Safe to idle for 15-20 minutes at a time?

[TCDiesel]

I wouldn't leave me truck idle in a place with that many shotgun shells around OP what's up with those shells ?




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[KATOOM]

Unless of course....you live in an area that prohibits such a thing.

I dont believe there are any laws or places I know of in the US which prohibits idling your own personal vehicle for any length of time. That said, there may be residential ordinances or HOA regulations for things like excess noise depending on where you live which would prevent long idle times...but I cant comment on that.

I've been asking this same question for almost 2 1/2 years now with no real set answer. I'll leave mine running, high idle, when I have to leave someone in the truck when I go into the store. Usually no more than 15 - 20 minutes.
Mechanics I know tell me "You see semi's setting all night running". Nephew's company has a new fleet (16's - 17's) doing oil field service and they pretty much stay running all day.
Construction company working on our building for the past two years left their new RAM's running pretty much all day in the summer time.
Maybe it's time to call Cummins and play "Ask an Engineer" and see what they say... (LOL)

Yeah, good luck getting Cummins to comment on anything related to this topic. Guaranteed...with the EPA thumbing down on commercial trucking and everything going on with emissions these days, there's no way Cummins will give anyone a pass on "extended idling"...

Along this mentality, years ago I remember watching the mail person drive down my old street delivering mail. There were no street mail boxes so they had to stop the mail car/truck (or whatever that thing is) at every driveway and shut the engine off before walking up to the front door. Now, given the houses are spaced apart like any regular neighborhood, that poor engine was started, stopped, and restarted what looked like at least hundreds of times just to get around that one neighborhood. It was insane and I'm imagining that starter was replaced weekly if not more often since it sounded pretty sick. But the mail carrier was probably following some government regulated protocol stating that the engine must be shut down whenever the person is not in the vehicle.

 

[kthaxton]

I dont believe there are any laws or places I know of in the US which prohibits idling your own personal vehicle for any length of time. That said, there may be residential ordinances or HOA regulations for things like excess noise depending on where you live which would prevent long idle times...but I cant comment on that.

It's actually getting more and more common in areas that have pollution issues. Many cities and possibly counties have ordinances against excessive idling.

 

[KATOOM]

It's actually getting more and more common in areas that have pollution issues. Many cities and possibly counties have ordinances against excessive idling.

Interesting... Not saying you're wrong but do you have anything to link/show or indicate this is happening?

 

[gsbrockman]

Interesting... Not saying you're wrong but do you have anything to link/show or indicate this is happening?

I am not kthaxton.....but on a trip to NYC last week, I saw several signs in the Queens area and downtown NYC stating such.
Additionally......here is a link for you....

https://www1.nyc.gov/nycbusiness/description/idling-regulations

 

[kthaxton]

Interesting... Not saying you're wrong but do you have anything to link/show or indicate this is happening?

Not sure why this is so hard to believe....I hear about in the news all the time, but if I must:
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/documents/CompilationofStateIdlingRegulations.pdf

A quick Google brought this up, but is actually a fairly old document too, as evidenced by the date, but also, at least in the Utah section, there are many more cities that now have these rules than what is listed....but I think this makes the point.

 

[Learjet]

Wyoming’s law against vehicle idling goes back to 1955 and was last updated in 1984. To review, don't crank and go back inside on winter mornings, or there could be a fine involved.

 

[KATOOM]

I am not kthaxton.....but on a trip to NYC last week, I saw several signs in the Queens area and downtown NYC stating such.
Additionally......here is a link for you....

https://www1.nyc.gov/nycbusiness/description/idling-regulations

Not sure why this is so hard to believe....I hear about in the news all the time, but if I must:
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/documents/CompilationofStateIdlingRegulations.pdf

A quick Google brought this up, but is actually a fairly old document too, as evidenced by the date, but also, at least in the Utah section, there are many more cities that now have these rules than what is listed....but I think this makes the point.

Thank you both for the links. And kthaxton you dont have to get pushed out of shape by me asking for proof either. I'm asking because I genuinely want to know for informational reasons, not to be a smart a$$ and I was hoping you could answer something I didnt know. Isnt that was these forums are for?

But also just to point out that within both of those links, they only pertain to commercial and public service vehicles...not the public. I cant speak for what learjet said about Wyoming since I'd have to read their vehicle code regarding.

 

[kthaxton]

Ok, here's another.
http://www.sandyjournal.com/2018/05/07/172653/sandy-passes-new-anti-idling-ordinance

 

[gsbrockman]

Thank you both for the links. And kthaxton you dont have to get pushed out of shape by me asking for proof either. I'm asking because I genuinely want to know for informational reasons, not to be a smart a$$ and I was hoping you could answer something I didnt know. Isnt that was these forums are for?

But also just to point out that within both of those links, they only pertain to commercial and public service vehicles...not the public. I cant speak for what learjet said about Wyoming since I'd have to read their vehicle code regarding.

Not sure where I saw where it was STRICTLY commercial in my link. Yeah....it states certain groups should become familiar with the rules.

The link stated----no person should allow the engine of a motor vehicle to idle for longer than three minutes while parking, standing, or stopping.

 

[KATOOM]

Ok, here's another.
http://www.sandyjournal.com/2018/05/07/172653/sandy-passes-new-anti-idling-ordinance

Well thats a good reason not to move to Sandy...

No, all joking aside, I'd love to read that ordinance if I can find it because based on what the news feed implies there's seemingly more stipulations and holes in what constitutes as a idling "violation" than Swiss cheese. Quoted from the article even: "Council member Zach Robinson, who authored the ordinance, said that parents don’t need to worry about getting ticketed while waiting in their cars to pick up their children from school" What the heck does that even mean??? You can idle all day as long as you're in front of the school? What about someone who has a medical condition? What about other kids in cars or pets? What about all the countless other variables I could list which would give reason for someone to fight their ticket in court...

Why I care so much...? Because when cities and counties make overly demanding laws based on feel good emotions without backing their stats on actual facts but show revenue gains based on their new laws, it no surprisingly leads to other cities and counties to follow suit merely because of the idea of increased revenue.

For instance, I live in a pretty country area but the legislators tried to impose some new air quality controls on the area which would have been implemented in the form of building impact fee's. Well, when the so called air quality reports were released to the public we all found out that they based the test on the air from the middle of the nearby freeway... Uh, clearly no one is living their day to day life in the freeway median.
Nonetheless, the people fought their stupidity and were able to shut down their new source of income.....for awhile at least.

 

[KATOOM]

Not sure where I saw where it was STRICTLY commercial in my link. Yeah....it states certain groups should become familiar with the rules.

The link stated----no person should allow the engine of a motor vehicle to idle for longer than three minutes while parking, standing, or stopping.

It doesnt. You have to look up the law as its written. Some legal websites will show what the law says...

 

[Tuesdak]

@KATOOM Well said.

The entire 'idle laws' and what it applies to is a good discussion by all.

I had also wondered the same and found ignorant reporting as usual like for AZ it would appear to apply to just commercial vehicles - not every motor vehicle. I have seen anti-idle law signs around the state posted that were vague mainly at 7-11/Circle K type places.

 

[gsbrockman]

@KATOOM Well said.

The entire 'idle laws' and what it applies to is a good discussion by all.

I had also wondered the same and found ignorant reporting as usual like for AZ it would appear to apply to just commercial vehicles - not every motor vehicle. I have seen anti-idle law signs around the state posted that were vague mainly at 7-11/Circle K type places.

With that being said......and given some of these idling laws are perhaps several years old.....I wonder how strictly enforced they are for say a RAM 3500-4500-5500 Cab & Chassis truck that is Certified Clean Idle?

 

[KATOOM]

With that being said......and given some of these idling laws are perhaps several years old.....I wonder how strictly enforced they are for say a RAM 3500-4500-5500 Cab & Chassis truck that is Certified Clean Idle?

Thats a great question...

 

[Hippy43]

Yeah, good luck getting Cummins to comment on anything related to this topic. Guaranteed...with the EPA thumbing down on commercial trucking and everything going on with emissions these days, there's no way Cummins will give anyone a pass on "extended idling"...

Along this mentality, years ago I remember watching the mail person drive down my old street delivering mail. There were no street mail boxes so they had to stop the mail car/truck (or whatever that thing is) at every driveway and shut the engine off before walking up to the front door. Now, given the houses are spaced apart like any regular neighborhood, that poor engine was started, stopped, and restarted what looked like at least hundreds of times just to get around that one neighborhood. It was insane and I'm imagining that starter was replaced weekly if not more often since it sounded pretty sick. But the mail carrier was probably following some government regulated protocol stating that the engine must be shut down whenever the person is not in the vehicle.

Figured that with Cummins. Every now and then a person actually catches a tech, engineer or other tech type that will off the record give a straight up answer. Doesn't happen often but it still happens on occasion.
Looking at some of the provided links, it's nice to see Okla doesn't have a state anti-idling "law". There are several cities where they have clean air zones but no over all city ordinances.
Funny that looking at Texas it appears to be summer months only. Go figure.. (LOL)

This is turning into a good discussion on idling and clean air but still nothing definitive on is it good or not for our engines..
I believe that was the original question to start with.

 

[Tuesdak]

This is turning into a good discussion on idling and clean air but still nothing definitive on is it good or not for our engines..
I believe that was the original question to start with.

Let's recap. "Engines" has to include the entire emissions system.

FCA has a idle time "clock" in the ECM to report idle time. Hmmmmm.

TSB's exist regarding bent pushrods due to valve guides gumming up idling in cold weather. This is the only "engine" issue listed I have seen.

High idle is included on automatic equipped trucks that wouldn't have a PTO that would use high idle.

Wet Stacking is a known known.

Cylinder wash down from diesel is known, but, washdown from biodiesel % and biodiesel oil contamination is not well known. Esp affects exhaust stroke injection events on engines without a dedicated exhaust DPF cleaning injector. Do you know if your state has 5% to 20% biodiesel added and what % requires a label at the pump? I can tell you running B99 on a 2008 Duramax with in town deliveries after long drives (550 miles a day total) and nearly no idle time will raise the oil level significantly due to DPF regens and B99 not evaporating during exhaust stroke injection events, rather, B99 is hitting the cylinder walls. Colder temps at idle and Biodiesel's resistance to evaporate vs. #2 Diesel would make this worse. Biodiesel does not evaporate back out of the engine oil like #2 diesel does. UOA doesn't catch Biodiesel except as loss of viscosity when it's really contaminated.

Ice Road truckers has an episode where the DPF plugs while going idle slow on a lake. Drama getting to the other end with engine shut down warnings going off. I would step out of and away from the truck if it was doing a forced regen stuck in the middle of a lake ice road!

Emergency vehicles have a manual regen switch and a regen inhibit switch.

I have posted my experience with the EV engine fan unable to lock up at idle RPM resulting in overheating the condenser and AC system relief valve discharge.

One of the first 6.7's was used on a USPS mail delivery route where the driver never touched the accelerator. I believe one of the many emission recalls covered a change to keep the DPF from plugging under this type of extreme idling.

Again be the "Bus Driver" and turn on high idle when you need to idle the engine for a time.

 

[KATOOM]

FCA has a idle time "clock" in the ECM to report idle time. Hmmmmm

I did not know this..... Disturbing that vehicles are coming out with self monitoring/reporting systems which the consumer has no knowledge of. I find this very deceptive... Kinda like everyone now being informed that your cell phones track your every movement and listen to your conversations while its not in use. At some point you start to question reality and who you can trust.

TSB's exist regarding bent pushrods due to valve guides gumming up idling in cold weather. This is the only "engine" issue listed I have seen.

The only bent push rod case I've heard of from extended idling was an older generation Cummins, whereby the perfect scenario had to take place. Meaning, EXTREMELY cold arctic type weather and the 3 cylinder high idle not engaged. This was an old story too...

Its my understanding that todays diesels incorporate all the systems necessary in order to prevent anything negative effects from extended idling.

 

[Learjet]

With that being said......and given some of these idling laws are perhaps several years old.....I wonder how strictly enforced they are for say a RAM 3500-4500-5500 Cab & Chassis truck that is Certified Clean Idle?

it's not just for pollution, its also a theft and safety issue that these laws are written in some areas...to prevent running vehicles left unattended.

 

[Newsa]

I did not know this..... Disturbing.

We can see our idle time on the EVIC