The auto transmission and bindup!

[SlyBones]

Stakeman,



I did not go back and read the thread, I am doing this from memory. Probably did not necessarily understand everthing either. But its seems back in the servo thread where the discussion about the 2-3 shift versus the 1-2, 1-3 shift, that part of the discussion revolved around what you are asking.



What I got out of that was, the idea case would be when 2nd gear release slightly ahead of 3rd engagement. Some referred to this as a 1-2, 1-3 shift. As the gap between them, whether the engine flairs or not, felt or not, that brief gap was first gear. Hence 1-2, 1-3. My impression of the technical stuff Clint countered with was that the gap between them was not first gear, and there are things built in that assist with preventing actual flairing. I dont know about the first gear stuff, but what I read was regardless of what label you attach to it, both were saying they believe in the 2 release before 3 engage as the ideal shift. I am guessing but it seems that were back to timing. Like my some what exagerated cases above, if the duration of the gap is a 10th of a second or something of that nature, would the engine really have time to flair? Would first gear really have time to engage? If the duration was 3 seconds would the engine have time to flair? Would first gear really have time to engege?



Just my thoughts.

 

[boatpuller]

Edward,

I am not a transmission tech at all but have put a few Transgo kits in my own transmissions, I have a fair understanding of fluid mechanics. I think that the technicians you are referring to are saying that the valve moves quickly because the time that the shift actually takes is a fairly short period of time but during that period the valve doesn't go from open to closed(2nd to third) instantaneously. It is during this relatively quick period that the damage is done, instead of the second gear releasing and then third gear engaging with no slippage of either gear there is a period of time where second gear is slipping and third gear is slipping at the same time(what is being referred to as binding) it is not for a very long time period but it is doing this because the valve slowly moves as pressure is applied. (When I say the valve moves slowly what I am trying to say is that it isn't fully one way or the other, it's in between for a period of time).



Chris's analogy about the springs on the rear of a truck is a very good one because the valve is held by a spring against the fluid pressure.



Hope this makes it a little more clear as I understand it, hopefully I'm not out in left field,



Caleb

 

[fox]

Edward, who told you synthetic is more viscous at low temp than dino oil? Please read up on it.

You have it backwards.

It these trans use 3rd gear oil to release 2nd , can it be hard to understand that both may posibly be applying pressure at the same time? My son understands it.

 

[WWalters]

2-3 Bind up

I get the impression from reading the posts to this thread that if I don't accelerate briskly every time that I take off from a standing start, my trucks' 47RE transmission is not going to make it for long. I'm confused by this. First of all, I live in a large city and drive in stop & go traffic each day. Most of the time it's virtually impossible to accelerate briskly ( to avoid the 2-3 up shift binding)when taking off. There is usually some slow poke in front of you.



Next, I 'm fairly certain that we are supposed to drive these trucks moderately until the engine reaches operating temperature. In other words, I baby mine until it warms up; which apparently means that my transmission is doing a lot of binding. Finally, I have read some previous posts on this web sight that talk about driving habits with the 47RE transmission. In one of these posts, several individuals said that they let off of the throttle when the transmission starts to shift; similar to driving a standard transmission and depressing the clutch pedal. From this, I got the impression that constant heavy throttle pressure during up shifts was not good. Does someone want to give me the right answer on this subject.

 

[StakeMan]

SlyBones,



According to some the 2-3 overlap happens so fast that you can't tell it, but look at how much discussion it causes. Wouldn't a 2-3 shift flare or under-lap be just as bad if not worse?



What seems strange to me is that some owners of a certain brand of aftermarket transmission have the "bind up" and some have the flare?

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

Slybones,



You have no idea how right you are it is just a question of time.



Stakeman, you are mis-understanding this , i don't know where you are getting the idea that only certain brands have bind up.



This condition is engineered by Chrysler so it is in every dodge ram out there. Why is it that this has to be turned into a brand war, it is part of Chrysler's engineering.



To get rid of this condition you must re-engineer the system. Which with todays technology it is impossible AT ALL THROTTLE POSITIONS, as long as you are using 3rd gear apply oil to release the second the 2nd gear band all Dodge rams have bind up.



The only thing you can do is control the time and even that changes from truck to truck. Whether you can feel it or not has nothing to do with it. See guys are mis-understanding when they think they can feel a bind up shift , the only time you will feel that is under extreme conditions .



Now shift hesitation can be confused with bind up. That is usually caused by mis-adjusted kick down cables, faulty governor solenoids or crap in the valve body.



Shift feel between hot and cold is usually caused by the oil itself or internal transmission pressures which change with temperature. Same as when your engine temps change so does your oil pressure except not as extreme as the engine oil pressure.



A runaway shift or an under lap shift is less harmful which has been proved in the drag racing industry for a long time. On one of our employees that work here ( Darrin ) he has a dodge dart we actually gained et by creating a runaway shift.



wwalters,



I will pass on the info Bill tells the guys that come into our shop, drive it like you stole it. It will last longer.



You can't avoid a 2-3 bind up you can only shorten the length of time . In our own shop we completely re-designed 2nd gear. IE) the 2nd gear servo, servo spring, and servo cap,apply lever, band strutt, and band anchor. We have also been forced to re-design the 3rd gear system. IE) different piston, different sealing rings, and we are even testing our own governor solenoids. All of this is being done in an effort to shorten the 2-3 bind up or overlap Chrysler built in their transmissions. We take this kind of stuff very seriously.



Our best advice is if someone tells you that there is no such thing as 2-3 bind up go back and re - read Chris ( strick9's ) post again.



As long as 3rd gear apply is being used to release the 2nd gear band it is impossible to avoid a 2-3 bind up at all throttle positions.



Certain transmission builders out there that truly understand the system are able to re-program the shift patterns. But even Bill will tell you not at all throttle positions.



Again best advice for you guys out there , DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT.

 

[Batman]

Stefan, Why "drive it like you stole it"?

Does this shorten time that bindup can occur?



I'm a little confused with something else. Under normal driving 2 to 3 shift hesitates sometimes (ony under certain throttle positions, and at that not all the time) What could this be?



TIA

George

 

[Devildog]

Thanks, Edward.

I like DDT products and Bill is superb with his assistance. I have all the upgrade components ( as of last fall ) in my transmission Except my pressure plate isn't anodized red

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

Batman,



Shift hesitation is usually caused by pcm , governor solenoid and or throttle cable. The pcm programming is very critical to how the transmission works, since you are lying to the pcm ie) added hp, different tire sizes, tighter converters, resistors to fool the pcm into thinking you are running factory pressures in simple terms garbage in to the computer = garbage out.



If you disconnect your batteries, when the batteries are disconnected try starting the vehicle at least twice, this clears any memory in the ecm and pcm. Re- hook up batteries turn the key to the on position very slowly step on the throttle pedal.



With the key in the off position step on the throttle slowly all the way to the floor , watch how your truck will drive differently for the next few days.



What i am getting at is that the pcm will actually give you a different shift pattern under light to medium throttle conditions and on its own get rid of the shift hesitation.



For some drivers this new shift pattern only lasts about a few days for others it lasts months.

 

[StakeMan]

Stefan,



What I was trying to say is that I have seen owners of a certain brand, say different things. Some say they can cause a 2-3 bind up and some say they have a 2-3 shift flare. Seems rather inconsistent to me.

 

[Jetpilot]

quote by edward

If others could conduct their own testing and post their results we could quickly see if this hypothesis is correct. Maybe someone could produce this binding shift event. I would be interested to know the RPM and MPH where anyone created a binding shift. I would also like to know how many times they could produce the binding condition at that same RPM and MPH. Remember for a hypothesis to be proven true the condition has to be creatable and consistently reproducible.

edward,



you asked the above questions and then when some members respones supported Strick-9's theory you questioned his reasons for even making the post and his business affiliation.





qoute by edward

First of all I hoped to avoid all the references to previous wagers, because those types of references tend to inflame the conversation.

Chris if I accepted your theory and said you were 100% right I would not stand to loose any income and I would not have to change any business affiliation. Can you say the same thing? If you changed your position and said that a binding shift is a myth would you loose any income or have to find a new supplier? Please answer this question it matters.

edward,



Your first response above says you wanted to avoid references that would inflame the conversation yet in the second response you go on to question Strick-9's integrity. I feel that these remarks are only said so as to inflame the topic and move the discussion away from the question at hand. Lets keep the thread on subject and try and resolve the questions on the bind-up shift.



Doug



Oh you might also notice my signature DOES have that I am sponsored! Although the transmission in my truck is still the original DTT one I purchased at full price

 

[Batman]

Thanks for the explanation Stefan.



I have added HP, changed converters from a 91 to an 89.



I will try what you typed.



George

 

[Snow man]

I always drive mine like I stole it. . If Im not all over the pedal,its only because theres a pesky car in my way,or an officer of the law following me,then i drive easier.

 

[Vorski]

Boy oh Boy there is a loat of technical talk here about what is going on with our transmissions. I own a 2002 CTD with 15000 miles on it and the bottom line is, there is something that happens between 2nd and 3rd that causes hesitation in the automatic shift pattern at or about 25 mph. It seems to happen about the time I stop paying attention to it. We paid quite a bit of money for these rigs. One would think Dodge would understand what is going on here and come to the aid of we CTD lovers. Should a guy bring the CTD to the dealer and explain what is the concern? I am guessing this has been done.

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

Vorski,



Per Bill follow the same advice given to Batman, with one addition in our shop 2001,2002 from the factory we have noticed have mis-adjusted kickdown cables. You would be surprised how many guys come to us with their new trucks for a new transmission and end up leaving with a kick down cable adjustment. If a Ram owner accepts that a 2-3 bind up does exist and understands that Chrysler engineered it to be there then they can take steps to make it better.



If you believe as some tell you that the 2- bind up does not exist then you cannot fix or make it better as it does not exist .



The real problem lies in the fact that the Dodge Ram owners really don't know much about the automatic. This is not meant as an insult but is in fact the reality. This should nt be a brand war discussion as it is a factory design issue.



Remember guys this is the same design as in the 1960's made worse by the addition of electronics.

 

[Steve M]

On my new truck, shifts seemed kinda mushy. The kickdown cable was pretty loose with the throttle at idle position. I unlocked it and took up the slack and now it feels about right. Is this the right thing to do? All this talk about the auto transmission's flaws makes me wonder how some manage to make 300,000 miles.

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

SteveM,



We have not noticed the kickdown problems until the 2001 model years were released.

Its just good practice to check your kick down cable thats all.



Our procedure for checking the cable is this,



It is a 2 person job,



With the engine off , vehicle in park ,

person in the cab foot to the floor

person underneath truck should be able to slightly move the TV lever at the transmission ever so slightly towards the rearend.



This is for a stock truck with a stock valve body,



Aftermarket valvebodies you have a little more leeway, and you should always check with your aftermarket manufacturers.





We have personally seen trucks in our shop with over 200,000 miles that look mint inside while we have seen others fail will less than 600 miles on them. Its the Chrysler + and - specs inside the trans that Bill describes as pathetic at best.

 

[Edward]

Doug



With all due respect, if Chris feels like I questioned his integrity he needs to be the one to say so. If Chris feels he has been slighted that would be between Chris, myself and no one else. I am sure Chris appreciates your concern however after reading many of his posts I find him to be articulate, logical and mature enough to speak for himself.

Doug if you wish to take this conversation any farther please do it in a PM. Also I do appreciate your openness about your affiliations it is nice to see where people are coming from.



Chris if there is a real issue here please send me a PM.



Edward

 

[Edward]

Originally posted by fox

Edward, who told you synthetic is more viscous at low temp than dino oil? Please read up on it.

You have it backwards.

It these trans use 3rd gear oil to release 2nd , can it be hard to understand that both may posibly be applying pressure at the same time? My son understands it.

Fox

I hate it when I do that. I guess I had a premature senior moment. I wanted to say that synthetic fluid would flow easier than dino oil when it is cold.



Edward

 

[Joe G.]

I resemble that remark! I will be 65 before this week is over and ALL my moments are senior moments.