Royal Purple or Amsoil

[amsoilman]

Disclaimer: Not affiliated with any company.

Sure your not! LOOK at your "web Page"!

Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Texas Diesel]

Sure I'm NOT. I dont make a single penny off any sales of Royal Purple, can you make that claim? I'm not a rep, salesman, or promoter just very happy with the performance of Royal Purple products.



Do you profit off of Amsoil? Hmmmm, perhaps confilct of interest. You shamelessly and ceasely promote Amsoil (for direct profit) and you criticize me for plugging a product for which I dont receive a penny?

 

[CHolman]

When I was stationed in San Diego, I used to race a Super Charged Toyota Tacoma through the dessert down in Mexico and Yuma, AZ. I've alway's been into synthic oil. I used Moble 1 5W-30 from the start with that truck. I starting hearing about Royal Purple and what not on the power block on Spike TV and thought why not try it? I know that my gauges don't lie, My oil temp went down 15 degree's and transmission 30 degree's. I have been using RP since. Friction builds heat and RP is some slick stuff. I'm sure AMSOIL is good to though, I just wanted to share my experiance with RP...

 

[Texas Diesel]

I noticed the same oil temp drop. Didnt see a drop in engine oil temp but saw 15*F drop in the transmission and 20*F drop in the diff.



Royal Purple is definately some slick stuff. I wish I could adequately explain how much smoother shifting my transmissions (NV-5600 & NV-4500 plus the BMW 5 speed) are.



Seeing the difference in smoothness between the other oil and the RP is amazing. Anyone with a rough shifting or hard to get into gear 5 speed needs to consider a lube switch. It took about 10k miles (120k to 130k) to smooth out, now at 175k it shifts like a knife through butter.

 

[MickeyMiller]

Just changed my 6-speeds oil at 43K. Went to RP Syncromax (only took 4. 3 qts, now the 4. 75 I expected). Factory oil (changed at 15K) looked clean, some gray thin sludge in the bottom of the case but everything looks great. BIG GEARS! Does shift easier with the RP Syncromax.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

My experience with Amsoil products have been less than satisfactory.

I'm sure the same can happen with any oil. Maybe sometimes there's a batch that doesn't turn out as designed?



Do any of you guys running RP in their transmission haul heavy? LivinEZ on NW Bombers tried it and 'bout fried the lube: http://www.nwbombers.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15057

 

[Hokey]

I'm sure the same can happen with any oil. Maybe sometimes there's a batch that doesn't turn out as designed?



Do any of you guys running RP in their transmission haul heavy? LivinEZ on NW Bombers tried it and 'bout fried the lube: http://www.nwbombers.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15057

woah.....

Not Good, guess I'll be doing a check on mine asap. Haven't towed anything very heavy. I knew the RP was a little low on viscosity at 100c/212f but, didn't figure I would be any hotter than 130f or so. . Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Texas Diesel]

I'm sure the same can happen with any oil. Maybe sometimes there's a batch that doesn't turn out as designed?



Do any of you guys running RP in their transmission haul heavy? LivinEZ on NW Bombers tried it and 'bout fried the lube: http://www.nwbombers.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15057

Dunnno I have towed some 13k high wind drag stuff with the transmission getting up to 235*F and no problems shifting. The oil always comes out looking like new. I went through 2 5600's due to grinding problems in 50k miles. The 3rd 5600 got changed to RP Synchromax the day I got it home. We worked it hard for 60k more miles and it shifted better and better. I'll stick with it and time will tell I guess.



Here is a picture of the brown goop (jellied OEM lube) that I drained out of one of the failed 5600's, so much for the quality of the OEM oil

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/displayimage.php?&photoid=2213&width=3

Cant get much worse than that.



I just wonder if the brown, smelly stuff is somehow being 'cooked' out of the 5600. Sealer or possible some other component producing it since two different oils (RP and OEM) have drained out brown and smelly? See my pic above of the OEM oil... Sounds very simular to the post on your thread. It seems strange that two different lubes would produce the same result



One thing for sure, I will be watching the hot shifting and will be checking the oil via the dipstick for color change.



You stated the viscosity " Viscosity is only 7. 7@ 100C, compared to 11. 7 for Redline. " What is the viscosity for the OEM stuff?

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Wow that's some nice lookin' crud there Texas LOL



Good question about the OEM viscosity, it would be interesting to find out.



There could be something not quite right with LivinEZ's transmission, but he may have pulled it really hard and run the temps to the stratosphere without knowing it. He grosses over 25k sometims. It came close to 100 degrees in some areas of Washington over Memorial Day.

 

[funkra]

Here is a "SAE TECHNICAL PAPER" dated Oct 1995, you may want to read.



A Synthetic Diesel Engine Oil with Extended

Laboratory Test and Field Service Performance





ABSTRACT



This paper describes the engine test and extended oil drain field performance of new synthetic engine oil technology developed for use in North American low-emission heavy-duty Diesel engines. The resulting formulation utilizes an advanced additive system specifically tailored for synthetic base stocks which exceeds current industry and engine builder targets in critical performance tests. Use of synthetic base stocks allows the formulation of engine oils with a unique combination of performance characteristics, which include meeting SAE 5W-40 viscosity requirements for cold starting benefits while maintaining low volatility loss at high temperature for oil consumption control. In addition to meeting API CG-4, CF-4F, CF-2, CF, SH and EC requirements, this technology has also demonstrated exceptional performance in extended-length Diesel and gasoline engine tests. Furthermore, it has also performed very well in extended service interval field tests.

At drain intervals up to four times those normally recommended, excellent engine wear, deposit protection, and oil consumption control have been consistently demonstrated. Additionally, fuel economy benefits in excess of 4% relative to SAE 15W-40 conventional mineral oils have been documented.



The desire to reduce costs associated with the operation of heavy-duty diesel engines has prompted considerable interest in extending the mileage and/or time between engine and vehicle service intervals. Extended service intervals for engine and other vehicle lubricants offer the potential) for multiple cost benefits. Lower cost for consumable materials (lubricants and filters), reduced labor costs for scheduled maintenance, less out-of service time for engines and/or vehicles, and lower expenses for disposal of used oil and filters are several potential benefits that could be realized by extending service intervals. As operating costs rise, the incentive for fleet operators to extend engine service intervals increases. It is critical, however, that extension of engine service intervals does not negatively impact engine reliability and durability since increased repair costs and engine down-time would rapidly offset cost benefits gained by extending service intervals.



At the same time that engine operators are recognizing the benefits for extending service intervals, diesel engine manufacturers are producing updated emission controlled engines with significantly higher specific power output than the older engines they replace. Therefore, operating conditions for engine oils are likely to be more severe due to potentially increased thermal and load stresses. Engine builders and operators also expect improved durability from modern diesel engines, further increasing the performance demands on engine oil technology. Combining a move to extended oil drain intervals with the introduction of engines with higher power densities and longer service lifetimes increases the challenges for developing engine oils capable of providing the level of protection needed to prevent lubricant related engine problems.

The objective of the work described in this paper was to develop a high performance diesel engine oil with the capacity to provide the maximum level of engine protection at extended oil drain intervals.



There is much more, but very lengthy.



Wayne

amsoilman

Wayne, you clearly have done a great deal more objective research on the subject than most. I have tried to build a spreadsheet which compares Rotella T, Valvoline Premium Blue, Delo and Amsoil based on test results alone. Could not find any hard specs listed on Valvolines website for their diesel products. Rotella lists some specs, but nothing on the Four-Ball Wear Test. The other specs listed by Rotella actually come out in favor of AMSOIL. Numbers are listed below, and are based on AMSOIL Series 3000 Synthetic 5W-30 Heavy-Duty Diesel Oil HDD vs. Shell ROTELLA® T Synthetic 5W-40) . These were all done using the same test standard.



1. Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) Lower percentages mean that an oil is more shear stable and will retain its viscosity better during operation: 170 AMSOIL, 176 Rotella.

2. Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445): 11. 7 AMSOIL, 15. 0 Rotella.

3. Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445): 67. 6 AMSOIL, 90 Rotella.

4. Pour Point °C (ASTM D 97) -51 AMSOIL, -40 Rotella.

5. Flash Point °C (ASTM D 92) 230 AMSOIL, 222 Rotella.



Every one of these favors AMSOIL. Do you have something more detailed than this, that compares all the specs (using the same test standard) and includes the Four Ball Wear Test? Something like that would lay all this conjecture to rest. I really don't favor any one at this point... haven't hit the Cummins recommended 20,000 miles before switching to synthetic. I know what AMSOIL puts out... I just can't find full specs listed for some of the other good oils. None of them list Four Ball Wear Test results that I can find, which in itself might tell us something. Has anyone built a spreadsheet showing side by side comparisons based on hard test data? Thanks!

 

[Texas Diesel]

The data in interesting but real life can be different.



My 98 5speed and the 97 BMW both had Amsoil in them and shifted poorly. I switched them to another high qualty synthetic, both shift MUCH better now. The 5 speed no longer strains to get into Reverse or 1st. The BMW shifts like hot butter.



The 98 5 speed had Amsoil bumper to bumper (I almost didnt buy it because of the Amsoil stickers, but 12V QC's are hard to find). The diff, at 180k miles needs a new ring and pinion, severe wear is shown. Pretty short life for "THE" superior lube. I know many owner/dealers (who make a profit by promoting it) will swear by the stuff but my experience has shown otherwise.

 

[amsoilman]

It's a fact, do the research. All lubricant oil sufferers a breakdown of the molecular chain that gives the oil it's lubricating properties. Synthetic or conventional will suffer the break down of the chains. The only question is how quickly. Triple by-pass whammy whoopy bypass filters are fine, but in the end, when the oil breaks down enough it's starts failing to lubricate properly.



I don't know the relative rate of breakdown, though given some time on the net I'm sure I can find it. Does synthetic break down more slowly? Probably. The question is how much more slowly.

JIM,

With all due respect with your asessment of bypass oil filtration and high quality synthetic oils, my last truck a 1994 CTD, went 150,000 miles on only one oil drain, and I only changed it because I wanted to see how the 5W-30 worked for me. The oil at 105,000 was still in perfect condition. Viscosity was within specs of 13. 07 cst@100 C, and the TBN was still at 9. 24

There were NO abnormal wear metals reported and the additives were still within specs for the oil.



My present truck is a 2003 CTD, and I just had the oil analyzed (20 Nov. 2005) with 45,300 miles on the oil, and 54,000 on the truck. Viscosity is reported as 14. 07 cSt@100C,(which is right in the middle range of a 40 Grade oil) and the TBN is 5. 99. SOOT/SOLIDS is reported as 0. 20 % by weight, and there were no abnormal wear metals indicated.



I would dare say the bypass filter is certainly doing a GOOD job.





Wayne

amsoilman

 

[amsoilman]

The data in interesting but real life can be different.



My 98 5speed and the 97 BMW both had Amsoil in them and shifted poorly. I switched them to another high qualty synthetic, both shift MUCH better now. The 5 speed no longer strains to get into Reverse or 1st. The BMW shifts like hot butter.



The 98 5 speed had Amsoil bumper to bumper (I almost didnt buy it because of the Amsoil stickers, but 12V QC's are hard to find). The diff, at 180k miles needs a new ring and pinion, severe wear is shown. Pretty short life for "THE" superior lube. I know many owner/dealers (who make a profit by promoting it) will swear by the stuff but my experience has shown otherwise.

TEXAS DIESEL,



Which lube did you have in the BMW transmission?



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[LightmanE300]

Numbers are listed below, and are based on AMSOIL Series 3000 Synthetic 5W-30 Heavy-Duty Diesel Oil HDD vs. Shell ROTELLA® T Synthetic 5W-40) . These were all done using the same test standard.



1. Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) Lower percentages mean that an oil is more shear stable and will retain its viscosity better during operation: 170 AMSOIL, 176 Rotella.

2. Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445): 11. 7 AMSOIL, 15. 0 Rotella.

3. Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445): 67. 6 AMSOIL, 90 Rotella.

4. Pour Point °C (ASTM D 97) -51 AMSOIL, -40 Rotella.

5. Flash Point °C (ASTM D 92) 230 AMSOIL, 222 Rotella.



Every one of these favors AMSOIL. Thanks!

I'm not sure how every one of the above data favors amsoil... It is clearly a LOT thinner at operating temp, which is why I would never run a 30 weight. I'm not sure why you compared a 30 vs 40 weight, but a better comparison would have been between oils of the same viscosity. Amsoil has a 5w40 and a 15w40. .



As for the four ball wear test, to me it's a test that Amsoil has decided to use as a marketing tool... while they provide a seemingly solid reason for its use, realistically if that was a true measure of how an oil holds up, the big companies would all list it as a spec as well.

 

[amsoilman]

The other specs listed by Rotella actually come out in favor of AMSOIL. Numbers are listed below, and are based on AMSOIL Series 3000 Synthetic 5W-30 Heavy-Duty Diesel Oil HDD vs. Shell ROTELLA® T Synthetic 5W-40) . These were all done using the same test standard.



1. Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) Lower percentages mean that an oil is more shear stable and will retain its viscosity better during operation: 170 AMSOIL, 176 Rotella.

2. Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445): 11. 7 AMSOIL, 15. 0 Rotella.

3. Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445): 67. 6 AMSOIL, 90 Rotella.

4. Pour Point °C (ASTM D 97) -51 AMSOIL, -40 Rotella.

5. Flash Point °C (ASTM D 92) 230 AMSOIL, 222 Rotella.



Every one of these favors AMSOIL. Do you have something more detailed than this, that compares all the specs (using the same test standard) and includes the Four Ball Wear Test? Something like that would lay all this conjecture to rest. I really don't favor any one at this point... haven't hit the Cummins recommended 20,000 miles before switching to synthetic. I know what AMSOIL puts out... I just can't find full specs listed for some of the other good oils. None of them list Four Ball Wear Test results that I can find, which in itself might tell us something. Has anyone built a spreadsheet showing side by side comparisons based on hard test data? Thanks!

If you are trying to compare the AMSOIL HDD 5W-30 Vs. the Shell Rotella T synthetic 5W-40, the above tests are certainly going to be different, as the AMSOIL HDD is a 5W-30 and the SHELL ROTELLA T is a 5W-40! These factors change with different Vicosities, for instance, the Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445): 11. 7 AMSOIL indicates it meets the requirements for a 30 grade oil. To be considered a 30 grade oil, it has to fall between 9. 30 cSt@100 C and 12. 49 cSt@100 C.



A 40 grade oil such as the Rotella would indicate it meets the requirements of a 40 grade oil, as you list it at "Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445): 15. 0 ". To be considered a 40 grade oil, it has to fall between 12. 50 cSt@100 C and 16. 29 cSt@100 C.



The other things you list above would also be affected due to the two differing Viscosities.



I did respond to your PM.



Reagards,



wayne

amsoilman

 

[amsoilman]

I'm not sure how every one of the above data favors amsoil... It is clearly a LOT thinner at operating temp, which is why I would never run a 30 weight. I'm not sure why you compared a 30 vs 40 weight, but a better comparison would have been between oils of the same viscosity. Amsoil has a 5w40 and a 15w40. .



As for the four ball wear test, to me it's a test that Amsoil has decided to use as a marketing tool... while they provide a seemingly solid reason for its use, realistically if that was a true measure of how an oil holds up, the big companies would all list it as a spec as well.

I agree with you on the comparison of the two different Viscosities above, but on the 4-ball wear test issue, do you actually think the BIG companies are going to use data that does not favor them? They (the BIG companies) do have the ability to use thes same tests, as they are all done using the ASTM standards.





Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Texas Diesel]

TEXAS DIESEL,



Which lube did you have in the BMW transmission?



Wayne

amsoilman

Wayne, the lube was sold by the dealer here in Austin. They have a display of Asmoil products in the parts counter display case. If I remember correctly from the paperwork it was a 75W-90 or 80W-90. The previous owner gave me a 9/10 full bottle that he had bought from the dealer for the bike. Honestly I dont recall and I didnt keep the lube after I made the decision to switch transmission oil brands.

 

[funkra]

I'm not sure how every one of the above data favors amsoil... It is clearly a LOT thinner at operating temp, which is why I would never run a 30 weight. I'm not sure why you compared a 30 vs 40 weight, but a better comparison would have been between oils of the same viscosity. Amsoil has a 5w40 and a 15w40. .



As for the four ball wear test, to me it's a test that Amsoil has decided to use as a marketing tool... while they provide a seemingly solid reason for its use, realistically if that was a true measure of how an oil holds up, the big companies would all list it as a spec as well.

Yes, you are right... I tried to do close comparisons, but my point was really to see if someone had hard test data on these, specific the Four Ball Wear Test from other brands. Besides, Amsoil does NOT make a diesel 5W-40... the 5W-40 they offer is not a heavy duty diesel version, but a European blend. Here's their product line straight from their website:

(TSO) Series 2000 Synthetic 0W-30 Motor Oil

(TRO) Series 2000 Synthetic 20W-50 Motor Oil

(HDD) Series 3000 Synthetic 5W-30 Heavy-Duty Diesel Oil

(XLM) XL 5W-20 Synthetic Motor Oil

(XLF) XL 5W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil

(XLT) XL 10W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil

(XLO) XL 10W-40 Synthetic Motor Oil

(ASL) SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil

(AFL) Synthetic 5W-40 European Motor Oil

(ATM) SAE 10W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil

(AMO) SAE 10W-40 Synthetic High Performance Motor Oil

(ARO) SAE 20W-50 Synthetic High Performance Motor Oil

(ACD) Synthetic 10W-30/SAE 30 Heavy-Duty Diesel Oil

(AHR) SAE 60 Synthetic Racing Oil

(AME) SAE 15W-40 Synthetic Heavy-Duty Diesel and Marine Motor Oil

(PCO) Dual-Base 15W-40 Heavy-Duty Diesel/Gasoline Oil



Also, the only full synthetic oil Rotella makes is a 5W-40. The rest are non-synthetic, single grade, or for gas and diesel motors. Additionally, their 10W-40 is a synthetic BLEND.



Amsoil seems to throw their data out there for everyone to see, but the others you have to dig for, if you can find anything at all. And again, I'd like to see wear tests from the others, since when you get down to it, it's what matters in the end.



Anyhow, thanks for the feedback.

 

[funkra]

Gents, here's something a rep from Royal Purple just emailed me. I was leaning towards Amsoil until I read this...



++++++++++++++++++++



Rod,



We do not currently market a 5W40 instead choosing to market a full synthetic 15W40 that is actually API Licensed, unlike most of the products sold by

Amsoil (the only company listing any 4 ball wear tests - which is not a recognized engine oil test - it was designed by the ASTM to test performance of batch to batch quality of the exact same formulation of oils. ASTM reports that there is no correlation between 4 Ball wear numbers of oils with differing formulations.

Here is a link to our API Licensed oils http://eolcs.api.org/DisplayLicenseInfo.asp?LicenseNo=0777



Here is a link to search for any API Licensed oil - suggest that you search Amsoil - you'll may be surprised that you do not see the Series 2000 and Series 3000 oils that they promote the hardest for diesel applications.

http://eolcs.api.org/



On our website, we list product value for our 15W40 which has an excellent pour point of -44 F (Mobil Delvac 1 5W40 has a pour point of -45 F) so the difference between RP's 15W40 and 5W40 is negligible.



Sulfated ash content, since it is an API Licensed oil has to fall within the API CI-4+ limits. Sulfated Ash content is not a performance spec - and should not be a determining factor in choosing an oil. (although those not in the industry grasp at things to compare and wrongly interpret this physical parameter).

The RP comes in at 1. 2% - 1. 3% versus 1. 35% for Delvac 1.

I've attached a viscosity comparison of RP 15W40 to Mobil Delvac 1 5W40 and there is not significant departure until -20 F or so - and there are very few places in North America that actually experience significant time where ambient temperatures are below -20 F for any length of time.



For those of you north of the border in Canada and Alaska, we do offer a 10W30 Diesel rated API CI-4 product for low temperature operation.



Thanks for your email. '



Cheers,



PS you can find the product data sheet under industrial products on our website.

http://www.royalpurple.com/prodsi/rpmoi.html



David Canitz

Tech Services Manager

Royal Purple Ltd

1 Royal Purple Lane

Porter, TX 77365



++++++++++++++++++++++++++





I checke the API website, and yes, very few AMSOIL products are API certified. Here's the list:



License No Company Name

0995 AMSOIL INC



Brand Name SAE Viscosity Grade Service Category Current Expiration Date

PCO 15W-40 CI-4/SL** August 8, 2006

XL 10W-30 SM/CF* August 8, 2006

XL 10W-40 SM/CF August 8, 2006

XL 5W-20 SM/CF* August 8, 2006

XL 5W-30 SM/CF* August 8, 2006



* Energy Conserving ** CI-4 PLUS



That's very few from there entire product line. Looks like the only product API certified is XL, and no diesel oils are listed at all. Anyone have an idea why this is?

 

[amsoilman]

Gents, here's something a rep from Royal Purple just emailed me. I was leaning towards Amsoil until I read this...



++++++++++++++++++++



Rod,



We do not currently market a 5W40 instead choosing to market a full synthetic 15W40 that is actually API Licensed, unlike most of the products sold by

Amsoil (the only company listing any 4 ball wear tests - which is not a recognized engine oil test - it was designed by the ASTM to test performance of batch to batch quality of the exact same formulation of oils. ASTM reports that there is no correlation between 4 Ball wear numbers of oils with differing formulations.

Here is a link to our API Licensed oils http://eolcs.api.org/DisplayLicenseInfo.asp?LicenseNo=0777



Here is a link to search for any API Licensed oil - suggest that you search Amsoil - you'll may be surprised that you do not see the Series 2000 and Series 3000 oils that they promote the hardest for diesel applications.

http://eolcs.api.org/



On our website, we list product value for our 15W40 which has an excellent pour point of -44 F (Mobil Delvac 1 5W40 has a pour point of -45 F) so the difference between RP's 15W40 and 5W40 is negligible.



Sulfated ash content, since it is an API Licensed oil has to fall within the API CI-4+ limits. Sulfated Ash content is not a performance spec - and should not be a determining factor in choosing an oil. (although those not in the industry grasp at things to compare and wrongly interpret this physical parameter).

The RP comes in at 1. 2% - 1. 3% versus 1. 35% for Delvac 1.

I've attached a viscosity comparison of RP 15W40 to Mobil Delvac 1 5W40 and there is not significant departure until -20 F or so - and there are very few places in North America that actually experience significant time where ambient temperatures are below -20 F for any length of time.



For those of you north of the border in Canada and Alaska, we do offer a 10W30 Diesel rated API CI-4 product for low temperature operation.



Thanks for your email. '



Cheers,



PS you can find the product data sheet under industrial products on our website.

http://www.royalpurple.com/prodsi/rpmoi.html



David Canitz

Tech Services Manager

Royal Purple Ltd

1 Royal Purple Lane

Porter, TX 77365



++++++++++++++++++++++++++





I checke the API website, and yes, very few AMSOIL products are API certified. Here's the list:



License No Company Name

0995 AMSOIL INC



Brand Name SAE Viscosity Grade Service Category Current Expiration Date

PCO 15W-40 CI-4/SL** August 8, 2006

XL 10W-30 SM/CF* August 8, 2006

XL 10W-40 SM/CF August 8, 2006

XL 5W-20 SM/CF* August 8, 2006

XL 5W-30 SM/CF* August 8, 2006



* Energy Conserving ** CI-4 PLUS



That's very few from there entire product line. Looks like the only product API certified is XL, and no diesel oils are listed at all. Anyone have an idea why this is?

To set the record straight, Amsoil does have a Diesel oil that is API licensed, but it is not a full synthetic! I did PM you regarding the licenesing issues.



I will also say this again, as I have said many times over. Do you think a Company that has been in the oil lubrication business for over 33 years would still be in business if thier product line was not high quality? They were also the first to come out with synthetics back in 1972!



Just something to think about.







Regards,



Wayne

amsoilman