Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting So, you're looking for advice on your first AR...

[BIGNASTY]

Brother Greg

Don't know if you've seen this Forum but Alex (Boss) has been in it a lot since he got his 6.5 tuned up and shooting like it could, I and others told him he just had to spend time dialing it in load wise, and ive told you about his shooting history.
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/

I have never put much stock in the ballistic charts that are put out by the bullet and powder manufactures as anything more than a guide to START your reloading for WHAT EVER round that it is your playing with. I do use them as a I WONT GO OVER THE MAX LISTED, I think that the people that build weapons and know what pressures they can withstand are far smarter than I. We all know the signs of pressure, not all weapons are the same so whats hot in one may not be hot in another.

IMO I don't think that the printed data is tested as much as some people are led to believe. IMO I think that they use instrumentation to attain the MV and maybe out at 100 yards (if that) the rest is just a mathematical equation to achieve a THOUGHT TO BE bullet speed, energy, and bullet drop at further distances, and probably is pretty close to being the actual thing.

It would take some pretty serious shooting and instruments to get the printed data any other way than a mathematical formula result, not to include the place that the shooting is taking place. It would have to be EXACTLY the same from shot to shot to say unequivocally that the printed info is the Holy Grail of the round.

This being said you can take rounds that are almost identical in Velocity, energy, drop and make a GUESS as to which one is best, I have always believed in, Seeing is Believing. The animals that were hit with the 6.5 made a real impression on me its accurate in an AR based weapon, range was MORE that satisfactory with shots in the 600 yard range. Those two factors would be, what parts were used in the build to attain the accuracy, and the ability of the shooter.

The last one (ability of the shooter) is the one that is the most important in REAL WORLD shooting, anyone can buy a accurate rifle but not everyone is a shooter. Laying a gun on a bench and poking holes in paper at known distances in a somewhat controlled environment is not all that impressive to me, take an open field shot at moving targets at various ranges being guesstimated on the fly by the one pulling the trigger, THAT'S SHOOTING.

So if we are looking at rounds that are ALMOST the same in the real world ALMOST ain't making it, the 243 Win Short maybe!! better but by how much? its surely not going to make a better shooter out of ya, because your shooting one vs the other. We have this very conversation in Hunt camp EVERY YEAR, it gets old to me and I usually go have a better conversation with the livestock. One will talk about the GREATNESS of the 300 WIZZ BANG vs the faster speed of the 7MM BUTT BUSTER the game isn't going to know that it was killed with a bullet that's going drop an inch more and is a 150 FPS slower IMO

DEAD IS DEAD!!

 

[GHarman]

Heres an article for those of you that use the larger cartridges on the AR platform.
GregH
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...-improved-reliability-with-larger-cartridges/

 

[GHarman]

An Update. I have everything necessary to build the 16" carbine upper except the flash suppressor. I did a dry run on the upper receiver to the Criterion barrel assembly and find it to be somewhat loose. Probably chalk that up to tolerances. The fit in the second upper receiver was noticeably tighter. Saving that for the Kreiger HB version.
That observation being stated, I understand about the assembly process for the quick and dirty, quick component change. The problem is that the barrel nut will not remove that slop when tightened. It can and probably does pinch the barrel extension directly in front by the shoulder. MOF there is a slightly smaller diameter relief just perpendicular to the barrel extension shoulder. (Hmmm, this post is worthless without pictures:-laf) So this compression ring pinches the barrel extension behind the shoulder as the shoulder matches the face of the receiver. HOWEVER! Here is where inconsistent harmonics enter into the equation. The barrel extension is able to pivot inside the receiver, very slightly, but movement nevertheless, because it is not completely compressed (supported) the full length of the extension. The result is unexplained fliers in a group! Now, maybe this is just the analysis of an old retired weldor with an over active imagination? Or maybe not? I did some research as to "bedding the barrel extension to the upper receiver". It is commonplace with competition rifles. From bedding compounds, to Blue Loc Tite (slip fit formula) and High temperature RTV. It does make for a more difficult disassembly procedure, but "creates a harmonic oneness with the upper universe":-laf WHOOPS Did I say that?!?!?! Heres some of the reading. BTW, the poster rcw3, is a well known and prolific competition AR builder.
GregH

http://forum.snipershide.com/sniper-hide-gunsmithing/45548-ar-accurizing.html

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=531490

 

[Sticks]

Yes, definitely worthless without pictures. I am trying to envision what you are saying, but I am having difficulty finding that you have movement wit the barrel nut torqued down (x3). Moreover - that you are seeing a difference between the two uppers. They are both Vltor aren't they?

Odd.

 

[GHarman]

Here is a picture showing the undercut perpendicular to the shoulder, on the cylindrical portion of the barrel extension.
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I measured the extension diameter at .999" and the small relief cut at .996" on the Criterion barrel.
Not much, but enough to allow deformed upper receiver face to flow into it.
Steel receivers and barrel shoulders will crush .002"-.004" when fitting a barrel on tight. Not for switch barrel use, of course.
I do not know the properties of 7075 T6 Aluminum forgings.

Today I checked the headspace on the Criterion barrel and assembled the upper and barrel with antisieze on the barrel extension and receiver threads.
It went together with no issues . After complete assembly, I did find that the screw heads on the clamp-on gas block touched the inside of the free floating fore end. I removed the fore end, double checked the screw tightness and beveled the edge of those two screws. Now have a full free floating fore end, indeed! Test fired the upper with the BCM lower. I did not change out the carbine buffer assembly. The Criterion 16" barrel has the mid length gas system. It functioned with Federal 62 Gr. FMJ lead core factory ammo. Still waiting on the flash suppressor. No idea on that one.

My plan is to see how well it shoots, as is. No receiver facing or glue in barrel extension. If it does well? If not, I will break it all down, face the receiver and "glue" the barrel extension into the upper with 620 Loctite.

I will be taking the certification class for NRA Range Safety Officer, in April. It will be a busy month!
Will post a picture when I can get some good weather and daylight.
GregH

 

[Sticks]

Awesome. Finally got one running. Come on spring time.

 

[BIGNASTY]

Awesome. Finally got one running. Come on spring time.

TO HELL WITH SPRING TIME!!! come on Predators !!!! pelt prime time don't last FOREVER!!!

Good for ya " G "

 

[Sticks]

At least you've got something and somewhere. Some of us only have the option of RANGES to shoot at.

I've never done Coyote, let alone Wolf, and have not taken the life of a prairie rat in 20+ years. In Colorado if you live in the city, you have to know a guy, who knows a guy to do tha sort of thing. I don't know any guys.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Gharm!! Glad you got it together!! I'd wager it shoots much better than the Ruger.... I'm not real familiar with the character of T6 aluminum, myself, but being it's something that interests me, I researched it earlier....... It was developed in 1936, secretly by the Japanese company Sumitomo, it's definitely been around a while. It was tested and used extensively, such as in the main frame of the A6 Zero fighter plane thoughout the war in the Pacific..... Learned that this morning!! It's good to have time to read!! I have not, as of yet, found anything on it's specific heat or heat expansion coefficient... which brings to mind, what were the ambient temps when you measured everything?

Regardless, if the tolerance is down to .004, given the hardness of the 7075 and it's tensile strength of well over 60klbs, I highly doubt it will ever flow into the recess..... Remember this is a gas operated rifle, and there is little to no recoil, especially on the muzzle with a flash hider or muzzlebrake.... there should be minimal pressure on the barrel pressing backwards.... JMO.....

I didn't think to mention your free float tube clearances as we've discussed this... I've had that happen, myself..... especially with tactical type forward gas blocks, which I like, with picatinny rails top and bottom.... nothing like assembling it and then realizing the fore end you really want to try out won't go over the gas block, or is too long for the setup..... :-laf

NASTY, I'd have shot a photo, AFTER I shot the wolf..... pelt or not, I don't want anything eating my profits!!

Sticks, that just sucks..... I feel for ya.... I've always got friends that want to come out and shoot, so I do when I have time.... Cows are not very considerate of a calendar, however.....

 

[BIGNASTY]

Gharm!! Glad you got it together!! I'd wager it shoots much better than the Ruger.... I'm not real familiar with the character of T6 aluminum, myself, but being it's something that interests me, I researched it earlier....... It was developed in 1936, secretly by the Japanese company Sumitomo, it's definitely been around a while. It was tested and used extensively, such as in the main frame of the A6 Zero fighter plane thoughout the war in the Pacific..... Learned that this morning!! It's good to have time to read!! I have not, as of yet, found anything on it's specific heat or heat expansion coefficient... which brings to mind, what were the ambient temps when you measured everything?

Regardless, if the tolerance is down to .004, given the hardness of the 7075 and it's tensile strength of well over 60klbs, I highly doubt it will ever flow into the recess..... Remember this is a gas operated rifle, and there is little to no recoil, especially on the muzzle with a flash hider or muzzlebrake.... there should be minimal pressure on the barrel pressing backwards.... JMO.....

I didn't think to mention your free float tube clearances as we've discussed this... I've had that happen, myself..... especially with tactical type forward gas blocks, which I like, with picatinny rails top and bottom.... nothing like assembling it and then realizing the fore end you really want to try out won't go over the gas block, or is too long for the setup..... :-laf

NASTY, I'd have shot a photo, AFTER I shot the wolf..... pelt or not, I don't want anything eating my profits!!

Sticks, that just sucks..... I feel for ya.... I've always got friends that want to come out and shoot, so I do when I have time.... Cows are not very considerate of a calendar, however.....

HH not always in charge of what I shoot, I went as a guest on a hunt with very specific instruction of how, why, when, what to dispatch, these people take violating their requests seriously, I have returned with their good graces and like it that way, as it may be advantages in order to hunt other CONSUMABLE GAME THERE!!

In my backyard!!! just about anything is fair game, we dont shoot the elk or deer on OUR PROPERTY its just us, others may, but we kind of like looking out the sliding glass door and seeing this

 

[SnoKing]

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[GHarman]

NOW, THATS FUNNY!!! ROTF
Hamburger?
GregH

 

[GHarman]

Was thinking hard and heavy about this barrel issue, the last few days!
Frankly, I would rather get another barrel with the money than waste ammo!
It will be a while before I can get to the range, so I ordered a NOVESKE 18" light weight barrel.
Significantly more expensive than the Criterion and 2" longer. Need to keep the weight down so the Ladies in my family will maintain interest!
The future HBAR configuration upper, is for meOo.!
I hope to have this, by next week. The plan is to have the barrels swapped out and the Criterion returned to Brownells for full credit before mid April!
Also ordered a MICOR Defense muzzle brake, twist specific (1-7"), from Brownells. Again, If I do not like it? Back it goes for full refund!

I can dream about shooting a barrel test situation but in all honesty, that free time is not there!
GregH

 

[HHhuntitall]

Yeah, GHarm, I understand..... The year my wife told me she was pregnant the first time, I really had gotten into predator calling. I had pretty good luck, and killed quite a few the first month, in January. Somewhere around June I had lost track, but it was over 300 coyotes and several bobcats (which I usually didn't shoot, depending on where they were). I'm pretty sure I killed over 500 that year in 8 different counties in Texas, two counties in Oklahoma, and one county in Kansas.... I haven't killed that many combined in the eight years since..... Family is a heavy responsibility. Add the costs of two children, buying my Dad's ranch out, and spinning wrenches part-time, I don't have much time left for me. Fortunately for my bloodthirsty side, hog populations have exploded in Texas the last ten years......

You need to make time at least two days a month for yourself..... It helps keep you from getting so burned out, and gives you something to look forward to..... It's not going to hurt anything to take a day off every two weeks to do something for yourself, and it ups the average of your quality of life!!! :-laf

 

[GHarman]

Brother HH!
Absolutely!
GregH

 

[TJJEEPER]

Is there a recommended book on building an AR?
I was up on Sinclair's website this morning and there is no shortage of books but like any "how to" books, some are good and some are just a collection of BS and one sided opinions.

I got hooked with a S&W M&P. Inexpensive but nothing spectacular and not particularly accurate BUT I'm now hooked and ready to build my own. I had/have been shooting a mini-14 but it doesn't hold a candle to the S&W AR for fun.

TIA,
Greg

 

[GHarman]

The S&W is a good place to start! Was considering that choice, early on! But got sidetracked by the "Tacticool" Ruger SR556:-laf
I haven't seen a step/by/step manual. An armorers manual would be the basic assembly/disassembly procedure. There are many other books and just as many sources of information about special methods of assembly, components as well as lots of personal stories.
Its a wade in and get yer feet wet. There is a whole list of videos about assembly procedure's on Youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=AR-15+Assembly+procedures&sm=3
If you are a visual learner, like me! They are lightyears ahead of anything else. However, tuning for accuracy and handpicking your components requires much reading. The links provided by Sticks and several others throughout this thread are some really good sources of parts.
Its all just really a LEGGO set, getting it to shoot accurately, thats the other side of the coin! IMHO, its all about component choice and assembly procedures!
I reckon, we shall see how well this comes togetherOo.!
GregH

 

[Sticks]

Waiting patiently.

 

[BIGNASTY]

Yeah, GHarm, I understand..... The year my wife told me she was pregnant the first time, I really had gotten into predator calling. I had pretty good luck, and killed quite a few the first month, in January. Somewhere around June I had lost track, but it was over 300 coyotes and several bobcats (which I usually didn't shoot, depending on where they were). I'm pretty sure I killed over 500 that year in 8 different counties in Texas, two counties in Oklahoma, and one county in Kansas.... I haven't killed that many combined in the eight years since..... Family is a heavy responsibility. Add the costs of two children, buying my Dad's ranch out, and spinning wrenches part-time, I don't have much time left for me. Fortunately for my bloodthirsty side, hog populations have exploded in Texas the last ten years......

You need to make time at least two days a month for yourself..... It helps keep you from getting so burned out, and gives you something to look forward to..... It's not going to hurt anything to take a day off every two weeks to do something for yourself, and it ups the average of your quality of life!!! :-laf

View attachment 88261

Some strategically placed GREEN stripes and it would look like the red dirt of TEXAS!!

 

[HHhuntitall]

TJJeeper, if you look at Brownell's website, they have many selections... but... also note they have a 100% customer satisfaction guarantee.... if you don't like it, send it back for a refund or exchange!! And if you talk to their tech support, they may can point you in a good starting direction for learning, as well. I'm not sure where to tell you to start... I bought a rifle, tore it apart to see how it worked, then started asking questions of older gunsmithys and avid shooters to help with accuracy and reliability.... Most of my learning is hands on, but I know that's not an option for some people.... Perhaps, if you get a good deal, buying a rifle and going shooting with some guys at a range might prove productive..... Unfortunately, the older crowd of gunsmiths are not too fond of the little black rifle..... They have first-hand bad experiences with them in combat situations, as GHarm has stated, and have stayed away from them..... A lot of experience lost, IMO. I'm glad to see GHarm with one, as I may learn something new!!