Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Quad-adrenalin

[Tomscreek]

Will this Adrenaline work on an otherwise bone stock 01 HO?

 

[Cummins724]

Will this Adrenaline work on an otherwise bone stock 01 HO?

It will work well, but you better have a fuel system like Fass or Airdog to give it fuel. The Adrenaline was tested on a bone stock 01 truck at quads shop & showed a 180hp increase over stock.

 

[PC12Driver]

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the Adrenaline looks at far more parameters than the other boxes out there to control the fueling. I think all the other boxes on the market look at mainly boost to control fueling. The power of the 32bit processor allows it to do that.

I dunno about far more parameters... The air charge density is what would determine the fueling rate, and that only takes pressure (MAP) and temperature (IAT) to figure. If there's any sort of dynamic timing (a la Smarty), advance it would have to use throttle position info vs. actual rpm to determine load, but that's not listed as a feature (although it could pick that up from the CANBUS pretty easily I suppose). So there really aren't any more fueling-related parameters to utilize on our engine, since other boxes already use boost, and probably spoof the IAT signal in the ECM to get the timing advance.



This brings me back to my original post above: our engines live on a pretty basic formula - more fuel = more power = more smoke, with timing available to tweak the output a bit. So if there's less smoke, what changed? Either less fuel (and power) or more timing (higher advance). Common rail types have a third dimension to adjust with rail pressure, but that's not an option with a VP44.



Saying that the box has a 32-bit processor doesn't tell me anything about the box. You can have a 32-bit processor in a digital clock. Throwing that number out is the same type of marketing used in the digital camera market with megapixels. The average buyer doesn't know squat about cameras, and they see a high MP rating and instantly correlate that with quality. I'd bet 95% of the buyers don't even know what a megapixel is. And if you pair a high MP sensor with poor software (in the camera - the instructions that interpret the data from the sensor and actually create the picture), you'll end up with a poor picture. The MP rating is only a small part of the puzzle, just like having a 32-bit processor.



I'm not saying that it's a bad box, just that we don't really know anything about it yet. All we have is a page on the manufacturer's site and feedback from a few guys with beta boxes (who paid full retail price. . ?), neither of which can be assumed to be unbiased. I'm gonna wait a bit and let these things populate the market a while and get on someone else's dyno who isn't the manufacturer, and then maybe I'll think about tossin' the Comp.

 

[Cummins724]

I dunno about far more parameters... The air charge density is what would determine the fueling rate, and that only takes pressure (MAP) and temperature (IAT) to figure. If there's any sort of dynamic timing (a la Smarty), advance it would have to use throttle position info vs. actual rpm to determine load, but that's not listed as a feature (although it could pick that up from the CANBUS pretty easily I suppose). So there really aren't any more fueling-related parameters to utilize on our engine, since other boxes already use boost, and probably spoof the IAT signal in the ECM to get the timing advance.



This brings me back to my original post above: our engines live on a pretty basic formula - more fuel = more power = more smoke, with timing available to tweak the output a bit. So if there's less smoke, what changed? Either less fuel (and power) or more timing (higher advance). Common rail types have a third dimension to adjust with rail pressure, but that's not an option with a VP44.



Saying that the box has a 32-bit processor doesn't tell me anything about the box. You can have a 32-bit processor in a digital clock. Throwing that number out is the same type of marketing used in the digital camera market with megapixels. The average buyer doesn't know squat about cameras, and they see a high MP rating and instantly correlate that with quality. I'd bet 95% of the buyers don't even know what a megapixel is. And if you pair a high MP sensor with poor software (in the camera - the instructions that interpret the data from the sensor and actually create the picture), you'll end up with a poor picture. The MP rating is only a small part of the puzzle, just like having a 32-bit processor.



I'm not saying that it's a bad box, just that we don't really know anything about it yet. All we have is a page on the manufacturer's site and feedback from a few guys with beta boxes (who paid full retail price. . ?), neither of which can be assumed to be unbiased. I'm gonna wait a bit and let these things populate the market a while and get on someone else's dyno who isn't the manufacturer, and then maybe I'll think about tossin' the Comp.

You will understand better once the box is released.

 

[DCreed]

when EXACTLY will this be?? been waiting MONTHS!!

 

[PC12Driver]

You will understand better once the box is released.

That's kinda my point. As of right now we don't know anything about the box except a handful of folk's subjective opinions. I did find some dyno results. Not quite the 60hp over the Comp that was claimed though.

 

[PC12Driver]

when EXACTLY will this be?? been waiting MONTHS!!

If you look over on the DTR there's an ongoing thread about the beta testing on this box. Looks like they're still having trouble getting all the features to work reliably on every truck. Points for the company taking an active interest in getting it right, though.

 

[Cummins724]

I got it installed & took it for a ride, sorry it took so long, but I had to swap out the recon monitor also as changes to it have been made too. The surging is gone although you could feel a slight hickup once in a while at 1800rpm, but nothing that bothers me any & when I say slight I mean slight like hardly noticeable. The new box has a protection feature where it doesn't fuel until the coolant temp reaches 170*, until then the PL00 flashes on the screen. great feature!

The power is equal to the previous software, but way smoother since the shudder is gone. The TT is awesome, smooth as glass & cancels out by hitting the go pedal. The high idle still won't work on my truck, but I think it is because of the old Smarty high idle overriding it & although smarty has been returned to stock, it still left the high idle engaged. I love this box & I'm sure that you all will as well. Quadzilla Rocks!!!!

 

[qzilla]

I dunno about far more parameters... The air charge density is what would determine the fueling rate, and that only takes pressure (MAP) and temperature (IAT) to figure. If there's any sort of dynamic timing (a la Smarty), advance it would have to use throttle position info vs. actual rpm to determine load, but that's not listed as a feature (although it could pick that up from the CANBUS pretty easily I suppose). So there really aren't any more fueling-related parameters to utilize on our engine, since other boxes already use boost, and probably spoof the IAT signal in the ECM to get the timing advance.



This brings me back to my original post above: our engines live on a pretty basic formula - more fuel = more power = more smoke, with timing available to tweak the output a bit. So if there's less smoke, what changed? Either less fuel (and power) or more timing (higher advance). Common rail types have a third dimension to adjust with rail pressure, but that's not an option with a VP44.



Saying that the box has a 32-bit processor doesn't tell me anything about the box. You can have a 32-bit processor in a digital clock. Throwing that number out is the same type of marketing used in the digital camera market with megapixels. The average buyer doesn't know squat about cameras, and they see a high MP rating and instantly correlate that with quality. I'd bet 95% of the buyers don't even know what a megapixel is. And if you pair a high MP sensor with poor software (in the camera - the instructions that interpret the data from the sensor and actually create the picture), you'll end up with a poor picture. The MP rating is only a small part of the puzzle, just like having a 32-bit processor.



I'm not saying that it's a bad box, just that we don't really know anything about it yet. All we have is a page on the manufacturer's site and feedback from a few guys with beta boxes (who paid full retail price. . ?), neither of which can be assumed to be unbiased. I'm gonna wait a bit and let these things populate the market a while and get on someone else's dyno who isn't the manufacturer, and then maybe I'll think about tossin' the Comp.

First let me say that I understand 100% where you are coming from. I will do my best to explain what we are doing different, why and how downloaders work. I will attempt to do this without completely boring every one!!



First, there is a lot to the factory ECM programming. Typically the factory ECM has 1 or 2 main "fuel" and timing maps. From there you have a variety of scaling factors such as IAT, ECT, MAF, BARO etc. Now in order to change this a downloader either had to get his hands ont he factory code so he knows the correct adresses for the correct maps, or he has to do what he can. Most of the one I have looked at typically change the main fueling map. This covers most of your scenarios. From there they allow the factory scaling maps to be on their own. Now in the case of the Smarty you are limited in power based on a built in safety that will shut the VP44 off if the commanded fuel stretchis too high. We all know that is why you have to wire tap something.



The downsides to doing this sort of thing is that while you can change things you are limited to what the ECM deems "ok". If you get out of that range then the ECM gets irritable. So while you can change it you still have some limitations.





Now, as it was mentioned most of the fuel boxes out there are either boost based, boost VS TPS based and maybe throw RPM into the mix.



We do it totally different. I am not going to give away the ghost but, we have enough processing power to look at a lot more stuff to make a fueling decision. We end up with 3 or 4 axis fueling and timing maps. We are creating parameters and looking at parameters such as:

Driver Demand % Load (takes into account many parameters to determine what the driver want such as TPS, RPM, Desired Fuel Stretch etc. )

Actual Load

IAT

ECT

request deg timing

request fuel stretch

RPM

TPS

Boost

to name a few.





Now, from there we are not limited to what the ECM thinks, the ECM never know what I tell the VP44 to do because I am between the ECM and VP44. So in my own way I can change the curve and do whatever I want. In reality I create my own fueling curve. Now this is a double edged sword as my beta testers are finding out. We have the ability to give the throttle response, smoke control, fuel mileage etc but, since we are somewhat writing our own fueling and timing maps we are re-inventing the wheel and we have small things like surging or missing that we have to address.



I would attribute to the More Power less smoke thing to our timing. I think we are pretty aggressive with timing for mileage and smoke control. We are not stuck with 1 timing map, we change the timing to match the fueling. If we know exactly how much fuel we are commanding we can precisely figure the need amount of time to burn that fuel. That is how we can smoke less. Any engineer with the info we have could do the same.



Now, with all that said, its not magic. We just happen to take things we have learned and things we are using that are technologically up to date and applied it to the older trucks. No one else has done it so it seems like it is impossible. The real advantage we have with the 32 bit processor is that we can bank data in large amounts and make smarter decisions on controlling the engine.



Also, we are not "spoofing" anything. We are 100% controlling everything we are doing directly. There is no guessing or changing stuff to make it do something else.



Hope that answers some questions. I could go into a lot of detail but, I don't think that is needed at this time!

 

[darkhorse]

Thanks for the insights,qzilla. The Adrenaline sounds very promising. I look forward to it's release & subsequent user reports. I'm doubtfull it will offer a whole lot more than my current set up but if I were just starting out I'd definitely be serious about getting one.

 

[qzilla]

The difference might not be in peak power for someone with a setup like yours.



We might have a better curve, or more responsive curve.



Where you would personally benefit are from the features. TT, High Idle(Different than Smarty), De-fueling when needed and stuff like that.



But, if it ain't broke, don't try fixing it!

 

[Graphic man]

Quad,



whats in store for us guys looking for all out HP and drag racing or sled pulling?



is this all we will ever see out of a VP44 for HP? or are you guys working on more tunes for racing then whats currently available



Thanks

Scott

 

[qzilla]

Well, there are things we can do better than what is available. There is the point where you can only spit out so much fuel, that is a mechanical issue.



Things like extended revs without all the CEL's! Something that fuels all the way to the redline.



Dyno's are sort of misleading because they are designed to mainly capture a peak number. What is more important is area under the curve. This is especially true if you are pulling and somewhat true if you are drag racing.



Now, with that said, the other boxes I own and have tested against do not show some of the numbers I have seen on here. I am not sure if it is having the right combo or what?



I know that the current tuning that is going out right now on an 2002 5spd with a 62/12 and 4" exhaust, NO OTHER MODS AT ALL, the box makes over 180rwhp gain. It puts the truck right around 380-390rwhp depending on the outside temp. This is on a stock lift pump.



I plan to have that graph up soon where I can post it.

 

[johncameron]

I know that the current tuning that is going out right now on an 2002 5spd with a 62/12 and 4" exhaust, NO OTHER MODS AT ALL, the box makes over 180rwhp gain. It puts the truck right around 380-390rwhp depending on the outside temp. This is on a stock lift pump. I plan to have that graph up soon where I can post it.

Come on, you must have an aftermarket clutch to handle those #'s:-laf

 

[qzilla]

No clutch, see that is sort of why the dyno is not the end all be all. It never slips on the dyno BUT, if you are on the road and nail it in anything above PL04 you can forget it.



I am pretty certain that when we are done a truck with a fuel system, turbo and a clutch or built auto should make over 400rwhp easily. That is the goal anyhow.

 

[PC12Driver]

Now, from there we are not limited to what the ECM thinks, the ECM never know what I tell the VP44 to do because I am between the ECM and VP44.

That's the part I'm trying to wrap my head around I guess. Going by the instructions on your site, you're using the data port. Isn't that a pipe into the ECM, not the VP44? If that's the case, it seems like you're still persuading the existing software in the ECM to do your bidding for fuel control (that's what I meant by "spoofing"). Then the wire tap has to still work with the commands from the ECM.



Unless you've come up with a way to tell the ECM not to send a fueling signal at all to the VP and everything is being done via your box through the wiretap...

 

[qzilla]

That's the part I'm trying to wrap my head around I guess. Going by the instructions on your site, you're using the data port. Isn't that a pipe into the ECM, not the VP44? If that's the case, it seems like you're still persuading the existing software in the ECM to do your bidding for fuel control (that's what I meant by "spoofing"). Then the wire tap has to still work with the commands from the ECM.



Unless you've come up with a way to tell the ECM not to send a fueling signal at all to the VP and everything is being done via your box through the wiretap...

Without saying too much, how do you think the ECM commands the VP44? How do you think the VP44 knows how long to open or close its solenoid?



Do we see ECM data, sure. Can we stop it and send what we want, of course.



So, if I was ONLY wire tapping the box, I am limited as far as when the injection event happens but, not how much duration it has.



If I am Commanding the time and length of the commanded fuel signal and I am wire tapping, I have 100% control.



Now, that does not mean I can always do what I want. Too much or too little causes obvious problems but, I am not hindered by the ECM in any way, the ECM has no idea what I am doing and I don't really care what it wants either so it is a good relationship.

 

[Boondocker]

... the ECM has no idea what I am doing and I don't really care what it wants either so it is a good relationship.

Hmmm... sounds like the ideal girlfriend :-laf

 

[qzilla]

Now you are just dreamin!!!

 

[NoSeeUm]

Hmmm... sounds like the ideal girlfriend :-laf

LOL



Or a good way to get the back of your head flattened out as you step in the door.



Jim