Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Take your plate out!!!!!!!

[Cummins Corvette]

Originally posted by Brandon

chris you are just mad because you couldnt afford a plate after your $10,000 B1 turbo... ... ... so you went with the least expensive avenue for fuel plates... .







I didnt care to get in the middle of this but I couldnt resist the temptation

That is a good conclusion! lol I have sold the #6 but I still have this worthless #4 sitting here. What a waste. I can see having a plate to controll egt, but that is about it. I'm going to break the record for the "small" p pump. hehehe

 

[Strick-9]

I've witnessed 423HP from a 175 hp pump on a dynojet.



After a little more tweaking, that was increased to 446HP.



This was with bone stock 370 injectors and <19mm of rack. With all your newfound knowledge on pumps and rack travel, I'd like to challenge you to beat that. Good luck!



-Chris

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Other Chris- have you reached any conclusions as to weather the 913 has much of an advantage over the "smaller pumps"?

 

[Don M]

This is still going? The pin could shear and cause damage. Pretty simple and straight forward to me. Use a camplate. DUH!!!!



The 913/887 has advance built into the plungers. This is good.

The reasons have been hashed over time and again. The 913/887 is by far the best bet of all the Dodge/Cummins pumps.

DUH!!! again.



Increased rack travel over 18-19mm is not for all combos of parts to make power. Why do these topics always come back up after they have been hashed and hashed?



Joe Donnelly has always told us that he has a stock fueling area in his pump. No modified plugs in the front. No special delivery valves. No removal of camplates, Less than 21mm's of rack travel, and a tight AFC spring! He made it to 633HP with a 913/887 pump. Why on earth would we want to chase after any modifications in these areas until we make it to at least 600HP with what we have? Getting to high HP numbers is not as easy like some have proclaimed. After so many people have tried and failed its too evident.



Don~

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Don- go find an amsoil thread to get mad about. We are trying to learn about our pumps here.

 

[Don M]

Originally posted by Cummins Corvette

Don- go find an amsoil thread to get mad about. We are trying to learn about our pumps here.

If you are truly wanting to learn why cant you listen to the advice given you from others that have been there, done that? Remembering that Joe D and Mark of TST developed the first cam plates why do you persist in disbelief of the potential damage of running without a plate?





1)The 913 is best.

2)Increasing rack travel past 19mm is not going to help everyone.

3)You dont need to remove the cam plate or damage can occur.

4)Stock delivery valves in the 913 pump are just as good as the larger ones for top HP numbers.



I was once too very skeptical of advice from Joe and others until I realized it was all in vain and I was only prolonging my learning curve. I have presented some pretty stupid a$$ ideas to Joe and he has always listened patiently to them and even tried a few out. After a few months of this back and forth and resistance I finally figured out it is just easier to listen to what he says.

In his posts contained in these forums he has given all the secrets to make 600HP. You just have to read what he has to say and try to understand what he means. Why go back and try to relearn what has been learned all over again everyday?



Don~

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

One of the guys at May Madness, Steve Fyfe, got 448. 2 hp with his original, way over 100K miles (maybe 140K?), 175 hp engine and injection pump. I helped him with a few pump tweaks and he has 370 injectors and the HX40-16. All the modifications have been mentioned repeatedly on this forum. His truck is another of the daily driven vehicles that tows a big trailer out here.



Stock delivery valves and fueling section. We changed the torque plate, AFC spring, governor springs/seats, timing. Ported head for egt control, ATS manifold, remote BD exhaust brake.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

Piers has fuel plates on sale this month. I am going to buy another BIG one. I don't think I am wasting my money.



Cummins Corvette... ... ... Listen to these guys. If you run into a problem you can't solve all by yourself, they might not be beating down your door wanting to help you out.

 

[M Barnett]

I discussed the pin issue with my Bosch guy this morning. He said that even with a torque plate in the truck, the pin can shear from the force on it during shutdown (rack travel in the other direction), so he always replaces it when doing a rebuild

Joe, does this happen very often? Any damage besides a broken pin?

Michael

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Ok, I'll let it rest. I was just reporting what I found when I took my pump apart. I will continue to run without a plate.

 

[MDW]

Hmmmmmmmmm

I think we have been sucker by this guy



I for one am getting tired of this stuff. I get asked all the time why I don't post more on here, Duhhhhhhh

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Re: Hmmmmmmmmm

Originally posted by MDW

I think we have been sucker by this guy

If you're talking about me... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... . you are due for a swift **** ** *** ****!! I am just posting info on what I have found out. What do I have to gain here? I don't sell "the invisable plate" or "the $300 plate removal tool". I don't sell anything. What the heck are you thinkiing?

 

[Strick-9]

Don,



You bring up a good point. Everyone throws around the word advance when dealing with plungers. Its the way the Bosch video and books describe it. But do the 913 pumps actually advance the timing with more rack travel or retard the timing?



-Chris

 

[Joe G.]

Chris,



I know I bungle this stuff once in a while because the Bosch pump I'm familiar with was on a marine diesel. Doesn't the rack travel determine when injection stops not when it starts? Thus injection always starts at the same point and stops when enough fuel is delivered according to the throttle (rack) position.

 

[Don M]

Originally posted by Strick-9

Don,



You bring up a good point. Everyone throws around the word advance when dealing with plungers. Its the way the Bosch video and books describe it. But do the 913 pumps actually advance the timing with more rack travel or retard the timing?



-Chris

Chris,



The 913/887 plungers do not change or modify rack travel. The advance is built into the plunger itself. It is accomplished by the design in the top of the plunger. A protrusion on both sides of the plunger close the spill/fill ports faster during the effective stroke than a conventional flat top plunger would at the same lift of the plunger in the barrel.



Just the opposite is true in a marine 300 or 370 pump. The plunger will have a retard groove cut into the plunger to delay port closing by 5 to 10 degrees to help cold starts. This groove is in a position on the plunger as to only be effective when the plunger is twisted into the cold start area of the racks travel.



Timing is still set and measured at the normal plunger lift even though the advance is built into the 913/887. Remembering the inside portion of the plunger is still flat and that is where the dial indicator measurement is taken.



The advantage of the 913/887 is clear in the fuel delivery portion of the pump. Other areas of the 913/887 are better as well, but this is better talked about in another topic.



Don~

 

[Strick-9]

Then maybe I don't have a 913. I'm fairly positive that instead of a protrusion on top of the plungers that advances the timing, I have a valley cut completely across the the top of my plunger to close the port later, thereby retarding the timing under heavy rack travel.



I could be wrong, I'll have to check tomorrow. I remember hearing about advance being built into the tops of the plungers on my Bosch pump video and when I first received my new pump from Piers I tore into it examining and measuring everything. I distinctly remember rotating the plungers back and forth while watching the plungers height versus the location of the fill ports under different amounts of rack travel.



I was expecting timing advance under more throttle and that's why I spent so much time studying it. It wasn't at all what I expected.



Like I said. I'll take it apart in the morning to see what's going on.



-Chris

 

[Don M]

Chris,



Yes, you have a 913 pump. There is actually no groove cut in the plunger top. The groove is actually the true top of the plunger and the sides that are higher is the protrusion I was talking about.



As the rack travel increases the plunger is rotated like you said, but it rotates toward the protrusion thus closing the spill port faster. The beauty of the 913 built in advance is the advance only comes in as the rack is moved forward otherwise the advance is not being used at low to moderate rack travel.



Think of the groove (you called it) as the actual top of the plunger instead of a groove.



Remembering the timing is set with the dial indicator measuring the lift on the true top of the plunger in the groove (you called it)

The cool thing is... you can have the static timing set at say 16 degrees and this helps the engine to start easier and the idle knock and banging is less. As your engine increases speed and rack travel the built in advance is effectively raising the timing by closing the spill/fill port faster. We all need less timing at low speeds and more at high speeds. This is the best pump you can get from Bosch of the ones that were used on the Dodge/Cummins.

There are other things that make the 913/887 the better choice as well. Its a factory race pump Man!



Don~

 

[Cummins Corvette]

What is this? Are we learning something? I thought this had been thrashed out already. I too have seen the groove cut in the top of the piston on a 913. It seems like that would be too narrow to do much (i. e. advance timing right off idle). I need to look at one again.

 

[TxDieselKid]

Re: Hmmmmmmmmm

Originally posted by MDW

I get asked all the time why I don't post more on here, Duhhhhhhh

ADMIT IT!!!! You just don't love your truck(s) as much as the rest of us do!!!



Andrew



P. S. want a pm of what i have found from the turbo?!?!?!?!

 

[Demon Dodge]

Ok I'm new to this p pump stuff since I have a 92 with the VE pump but since I am changing engines and have already purchased a 95 engine how do I tell what pump # it is?

I have been reading all the posts about bombing this engine but there seems to be a lot of conflicting information out there. My truck,camper and race trailer gcw is about 20,000#. What pump mods should I do? gsk? 181 DV? which plate#? What about injectors 215? 370? I was going to put my turbo from my 92 which has the 16cm housing on it. Is this a good idea will it work?

Thanks guys, Rod