASS guyÂ’s good luck in the winter with no fuel heater! Unless you connected one up with using your heater hose?
I also mounted a max flow kit from the stock filter canister to the VP44 it uses ½ braided SS line and fittings and 3/8 Goodyear gorilla hose lines the rest of the way down to the pump then to the tank. The fuel preporater return line to the tank over flow I used ½ inch gorilla hose and ¾ inch Y with ¾ inch gorilla hose. I mounted ½ inch SS shut off valves with locking handles pre and post of the pump. Also makes for a Great anti theft device!!. I pre filled the filter and water separator and then bleed the system by bumping the starter a couple of times and letting the fuel run into a 6 gal gas can then reconnected to the VP44 and bump the starter again after that started it. It started right up. My psi at idle 15 psi and giving it the go paddle it is 14 psi. It will improve when I replace the pick up tube in the tank to 3/8 or ½ inch lines. Which will be done soon. I noticed when running the motor it doesn’t smell as bad which is clean burning. Smokes less when given the go pedal.
I will update when I put some miles on it. Im off to a good start.
Off to the Dyno oh I for got stall have to install kev's pump then Off to the Dyno
David
Last edited by dsherman on 04-01-2004 at 07:51 AM
Cummins will replace your lift pump if it doesn't last the warrantee period just as I'm sure Charles and Brad will. However, where will they be after their 2-year warranty is up? I'm not trying to knock their product, I'm just saying that if it does fail on the road, it might be a heck of a lot harder to repair.
Also, I have always replaced my own lift pumps ordered directly from Cummins. After sending Chrysler the bill (overnight shipping and even power boosters membership fee), they have always reimbursed me without questions (I also get to keep the old ones for spares). For the time being, I think that I have a good system in place. As new systems are being refined and developed, I may end up taking a different route after my 5-yr/100,000 mile warranty is up.
"Cummins will replace your lift pump if it doesn't last the warrantee period just as I'm sure Charles and Brad will. However, where will they be after their 2-year warranty is up? I'm not trying to knock their product, I'm just saying that if it does fail on the road, it might be a heck of a lot harder to repair. "
An EXTREMELY valid point!
Which would you rather potentially be stuck with out on the road - one of the DC pumps available just down the road at the next dealership - or a specialty one that just MIGHT be DAYS away depending on where you are at the time and what day it happens...
SOME here seem determinedly intent on a cult-like sort of "hero worship" of various manufacturers/vendors of this stuff - we frequently read this "Joe Schmoe is SUCH a nice guy - told me ALL about this fancy do-hickey he wanted to sell me... " JEEZE, what do you EXPECT him to do, try to get you to buy one from his competitor instead?
Personally. I try to carefully select what I think will work best for ME at a price I can afford or am willing to pay - it's not a personality contest between manufacturers or salesmen - it either works properly, is a good value, and provides reasonable expectation of a good lifespan - or it DOESN'T, and I don't buy it!
I'd FAR rather buy a GREAT product from a grouchy SOB at a reasonable price (and HAVE!), than what might be a poorer choice from a guy with a gift of gab and a "nice smile"...
It's sorta unlikely the salesman/manufacturers "great personality" will be of much value or consolation if I'm stuck late out on a rainy night on a lonely road or mountain top... 
An EXTREMELY valid point!
Which would you rather potentially be stuck with out on the road - one of the DC pumps available just down the road at the next dealership - or a specialty one that just MIGHT be DAYS away depending on where you are at the time and what day it happens...
SOME here seem determinedly intent on a cult-like sort of "hero worship" of various manufacturers/vendors of this stuff - we frequently read this "Joe Schmoe is SUCH a nice guy - told me ALL about this fancy do-hickey he wanted to sell me... " JEEZE, what do you EXPECT him to do, try to get you to buy one from his competitor instead?
Personally. I try to carefully select what I think will work best for ME at a price I can afford or am willing to pay - it's not a personality contest between manufacturers or salesmen - it either works properly, is a good value, and provides reasonable expectation of a good lifespan - or it DOESN'T, and I don't buy it!
I'd FAR rather buy a GREAT product from a grouchy SOB at a reasonable price (and HAVE!), than what might be a poorer choice from a guy with a gift of gab and a "nice smile"...
It's sorta unlikely the salesman/manufacturers "great personality" will be of much value or consolation if I'm stuck late out on a rainy night on a lonely road or mountain top...
Last edited:
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