2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Something went to hell real quicklike under the truck.

[ToolManTimTaylor]

Keep in mind My truck has NEVER ... EVER had death wobble. It also has NEW(Ish) Quad 4X4 Ball joints, NEW tie rod ends and drag link, Steering stabilizer, DT PROFAB track bar, DSS, and new sway bar end links.



ALL this stuff ranges from as little as 50 miles (Swaybar end links) to 9,000 Miles (Ball Joints).



It started in August on the return trip home from MassDiesel where there is a section of I-95 that has a nasty decreasing radious curve with low storm drains, expansion joints, and bumps galore. All of this AND being in the left lane it happened. I had no choice but to Jab and then stand on the brakes to nosedive the truck to get weight on the front end to get it out of the jersey barrier direction. I crapped a little and figured it was just the right time and place ... whatever.



Yesterday getting on the highway (Flat and smooth mind you) I had the box on and fed into it. I went into the center lane to pass a geezer that was RIPPING down the road at a BLISTERING 35 and out of the blue it was VIOLENT.



I had ZERO control. and started to drift tward the left side of the highway while the shaking got exponentially worse. I just about came to a smoking stop when it subsided. ****** because this is the second time I had it I went to work. On the way home it happened AGAIN and the truck is so parked ONCE AGAIN.



Could bearings be the issue (Hope to god no)? I am yet to jsck it and see what has slop.

 

[WTBurke]

Tim,

I'm alarmed! Anybody but you Dude! I have no idea but, I'm hoping to learn from you! You gave me great information in the years passed and "centering" my front axle made all the difference with left-hand pull but, death-wobble has never been an issue with me. I did all the things you shared with me and my truck is nearly Chevy IFS straight!



You're scaring me!



William

 

[abranz]

Tim, you've got me worried also. My 96 has never done this but I had a 05 do it. I completely lost control of the truck on a bridge well over 300 ft high. I have never sweated so bad, not even playing sports as a young man. I brought it back to the dealership, they traded me out and sent it to the auction with 6000 miles on it! I tried to learn why some trucks do this but the mechanics didn't have a definitive answer. They just get rid of them though the auction.

Tony in Idaho

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Toolman that totally bites. You have too nice of truck to be shaken apart that way Do you think Scott would have any ideas? Maybe have him put it on the lift and give it a close going over. I don't read Death Wobble threads much but could it be a front end alignment issue or camber adjustment? Had that done lately? Good luck with it, hope you get to the bottom of it before more harm is done.

 

[ToolManTimTaylor]

Tim,

I'm alarmed! Anybody but you Dude! I have no idea but, I'm hoping to learn from you! You gave me great information in the years passed and "centering" my front axle made all the difference with left-hand pull but, death-wobble has never been an issue with me. I did all the things you shared with me and my truck is nearly Chevy IFS straight!



You're scaring me!



William

LOL hey no problem Will. Ya know my truck has been awesome for 90,000 miles with "reliable" steering. Not nimble Ferrari type stuff but hey after all it is a Duallie. I am going to get to the bottom of this ... somehow.

Tim, you've got me worried also. I tried to learn why some trucks do this but the mechanics didn't have a definitive answer.

Many of our beloved 5 star *ahem* service centers have techs that only know how to throw parts at a situation until it goes away. Theese trucks require Math thrown at them and manually correct them. (Next post leads deeper into this)

Toolman that totally bites. I don't read Death Wobble threads much but could it be a front end alignment issue or camber adjustment? Had that done lately?

Yeah and I have been thinking on this. The shaking was so violent that it blew the grease out of my tie rod ends (Which is now all over my detailed frame and fenderwells grrrrr).



You know how chopper style motorcycles have excelent highway "ride" characteristics. They obtain this through their seriously drawn out "Rake". When "Raked" out like that you effectively are changing the centerpoint of weight over the axle in relation to their mounting point.



If we look at our axle housings "Lengthwise" we will see that the upper and lower control arm mounting points are pretty much in the same vertical plane. The reason the arms lengths are different is because of the frame mounting points are in different positions due to the arch.



This in effect is like having a wheelbarrow with two legs coming straight out the bottom and having a wheel mounted under the legs. Kinda wobbly eh?



I know this has been covered before in many a post but has anybody been able to "Rake" back the axle (I. E use the cam nuts to crank the top of the axle rearward while moving the bottom forward?) It may eliminate the "Shopping cart" wheel flutter effect.

 

[TSielski]

I can empathize. I had replaced everything (I thought), on my front suspension on my 95 and was having similar disasters with the death wobble. I finally replaced the upper and lower control arms and bushings with DT units and the problem completely disappeared. Has been totally gone for over a year now, and I have TRIED to make it happen again, on patches of road where it would occur like clockwork. Hope you get it sorted out.



tim

 

[Silver_Ram]

If all of the parts you listed first are still tight, check your shocks. I had a set of Ranchos on the front that got weak & had a couple of wobble episodes. Exchanged the shocks & nothing since.

 

[DCreed]

I have read on other threads it is a camber issue and to give it all you can.

 

[EBung]

I have read on other threads it is a camber issue and to give it all you can.

Control arms are all that is left it looks like. Most alignment shops dont pay much attention to where the caster is in the range of spec. I think the spec is like 1. 5+ to 3. 5+ which is a huge range. Should be more like 3 to 3. 5 + IMO. DCreed I think you meant caster rather than camber.

 

[PSU-CE]

How are your front tires? After I put on my Luke's link mine still had a minor issue until I changed tires. Granted the tires were pretty well worn, but you never know. Do you have a set you can swap on to try?

 

[jkalchik]

I have read on other threads it is a camber issue and to give it all you can.

Aside from putting in offset balljoints, how do you propose to change *CAMBER* on a solid axle?

Toolman, you're describing caster. This is really not news.

My Jeep Cherokee also has a front coil suspension, pretty much the little brother of a CTD's front suspension (D30 vs. D60. ) The magic caster numbers are around 5 degrees. The problem with a lifted XJ is that the operating angle at the front pinion u-joint will be more important that caster. If you don't address the u-joint angle, you'll end up with pretty nasty vibrations all the time.

 

[paulb]

I had started to develop a "death wobble" in the shutdown area at the end of the track. A lot of tracks have a fairly rough shutdown area, and if I got on the brakes or even off the throttle at the same time I hit a bump, it would start into the death wobble (at 120mph). It first started in the left front and then moved to both fronts. What fixed it for me was changing the front shocks. I put on the Rancho 9000XL's and I have not had a problem since. I set them as stiff as they will go. This was in my 05. There wasn't anything visibly wrong, with the shocks I took off.



I know this is not exactly the same problem you're having, but I thought I would put in my . 02 worth...



Paul

 

[ToolManTimTaylor]

I have read on other threads it is a camber issue and to give it all you can.

You mean Caster

Aside from putting in offset balljoints, how do you propose to change *CAMBER* on a solid axle?



Toolman, you're describing caster. This is really not news.

Yeah I know I am describing Caster, My posts usually are made in layman's terms to get the most input from all members. My thing is with offset balljoints is the camber angle is dead on for a Duallie. Being the bearing loading on the axle is dead-over-centerline, I wouldn't change a thing. But wouldn't Offset Balljoints add just one more "link" in the chain? Then again being your jeep gets punnished off road that is an awesome test bed and I assume no issues.

How are your front tires? After I put on my Luke's link mine still had a minor issue until I changed tires?

Yeah I still hate my tires. they show the typical duallie eat the daylights out of the tread but they are ehhhhhhhh ewkaye. I have tried lukes before on all my rod ends and links and they wore on me quickly. really wasn't a fan.

If all of the parts you listed first are still tight, check your shocks. I had a set of Ranchos on the front that got weak & had a couple of wobble episodes. Exchanged the shocks & nothing since.

Honestly I am looking to do a NEW set of 5200 Bilsteins on the truck. I have a set on there now that have 70K on them and I am sure are getting weak. That and a DUAL skyjacker steering stabilizer aughta buy me some slab of safety.

Control arms are all that is left it looks like. Most alignment shops dont pay much attention to where the caster is in the range of spec. I think the spec is like 1. 5+ to 3. 5+ which is a huge range. Should be more like 3 to 3. 5 + IMO.

Many shops just see a duallie and do toe in- out. I hadmy alighnment guy do specs that were on the TDR here a while back. I seem to think one spec was 3. 7 which I think would be too far for the spring perch to be even with the spring.

 

[jkalchik]

Yeah I know I am describing Caster, My posts usually are made in layman's terms to get the most input from all members. My thing is with offset balljoints is the camber angle is dead on for a Duallie. Being the bearing loading on the axle is dead-over-centerline, I wouldn't change a thing. But wouldn't Offset Balljoints add just one more "link" in the chain? Then again being your jeep gets punnished off road that is an awesome test bed and I assume no issues.

I *WISH* my XJ got punished off-road more often. And I missed the annual club run out to Moab for the 5th straight year.



I haven't looked closely at balljoints for a D60, yet. I do have to look over my front end before the snow flies. Even though it'd be more money, I'd almost rather fix failing unit bearings that replace balljoints (probably with something like the EMS Offroad lockout kit. )

 

[EBung]

You could just mark your eccentrics where they are now then adjust for more caster see if you still get death wobble or not and go from there.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Caster, camber, I get 'em mixed up too.

I recall Sam Meshulam was telling me to crank the caster adjusters as far as they will go, but I'd go with EBung's suggestion and mark where they're at now then max it out and see if that helps.

 

[ToolManTimTaylor]

I missed the annual club run out to Moab for the 5th straight year.

MMMmmmmmm Moab *drool Slickrock and fun stuff

I finally replaced the upper and lower control arms and bushings with DT units and the problem completely disappeared.

I am SO thinking this route. But if I am going this way . . all new Bilsteins and dual stabilizer and PSC box are going in. Then again if I am going that route why not throw dual shock setup at it too Hmmm A Pink Floyd song is coming into the background here ... . Oh yeah ... Money! :{ :{



Maybee the adjustments first and if so then arms and shocks . . but then if I am gonna do that then I . . aww nevermind it is late :{

 

[jkalchik]

MMMmmmmmm Moab *drool Slickrock and fun stuff

Okay, I'll be a real meanie.....



#ad




:-laf



5 years ago, last trip to Moab with my Heep.

 

[WTBurke]

I was lucky enough to have had Don Thuren install my track-bar at his shop. My lift presented an additional problem but, Don did what needed to be done in order for the job to be correct. In speaking with him I learned a lot about the subtle details.



Don explained "CASTER" in a funny way.



Going to the grocery store we have all had the "cart" with the front wheels that would "flibber" back-and-forth in a wild fashion. (I always dump that cart and get a different one) This is a "lack" of proper caster.



In an extreme example when we look at a Harley Davidson that has been "chopped" and the front wheel is kicked-out forward to an extreme degree. Now... riding a "chopper" (I never have) they go straight down the road real sweet but... . turning is a different skill. When you turn one of those bad-boys (having extreme positive caster) the rider has the skill to handle this. The bike wants to "fall over" and the handle-bars won't return to "center" after the turn is complete.



Each CTD is different... Don told me to "note" where I was starting on the little "degreed arch" where our control arms attach to the front axle. Note, they both have to be in the same relative location!



(Factory morons will "twist" your axle to make up for "the less than accurate" tolerances our CTD's have for setting the spec's on our axles to begin with)



By the way... every 2nd Gen truck that I've looked at that has never been touched is messed up! I'm talking factory straight... no lift or any modification.



A "lifted" truck will have major "centering" issues until a "proper track-bar" is obtained and installed. (THANK YOU TIM... you put me "straight" on this 3 years ago)



Now here is what "Don Thuren" told me... . dial up positive CASTER a little at a time. Drive your truck... feel it... did it improve going straight? Dial up a little more... did it make a difference? If not, than you have hit the limit of the total geometry. IF, YOU go WAY too much... then your steering wheel will not return to center after negotiating a "turn". ( You chopperized your CTD)



I've watched "bikers" rassle their extreme choppers while trying to park them at a curb... you know... "the back-in-step" method, so every bike is lined up infront of the local "biker bar"... and it looks cool! BUT, watch these guys handle "extreme CASTER" they deal with it because it is what it is!



You see... I was always afraid to touch any of this stuff because I thought you had to have all kinds of fancy equipment. Note so... at least for CASTER.

Don assured me CASTER is a custom aspect of each individual truck. It is noted that "extreme CASTER" is hard on the front-end components because we are kicking the axle forward. (Take a look at the bearing forces being applied to a chopped Harley where the steering attaches to the front frame of the bike WOW!)



I messed with mine a "little" at a time and I do have results. My truck is nearly "stupid lifted" with 37's and it has road manors that is nearly "Chevy IFS straight". Guys have driven my truck... and they get woodies when they do because they have all said, "Dude. . my truck is flat stock and it don't drive as sweet as this".



So... we get back to this thing of "death-wobble"... I'm guessing it may not be.

Perhaps... it's "flibber-flibber" (lack of technical term) due to the lack of a little increase in CASTER?



Tim... you're to anal to have component wear and with all the cool stuff you have done to your front-end to tame these "hotch-kiss live axle" configurations I can't imagine you have missed anything.



Back in the year of 1870 when "buck-boards" were the rage and being drawn by horses the front "axle configuration" is the same thing we have on our beloved CTD's. It hasn't changed much except for the components material. (Geeese... we drive machines that are as arrow-dynamic as a brick with a front axel arraingment from days-gone-by) I love this oversized pig! She ain't graceful but, she'll kick a**!



Anyhow... . I had to put a little humor into this "most serious" discussion and share my thoughts. I have found the "manors" in my truck after Tim the Tool Man taught me about "axel centering" and Don Thuren provided the outstanding component (and work) along with his knowledge regarding "live axels" and CASTER finesse.



Perhaps it is ONLY "flibber" and not "wobble"... damn... we sure talk technical here on the TDR!



Humbly

William

 

[Signal73]

tim have you got under there to see if anything is sloppy? start small work your way up.