Suncoast/ATS/DTT

[Snow man]

Stakeman,I have never tried an ATS transmission,or even a BD,Tell me this,if both ATS and DTT use the same amount of clutches in 3rd gear,and those clutches are the same diameter,and contain the same amount/type of fricton material. If so then a pressure check can verify what I said. Easy enough,whoevers trans has the higher pressures at the 3rd gr drum,pushing the apply piston will always hold more torque. I do know at DTT sealing of the internal leaks has been a priority,this is so they can get the maximum pressure to the clutches. BTW I never said whos' 3rd gear was stronger,remember I've never had an ATS trans. ( I said to guess).

 

[Strick-9]

RRausch,



I'm replying to the 13% increased surface area comments from above.



DTT was testing apply pressure in the converter over 3 years ago. Since then they've been designing products to increase that pressure. That's what makes the clutch stronger, not the increased surface area.



I talked to Steve from BD about a year ago about TC apply pressure. He had just finished testing and found some serious problems as well. In fact, he knew the numbers off the top of his head because they were so astonishing to him. Oddly enough, they were the same numbers that Bill had found a few years earlier (within 5 psi). Although they were about 2 years behind Bill, they were definately ahead of the rest of the gang and moving in the right direction.



Given equal VB pressure, DTT has higher TC apply pressure than anyone else.



-Chris

 

[csutton7]

I had 676. 4 hp with "NO" lockup device--just straight DTT convertor, valve body and cryo'd output shaft--and some "wood" in the back-he,he--DTT holds plainly put--my t/c and v/b were set up for 275-300 hp when I installed them in 2000 and last year(May Madness) I hit that 676hp number-along with about 25-30 sled pulls--transmission is still alive although she's nearing the end of her life in my truck-I think I could get at least another 6 mos out of her if I didn't sled pull, race or dyno--but that's no fun so time for the top of the line DTT upgrade --I don't believe there's another company who can claim this ---chris

 

[Mtngoat]

Believe it or not, I am learning a lot from this thread about these transmissions in general. I would like to know more. Can someone point me to the ORIGINAL threads that started these "discussions?" I would like to see more history on this. I did a search and am unsure what to look for. Trannys sure have brought out the passions in people!!! Thanks!!



Robin

 

[RADdodge]

Mtngoat – unfortunately, some of the “best” threads were deleted (at least one anyway). But if you do a search on “Bill Kondolay” you should find what you’re looking for (hint, look at the threads with 1000+ views, they will usually have a title about some transmission topic).



P. S. Search as user name.

 

[RADdodge]

Re: convertor

Originally posted by jimk

Stefan I have a question about the DDT converters. First I have a stock transmission so as not to be considered a flag waver. At what rpm can the DDT converter be locked up, and hold. How do you guy rate the percentage of efficiency and at what rpm? Do you have to use a torque saver to keep the converter from slipping in lock up? Can you go into 4 gear, lock up the converter and push the throttle to the floor with a load at 1600 or 1700? Is the converter made to hold peak hp or peak torque?

My fathers stock 160 hp auto in the first generation truck twisted the out put shaft in the splines so what is different now to make it better? His truck was stock hp. He did not drag race or sled pull either.

When I pull my trailer and wont to tow with 3. 54 gears in a 95 dodge auto that I have, the biggest thing to me is trying to tow at 62 or 63. To fast in third and too slow for overdrive. The overdrive seems taller than the NV4500. How do the guys that wont to tow at that speed deal with that . I have enough load as not wonting to go any faster.

thanks for any information Jim

I was hoping Stefan would answer your question. I am only qualified to repeat (as best as I remember) what I was told.



After the upgrade, the lowest rpm under load is at peak torque. I believe that is around 1750 rpm. I don’t know if this applies to stock or not. And I think this in view of longevity, not performance.



Additionally, I used a spreadsheet to calculate the rpm/speed that my gear ratio would give were I to change the wheel/tire size. It worked well for me. I ordered the truck with 4. 10 and planned to go to the 19. 5/285 wheel/tire combo. Now I pull up grades down to 62mph in overdrive, and when I down shift (for slow pokes) to 3rd, I’m approximately at peak hp. So I dealt with it by changing the wheels.

 

[StakeMan]

Originally posted by Strick-9



If you remember way back to the thread that got Bill Kondolay kicked off of this site. He asked Clint of ATS what torque converter apply pressures and release pressures were.



Clint didn't have an answer. He dodged the question entirely. He assumed that it was equal to line pressure because that's what it says in the service manual, but apparently had never actually tested it.



It was a simple question and required a simple answer that Clint couldn't produce. That's what you're missing in your formula.

Here is Clint Cannons reply to Bill Kondolay's question.

Originally posted by CCannon



Bill

Please tell me what you are after here. Pressure is a direct relation to volume flow. In this converter and any other converter oil is fed into the converter.



In fluid coupling mode, Oil volume is fed down the input shaft, between the piston and the cover then to the impeller/turbine section. When the oil passes through the clutch plates all the clutch plates are surrounded by the same oil, this means the clutch plates are not influenced by a pressure differential because they are all exposed to the same pressure. Any object in the pressurized vessel will not be influenced as long as the volume of oil is not allowed to escape to a lower pressure area. Loosing oil volume through a clutch plate (Piece of steel with friction bonded to it) would not be possible in my mind.



This is not a difficult theory to under stand. You said we are defying the laws of physics. Are we, or do we understand the laws of physics.

I believe the proper term would be balance oil.



When Clint first got the Duramax I remember there being several pressure gauges connected to the Allison transmission. Pressure tests are apart of the R&D work.

Originally posted by Strick-9



That's what makes the clutch stronger, not the increased surface area.

Then why add more clutches to a clutch pack?

Originally posted by Strick-9



Given equal VB pressure, DTT has higher TC apply pressure than anyone else.

Of course DTT has higher line pressure. Thats the only way to make a single clutch hold more torque.

 

[Jetpilot]

Ok heres the scoop on my truck's shifting/locking sequence. The truck shifts with the same pattern as a stock truck does. It goes 1-2-3-4 and then the TC locks once in OD. To me when the TC locks in my truck isn't really an issue because the stator is so efficient the difference is very slight.



Hope this answers everyones question,



Doug

 

[Steve Roseman]

I've been debating whether to throw a question into this thread or to start a whole new topic. I guess I'll throw it in and see what comes out.

I have about the same dilemna jimk has, 3. 54 gears and speed limits . I understand most any aftermarket transmission I purchase from a reputable vendor will have a TC clutch that can handle more power than I'm going to be able to throw at it. My problem is, I want to know how the whole package works. People could assume the quality of a transmission depends soley on the TC clutch by reading some of these threads, but I realize that's not so.

I can run 60mph in OD locked up at about 1,700 rpm, no problem on flat ground or empty on grades. When pulling a load on grades at this speed I can slip my converter clutch. Shutting OD off I could pull a house and not worry about slipping the TC clutch, but that's around 2,400 rpm. For simple economics and to avoid fatigue, I would rather run a lower rpm. If I had a TC clutch that would hold at 1,700 rpm, egt's would become a problem. I don't want to make a $2,500 investment in wheels and tires that would render my overdrive useless and turn my truck into a sissy off the line.

What I want to know is, how many of you have towed with the TC clutch unlocked? If I unlock my TC clutch 60mph turns about 2,000 rpm. With my old BD "low stall" converter I can do this but will generate heat during warm weather. I realize the lack of efficiency with the old milled stator design at those rpms. I would like to have honest input from those who have done this pulling a load on a regular basis.

Please, no cheerleaders. If you just think your brand could do it but haven't tried it, you'll be wasting my time and yours.



Thanks,

Steve

 

[GLASMITHS]

Unlocked Torque Converter

Steve,



I'm your man. I pull a 16. 5K 5er and at times with a 5X8 Wells Cargo trailer behind it . That is the first thing that gets downshifted is the t/c. It is only about 125 rpm different, but is enough to keep me from having to downshift to 2nd. We are talking 6-7% grades, 6-7 miles long. 3rd direct, unlocked. No problem with heat.



As Jetpilot just posted above, there isn't a lot of difference in locked and unlocked; except, if you stay locked and bog it you are hurting EVERYTHING. You should never pull heavy below 2000 rpm. If the noise bothers you, get some ear muffs.



I also had the BD milled stator t/c before my upgrade. At 2600 you are just out of power. I thought about that today, and decided , 1. to scare *** out of my wife and 2. to see if it was much better. So I run up to 2600 in 3rd direct (od off) punched the button and then punched the throttle. Yeah, she screamed



You can ask any other question - or you can pm me.





george

 

[Steve Roseman]

Thank You George,

I don't like to pull heavy below 2,000 rpm, that's what I was getting at. 2,000 rpm is my sweet spot with minimal noise. I don't pull near as heavy as you do anyway.

I can run 70 mph with overdrive off but don't like to. I just like the flexibility of something (efficient) in between overdrive locked and drive locked.

 

[Strick-9]

Stakeman,



Thanks for digging that up for me.



Bill asked what apply and release pressures where. Then ATS started the song and dance routine. Instead of answering the question because they didn't know the answer they started describing which direction flow travels through the converter.



That still cracks me up today.



We can all read the service manual to find that out the direction of fluid flow. Bill just asked the quesiton to see if Clint had done the test or even knew HOW to test torque converter apply pressure. And we all got the answer we expected.



But I realize that ATS isn't just sitting around on their hands. They are actually working on constantly improving their products. Heck, they've redesigned the tripleloc since those days.



So, maybe you all should call Clint today and have him explain to you how to test TC apply pressure.



Cheers,

Chris

 

[StakeMan]

Strick-9,



You assume a lot of things from Clints answer.



I noticed that this post was never answered in the same thread you speak of. .

Originally posted by TommyTurbosaurus



Chris, let me clarify what you stated about pressure: Pressure is not restriction to flow. It's the Product of restriction to flow. I'm pretty sure that is what you meant, but just wanted to clarify the point. I'm also sure that the guy that did the hydraulic design in these transmissions is in the nut-house... . or should be.



Let me qualify my thoughts: I am not an expert. I have the service manual in front of me, and as you stated, the hydraulic schematics are flawed, probably to confuse the dur***x designers, and other pedestrians. I could be quite mistaken in my conjecture, but humor me.



*** If the schematics are more incorrect than I perceive, then all bets are OFF! ***



If you have a service manual, follow along as I dig myself deeper into the quagmire..... If you don't have a manual, please be patient.



As I see it, on the fourth gear-lockup-not-applied schematic, converter lube pressure appears to be sourced from the regulator valve just above the torque converter illustration. lube pressure fluid flows into the middle chamber of the L/U switch valve, out the bottom and left to the torque converter front side, and elsewhere.



(If the fluid flows into the converter in front of the lockup clutch, it would tend to hold the clutch disk off the front cover. It wouldn't be pressure so much as just the flow holding it off. Assuming that's the way it works... . interesting!)



The fluid in the torque converter appears to flow out the right-side (or rear) of the converter to the bottom of the left-hand chamber of the L/U switch valve, then on to the cooler and to lubrication, whatever that is.



Now refer to the fourth gear-lockup applied diagram. When the lockup solenoid is activated, line pressure is applied to the left end of the lockup valve, and moves it to the right. The middle chamber of the lockup valve allows line pressure to be applied the the left end of the L/U switch valve, which moves right and shuts off the lube pressure from the torque converter routing it directly to the cooler and to lubrication circuits. It also applies line pressure to the torque converter back side through the same circuit that transferred the lube pressure out of the converter when it was unlocked. I guess this is how the flow reversal occurs. Now the diagram gets murky. When the L/U switch valve is in the right-hand position, lube pressure appears to be diverted through a hydraulic restrictor (just above the L/U switch valve in the schematic) and into a third chamber in the L/U switch valve which ports the restricted lube pressure to the torque converter front side, and the front clutch lubrication. The restrictor is going to limit the lube pressure because of its resistance to flow. The converter now has a pressure differential inside. Line pressure 95-130psi) is being applied behind the lockup clutch, and there is reduced lube pressure (somewhat lower than 5-60psi because of the restrictor) in front of the lockup clutch. The piston is going to try to get to the space of lower pressure, and will be forced toward the converter front housing by the line pressure.



It seems logical.



Oh yeah. The holes in the forward clutch housing photo are there to allow the entrained oil (probably that pesky lubrication oil) in the clutch pack to escape, giving a quicker apply.



SBC, (Peter?) Yes, I believe I've heard marcel mentioned in regard to auto transmission clutch packs. Good point. Thanks for the reminder!



I'm gonna be playing airplanes for the weekend, starting at 6AM tomorrow so I'll let you guys duke it out from here. There's a great deal to be learned here, and it's going to be fun to read the posts when I get back. Have a good weekend!

 

[HeberRam]

Who's better?

Stakeman... I've stayed away from this tread because I have as you know a manual 6-sp clutch from South Bend. However, saying that, If I were to go to an automatic, I would probably go with DTT. The only reason is that they have the "cooooolest" shirts. Both companies are quality and I know both parties. Either one will take care of you and you should stick with one, along with your future up-grades, this will save you money in the long run.



The only reason I bought a Dodge was the cup holders! It is fortunate that there are companies like ATS, DTT, & BD that are involved in Diesel up-grades, which allows us an opportunity to select which we feel is best and keep the others on its toes.



Steve











P. S. If there are any other transmission companies out there that would like me to evaluate there product, my shirt size is XL... .

 

[ATSDiesel]

I want to publicly thank Steve (moderator) for him doing a great job with this particular post.



After spending a few days making sure I had all the information in my hands, I had to make the decision on what and how to address all the concerns and questions.

What I have decided to do, instead of posting all the information for 'public entertainment', I am taking this to Private Email.

I will forward all the information I have directly to Bill G, himself, and he can do with it what he feels best.

Having contacted and spoken to Hemlock, checking all fax records and all UPS tracking records and signatures, this is the best decision for this unfortunate incident.



I will just say, I understand as to the frustrations Bill G was feeling. With all the documentation I have, I know, exactly what happened. There were some major communication problems, that were completely out of ATS's control and had no knowledge as to what was being told to Bill G.



I would ask if there is anyone out there, going through what Bill G. has gone through, and are being told that your order is taking more that a few days to process, PLEASE contact ATS directly and ask for me. Our toll free number is 1-800-949-6002. Don't hesitate to use this number, ATS needs to know of potential Dealer/Installer issues.



Thanks to all ATS supporters out there. You are greatly appreciated.



Ranee Elder-Cannon ATS Diesel Performance

.

 

[jimk]

Re: convertor

Originally posted by jimk

Stefan I have a question about the DDT converters. First I have a stock transmission so as not to be considered a flag waver. At what rpm can the DDT converter be locked up, and hold. How do you guy rate the percentage of efficiency and at what rpm? Do you have to use a torque saver to keep the converter from slipping in lock up? Can you go into 4 gear, lock up the converter and push the throttle to the floor with a load at 1600 or 1700? Is the converter made to hold peak hp or peak torque?

My fathers stock 160 hp auto in the first generation truck twisted the out put shaft in the splines so what is different now to make it better? His truck was stock hp. He did not drag race or sled pull either.

When I pull my trailer and wont to tow with 3. 54 gears in a 95 dodge auto that I have, the biggest thing to me is trying to tow at 62 or 63. To fast in third and too slow for overdrive. The overdrive seems taller than the NV4500. How do the guys that wont to tow at that speed deal with that . I have enough load as not wonting to go any faster.

thanks for any information Jim

I am only trying to ask some thing that I can use to help me decide on the type on converter to use if I decide to stay with a automatic. A couple of other things also. The oil pressure to hold a huge amount hp may not be what I wont as I wont a transmission that will go for a 100K. Higher pressure is good but not extreme. I do wont a transmission that might hold 400 hp but the pressure to hold hp way beyond that MAY BE harder on sealing rings. HP Diesel engines can use very tight converters and run in fluid coupling. I don't think that a tight convertor would be great for me as it would just make it a dog. One last thing the reason not to tow below 1750 is weak overdrive unit or the converter or some other reason. I don't usually have exhaust temps problems. I wont to use the lock up when towing not just fluid couping. I am willing to listen to any ideas. jimk

 

[Hummin Cummins]

First post for me on this thread... LOL



I'm in the same boat as you jimk. I've made all the phone calls, did all the talking, still am undecided.



I like to tow in OD 65 mph is plenty fast enough for me. The idea of camping is to relax. To keep the 1750 rpm in my truck im running at least 65 maybe closer to 70 with my 285 tires. I cant stand to scream along in third with the pedal smashed tryin to maintain 60. I just want a good converter/transmission that I can tow with without abusing my engine with high rpms. The horsepower thing is not an issue for me. Mine has plenty of power to get me in trouble already. Guess I shoulda bought a standard, huh?



Chris

 

[jimk]

convertor

Originally posted by Hummin Cummins

First post for me on this thread... LOL



I'm in the same boat as you jimk. I've made all the phone calls, did all the talking, still am undecided.



I like to tow in OD 65 mph is plenty fast enough for me. The idea of camping is to relax. To keep the 1750 rpm in my truck im running at least 65 maybe closer to 70 with my 285 tires. I cant stand to scream along in third with the pedal smashed tryin to maintain 60. I just want a good converter/transmission that I can tow with without abusing my engine with high rpms. The horsepower thing is not an issue for me. Mine has plenty of power to get me in trouble already. Guess I shoulda bought a standard, huh?



Chris

Chris If you ever get an answer, pm as I wont to know what it is thanks Jimk

 

[pwr2tow]

jimK and hummin cummins,

I tow at those speeds all the time with whats listed in my signature.



Transmission pressures are relavent to throttle position, the more you push down on the throttle the more line pressure the transmission gets. BD makes a device called the pressure lock that gives the transmission full pressures no matter what throttle position is as long as the TC is locked up, this helps keep the TC from slipping and helps keep the heat down within the transmission. With this device you can also make a home made mystery switch from a toggle switch that will keep the TC locked until you unlock it with the switch, if you want to do this automatically at set speeds then you could also buy the auto loc from BD or just about every company makes an auto loc they just call it by a different name.



Ron

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

First, Chris wasn't called a troll by Stakeman (the only use of the term troll was by Stefan and Glasmiths) - what he said was:

So you have owned and used all the different trannies on the market, or reverse engineered them all? Or are you just trying to bait someone into a retaliatory reply?

Which seems like a valid question to me after Chris stated:

With the higher base and top end pressures DTT runs,along with the new 2nd servo,and the many other things that go into a DTT trans to reduce leakage,guess who's third gear (and entire trans) is stronger?

and Chris would be fully in his rights to respond to that and would not get "whacked" in any way as long as he didn't come out guns blazing. He probably could have dropped the second part of that but if we are going to start deleting that then we might as well disallow any posting about auto trannies at all. There is a thing called tact which unforetunately is sorely missing in many transmission threads. It is possible to disagree with someone and discuss things without fighting over it, resorting to name calling, etc. As a matter of fact it happens on this site nearly every day on almost every topic with the exception of automatic trannies and a couple of others (but none are as guaranteed to go out of hand as auto transmission posts for some reason). Fuel pumps for 24v trucks are a great example - there are many people that have vastly different ideas on their solution, etc - but you NEVER see a fight even 1/100th of what happens over auto trannies for some reason.



You should try being in my shoes! Any moderating that is done on auto trannies on either side of an argument is seen as wrong by that side and that I am biased towards the other side. Even though in most cases moderating has been done on both sides on the thread in question and several times strikes have been given out to both sides of an argument - yet both sides feel that I'm biased towards the other one. The funniest thing is that my chosen transmission vendor is New Venture - and I have no bias either way towards any auto supplier because I'm not interested in them!



-Steve St. Laurent

Lead Moderator



Edit: I was informed that the term troll was in fact used. Now that I think about it I do remember something like that - which I had already removed. As many posts as I've had to delete from these posts lately I'm not too surprised that I forgot.