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Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Take your plate out!!!!!!!

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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Serviced my 2001 auto feels great

Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Too much boost?

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Wow! I've been out of town for 4 days. Chris; the govenors on our engines are the limiting speed type meaning that they do not control rack travel between low idle and high idle. The rack will stay right where your foot holds it if the rpm is above idle and below the beginning of the defueling curve of high idle. Infact the only reason for the govenor is to make the engine idle and to keep it from overspeeding otherwise we could hook our throttle strait to the rack. Infact my next post will be titled "take your govenor out!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I wonder how that will go over. :D There is a type of govenor that reacts to rpm increase and decrease. It is called a constant speed govenor and they are on most tractors.

STILL HAVE NOT BEEN SHOWN ANY WAY THAT THE PIN WILL HAVE ANY EXTRA STRAIN ON IT WITH THE PLATE OUT!!!

Treven.
 
Actually... ... ... ..... I THINK our governor is a constant speed governor. How else do you account for the fact that it holds a constant rpm for every throttle position? It is all three: a constant speed governor, an idle governor (which uses the constant speed part), and a WOT speed governor. If you foot was hooked directly to the rack, then holding a constant speed would be PITA, more like a gasser throttle.
 
The name of this thread should be " Take your head out"



The governor in our trucks is a variable speed governor.

It uses negative and positive speed control.

The full load delivery quantity can be increased as well as reduced unlike most other governors.



Don~



On Edit:

come on Don!! keep is civil and clean.

Todd Thorp

12 Valve Moderator.
 
Interesting.....

This thread started like a transmission thread:-{} Then got interesting:cool: And now is sliding back to the dark side:{ And to make matters worse... . I am no closer to understanding the P7100 than when this thread started:( -not that everyone hasn't tried. I am one of those that need to see a dissassembled pump with my own eyes to begin to even has a slight grasp of this subject.



As for the topic that started this thread... . the plate has a purpose and the average person should use it to PREVENT premature pump failure. I don't see why you need proof when you yourself swear that it won't hurt it... . don't run it. But I will say that IF (notice I said IF) your pumps fail as a result of being plateless, that you will come on here and admit that you were wrong all along. :D No flame here... . just don't want the average person to see this thread and run out to there trucks and take off their plate thinking that everything will be hunky dorry. ;) (dorrie, dorey, dorree... . anyone now the correct spelling:D)
 
Re: Interesting.....

Originally posted by Chipstien

But I will say that IF (notice I said IF) your pumps fail as a result of being plateless, that you will come on here and admit that you were wrong all along. :D No flame here... . just don't want the average person to see this thread and run out to there trucks and take off their plate thinking that everything will be hunky dorry. ;) (dorrie, dorey, dorree... . anyone now the correct spelling:D)



IF my pump fails BECAUSE OF RUNNING WITHOUT A PLATE, then I will tell everyone. My purpose is to save YOUR money, not break your pump. After taking my pump apart, I can't see that any way, any how that could hurt it. I just wish someone did this for me before I bought those plates- THAT IS MY MOTIVATION. If I can get a digital camera I will take pictures next time I take the pump apart to help all you visual learner types (like myself). ;)
 
Don's right about our governors. They are variable speed governors.



And to T. Baker, whenever you're ready to start the thread about removing your governor, I'm all over it. :) I'm actually running without a governor now (above 1200 rpm).



To Cummins Corvette, the only reason you are able to hold a constant rpm is because the governor pulls the rack backwards and pushes it forward to maintain rpm CONSTANTLY.



I wish you could drive my truck. Once the governor is removed even 1/16" of throttle the engine will rev from 1200 to 4000 plus without moving the throttle. Actually, it's easier to see just revving the motor in park. That's because I'm positioning the rack with my foot.



Everyone has to understand the that rack travel and rpm are independant. That was part of the misunderstanding of this entire thread. It doesn't take more rack travel to get into the upper rpms.



When a stock truck is floored and held against the governor in neutral. The fueling level (or positioning of the rack) is nearly an idle quantity. If the fueling was more than an idle quantity, the engine would continue to accelerate without a load.



That's why the timing is back up on the advanced protrusion at high rpm and little rack travel on a stock truck.



-Chris
 
Originally posted by Cummins Corvette

Hey Don... ... ... . picture? If you're not going to post the pic, it's ok, but SAY you're not going to so I don't think you're forgetting.



It is a dead horse Man. Everyone has made up their minds as to what they believe is going on.



Don~
 
Don M,



Is that all you have to say?



A stock 913 has advance at higher RPM. That has been your point all along. Yes, with a stock governor that defuels the rack, the timing goes back up on the protrusion. Right where it was at idle.



But my question to you was, does the timing advance or retard as rack travel increases.



There's a HUGE difference there.



Is there just too much pride to admit it, or is this still over your head?



-Chris
 
I would like to ask that Don or Chris or Strick sum up the lesson here. I followed things well, right up to the last two pages or so when Don left for a while.



CC, I think your point still stands that parts failure may or may not happen without the plate. but also it was proven that you could be making less power with the plate out, caused by two things. First, too much rack travel. Second, too much fuel, too fast can also work against you. Hop on a Dyno and let us know either way.



Thanks,

Todd
 
My understanding from my diesel book and school experience is that a variable speed govenor is the type like on a tractor where you set it to run say at 1600 RPM and that is what speed it runs wheather you are goin up hill or down or digging etc. It is called variable speed because you can set it to run any speed you want between its limits and it will hold that speed. I agree with you chris that the rpm of a diesel will go right out of sight really quickly and that is why we need a limiting speed govenor in automotive aplications. A constant speed govenor is set to run at one speed only like on a generator say 1800 RPM and that is the only choice. Next time you guys get a chance try to hold a certain RPM with the truck in netral and you will find it is very hard to do because the govenor is not helping you. If you choose to take shots at me why don't you give me your definition of the three types of diesel govenors and tell me your information source Don?
 
Treven,



I was not taking a shot at you. It just kinda read that way. I went back and read that and it seems that I did that. Sorry 'bout that.



Um, governors and the operation are a book by themselves.

I dont really feel like typing a book tonight. A few of the ones I know of are:

Variable speed govs, Gen set govs, Combo govs, Max and Min speed govs. The only one that applies to us is the variable speed gov.

Our govs have a different type of torque control over the other variable speed govs though. Thats about all I want to say about our governors.



Don~
 
Our governor will hold speed in relation to set position as a tractor governor will. I have wired my cruise control system to pull and hold the the throttle lever, using the existing cruise control hardware. I have disconnected nothing. I have full function of the cruise control. The existing vacuum pot driving the cruise will hold the engine at a set idle speed anywhere from low idle to high idle, and it will control speed on the road but not as well due to the designed droop in the governor. The old Ford 6. 9 and 7. 3 with the Stanadyne DB2 pump was not a full range governor and you cannot hold speed with constant throttle position. There are 2 ways to verify your governor type. 1 try holding it at half throttle and see if you makehalf speed, or about 2000 rpm. 2. Especially with manual trans (no slippage) accelerate slowly, you will notice that you must gradually and uniformily depress the pedal as speed increases. More pedal, more speed.



Droop is required in every governor to maintain stability. Zero droop would mean a request for full fuel with only a drop of 1 rpm from the set point. The engine would overshoot and then the governor would request zero fuel. the result is the engine will hopelessly hunt up and down. Droop stabilizes the governor and speed of the engine. When the speed climbs close to the set point the fuel is reduced gradually so as not to overshoot, same if speed is dropping towards a set point, then fuel is gradually added as the set point is approached. Why mention this? Because of droop, there is some vagueness to the feel of the pedal and response of the engine. A lot of droop will start to feel like it is not full range governed.



The cruise control of any vehicle is a road speed governor, and road speed will vary slightly over hills due to droop in the cruise control. some more than others.



We defeat the droop at top end with the governor spring kits, or, more accurately take it above the operating point so it is out of the picture.



There are several reasons why we de fuel at higher speeds. The fuel plate will influence rack position as a function of rpm, most plates defueling at higher speeds. The AFC will defuel with lower boost. And the governor will defuel as it approaches the high idle set point due to droop.



The B5. 9 is rated to 56,000 lb gross vehicle weight in comercial use on hiway. The fuel plate allows tailoring of the HP and torque curves to give us the towability that the engine is famous for. In heavy duty applications increasing torque and even increasing HP as rpm drops, is what allows us to top hills heavily loaded without down shifting or loosing much speed. That is precisely why the plate is needed to add fuel at decreasing rpms. When you use this engine to it's limit towing, those plates are necessary for drivability and economy. For hot rodding empty with short spurts empty, and racing, none of that is important. Only in heavy towing will the engines power be used continously, and then the plates help set some limits that are reasonable to get the long life.



That is why the #11 plate is so good towing. It adds a mountain of fuel (torque) as speed drops and lets us pull grades without dropping speed much or downshifting. It also is reasonable in power produced so as not to decrease the engine life substantially under heavy constant use. Engines with peak torque low in the rpm band and decreasing torque with increasing rpm from the peak are the best towing engines.



I guess I am only making a case for why most of us should leave the plate in, and use a plate that matches our use of the vehicle.



Doug Rees
 
WOW, this plateless thread is still going on:--) Cummins Corvette are you going to Muncie? Tell you what, lets race, you without your worthless cam plate & I'll leave mine in, according to your findings, you should have way more power than me, cause I still run with a cam plate. I'll even give you a heads up on what engine mods I have so you will know what you're up against.

PDR prepped HX40 with a 16 housing, 4" exhaust

Ported cyl. head [ no power there, just lower egt's]

I'll run without my big injectors, just the 370's

PDR engine cam shaft

160hp pump that's been tweaked on a bit, but still has a cam plate in it.

94 5 spd truck, trans stock other than a South Bend clutch

Are ya game???
 
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