Thank you ex-president Clinton

[loncray]

Oh, and while you may want to keep all your money, I doubt you're willing to give up the services the govt. provides to you - like highways, a military, that sort of thing. It all takes money! And yes, any organization that big will have waste - like Congressmen calling a press conference about "Freedom Fries" in the House cafeteria - I wonder how much that cost the taxpayer?

 

[Udaloy]

You are looking at it too closely. Of course they tax us and spend it. I thought you had a business degree? You never heard of the tax and spend approach to a national economy? That would mean you raise taxes and spend it on all sorts of malformed, good intended social programs. Which is taking from those who have the money and giving it to the people who don't (i. e. socialism).



Unlike the idea that gov't is the best institution to figure out where the money should go, free markets allow the people and businesses to decide where to spend the money. Private industry is so much more efficient than the gov't that anything not worthy will soon be weeded out. Am I making any sense to you?

 

[Udaloy]

Originally posted by loncray

I doubt you're willing to give up the services the govt. provides to you - like highways, a military, that sort of thing.

Oh no, not me. I don't want a military or roads. What the hell did I say that made you think that? I said I'd cut it 4% a year. Hardly enough to ban the military and DOT's. The idea is that these services need to find a way to stretch their dollar just like the rest of us. How can you possibly argue against that?

 

[Morphious]

quite frankly, if the government did only what it was designed to do... ie protect the "people" instead of coddling them and lavishing the lazy and undeserving, we wouldn't be having this discussion and wouldn't have to worry nearly as much about immigration either. What person want to come to a country that they actually have to work in to live? What no welfare? Go to france or germany... . The government shouldn't be in the business of pleasing one group of people or another, that's where the party system has failed. The Dems want to be a socialist country, the Reps want a caste system (ie rich = dukes, etc)... . And what does that do to the people that fall in between? Rapes thier freedom to choose the services they want, Pilliages thier family coffers, and redistributes thier wealth to the undeserving. This is the problem with the government.

I can do without the crappy highway systems, and in reality, it's the states that maintain them, the feds just collect tax money and redistribute it how they want with thier conditions on it, ie. blackmail. Same with every other "Program" that the crooked swine cook up. The IRS should be abolished, and a purchased based taxing system should be implemented, ie... . your only taxed when you buy something, instead of this multi level of tax this, tax that, tax it when you die that we have now. Can anyone honestly name how many times a product can be taxed before it's destroyed? Oh well, time to go back to work so I can pay more taxes.



Morph.

 

[loncray]

Didn't say you'd get rid of military and roads - but the people who use those malformed programs might argue that THEY have a higher priority on the available money. If you cut govt. spending, something's got to go, and there's too many people using those malformed programs to let them all go. Welfare is way down compared to what it used to be, so what's left to cut? The military has plenty of waste - shouldn't they be made to cut too? Those social programs didn't just spring out of nothing - somebody uses them - and they vote too!

 

[loncray]

Private Industry

Private industry IS more efficient at a lot of things - but they're the ones doing a lot of the govt's work as contractors. Military doesn't build F14's, whoever bought Grumman does. DOT's don't build roads, they contract with paving companies. And private industry seems to breed some really greedy people - see Enron, et al.

 

[bmoeller]

Originally posted by loncray

Those social programs didn't just spring out of nothing - somebody uses them - and they vote too!

Anyone who uses/abuses the Goernment programs like welfare and Medicade/Medicare or Unemployment shouldn't be able to vote. That way they can't vote for people to put more of my money in their grubby hands. I do understand that some actually NEED the assistance since they may not family or friends to help them back on their feet. However, the main reason the programs were created was so that the Liberals would have someone vote for them. That way they could keep the money flowing to the leeches and bottom feeders of society. Some people may not be able to work due to some health problems, but there are plenty who can, but are to lazy to do get and keep a job.

 

[loncray]

I agree about people who abuse social programs - but if you disenfranchise them, you have to do the same to people who rip off the military, or the government in other ways. A defense contractor who pads the bill, or Enron employee for example. Liberals aren't the only ones ripping off the government.

 

[The patriot]

Originally posted by loncray

I agree about people who abuse social programs - but if you disenfranchise them, you have to do the same to people who rip off the military, or the government in other ways. A defense contractor who pads the bill, or Enron employee for example. Liberals aren't the only ones ripping off the government.

I dont think that ripping anyone off for anything is acceptable, but at least a defense contractor (seems to be the ones youre after) provide SOMETHING for the money.

Providing a grubby hand empty and opened every time the money comes by is something this country (and the taxpayers) can DO WITHOUT!!! Procreating to provide 5 or 10 more grubby empty hands for the next generation of taxpayers is at least to me, criminal.

This is not a service to us, as taxpayers, it's a disservice to the country as a whole.

As said before, there are legitimate individuals that cant make a living, for a number of reasons. OK, we aint letting anyone starve here.

There is a HUGE percentage of people on the public dole that makes this their career.

JM . 02

Eric





PS Most if not all of the defense contractor ripping off has been ended for the most part for years now. I know, I was employed by a major defense contractor back in the late 80's and early 90's when they started cracking down on such things.

 

[loncray]

Methinks there's a lot fewer welfare cheats on the dole than there used to be. Welfare reform a few years ago got rid of a lot (thought not all) of those who believed in life on the taxpayer's dollar. I'm hoping that Medicare/Medicaid cheats are the next group gone after.

And it's not defense contractor cheats in particular I'm after, but they make pretty good targets. So does Enron. Everybody's heard the stories of the $600 hammer and the $300 toilet seat.

 

[The patriot]

Re: Private Industry

Originally posted by loncray

Private industry IS more efficient at a lot of things - but they're the ones doing a lot of the govt's work as contractors. Military doesn't build F14's, whoever bought Grumman does. DOT's don't build roads, they contract with paving companies. And private industry seems to breed some really greedy people - see Enron, et al.

If it was up to the Govt to build all of it's own hardware, our guys would be fighting with sticks and stones.

Eric

 

[Eric Kahn]

Someone brought up the 300 dollar toilet seat agian, yes NASA did pay somthing like $600 apiece for "toilet seats" but they were for the space shuttles and they only ordered 4 of them so I think they got a bargain

try going to any shop and ordering 4 of anything that is custom made and see how much you pay for it.



GE engines used to have a person who's sole job was to run around checking design's and asking engineers if they could not substitute a standard sized bolt or nut or stud for the custom one with the strange length they put in their designs for new engine componants, he saved GE somting like a million dollars a month just in hardware costs, I. E. on nuts and bolts



Any big bueracracy is ineffiecent, the problem with the Gov is that no one can be fired for being stupid, I know, I work for the gov



the only reason clinton was not impeached was because of the jury, I. E. the then Democratic controlled senate, every criminal in the world wishes they could buy a jury with that kind of bias, it was a forgone conclusion that he would not be found guilty by the senate when Sen. Byrd got on national TV (and I watched the interview) and said "yes clinton is guilty, but I am not going to vote to impeach him" since under our constitution, the senate tries the president after the house finds cause to do so, he was never going to be convicted and, as president, the only place he could be tried for anything was the senate

 

[loncray]

The Senate didn't vote President Clinton guilty because the impeachment was on grounds that you couldn't get an indictment for in a local court. Perjury? Perhaps - but he was being asked personal questions that didn't have anything to do with the scope of the Whitewater investigation. And it was funny how suddenly a bunch of Republican Representatives were suddenly forced to answer questions about their own personal lives - what was the name of the guy who was Speaker of the House for about a week?



Clinton Administration - 1 criminal found guilty. Reagan Administration - 29 criminals found guilty.

 

[The patriot]

Originally posted by loncray



Clinton Administration - 1 criminal found guilty. Reagan Administration - 29 criminals found guilty.

I agree. You cant put dead bodies on trial.

Eric

 

[loncray]

If by that you mean Vince Foster, what was he accused of? Who else in the Clinton Administration died? I keep seeing veiled accusations that they had people killed like the old Mafia families - to whom are you referring?

 

[Eric Kahn]

An amazing number of FOC's (friends of clinton) died mysteriously while he was in office, I used to have a list, but lost it in the last computer crash

 

[bmoeller]

Originally posted by loncray

If by that you mean Vince Foster, what was he accused of? Who else in the Clinton Administration died? I keep seeing veiled accusations that they had people killed like the old Mafia families - to whom are you referring?

Have you seen the video called "The Clinton Chronicles"? Even if only half of the stuff that both Bill and Hillary Clinton supposedly did were try, they (the impeachment inditements) didn't even scratch the surface.



Supposed drug running out of Mena, Arkansas, money laundering, murder, Rose Law Firm inpoprieties just for starters.





quote- And it's not defense contractor cheats in particular I'm after, but they make pretty good targets. -quote



A local company got in big trouble for padding repair bills on goverment equipment. Didn't do some the work (about 6K worth) that they claimed that they were going to do.





quote- I agree about people who abuse social programs - but if you disenfranchise them, you have to do the same to people who rip off the military, or the government in other ways. -quote



If the shoe fits.

 

[bmoeller]

Originally posted by Eric Kahn

An amazing number of FOC's (friends of clinton) died mysteriously while he was in office, I used to have a list, but lost it

I can't find it again either. Pretty long list.

 

[NETim]

Whitewater

If memory serves me right, Ken Starr's investigations put 20 some odd people in the clink. So it wasn't exactly a witch hunt.



Yep, Starr spent a lot of money. Could've been less had the admin cooperated a little bit more. But the Clinton admin has never been known as as a stand up forthright kind of outfit.



That whole outfit stunk IMHO.



Tim

 

[loncray]

I haven't seen this list of Friends of Bill suddenly, mysteriously dying. Sounds like McCarthy's list of 'known communists in the State Department. ' And my understanding was that Starr only put Webster Hubbell (sp?) in prison - who else got jailed?

I don't doubt there were improprieties in the Clinton's lives - nobody reaches that level of power (govt. or corporate) without a skeleton or two. But $42 million of our tax dollars, millions more from people like Scaife and his minions, and every Republican in the country couldn't secure a conviction on anything! Now, while I guess the lesson that Reagan taught us with Iran Contra (deny everything, avoid indictment) might hold true here, I can't believe that all those very smart, rich people couldn't get one Arkansas bubba if he was guilty of all those things.