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The auto transmission and bindup!
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Glasmiths
I am glad you brought it up. The timing/overlap is controlled by ratios in mechanical linkage and by physical volumes of hydraulic components. No electronic devise is capable of physically altering any ratio in the linkage or physically altering any hydraulic volume.
If Stefan is right and the binding problem was engineered into the transmission years ago how can the release of an electronic transmission controller in the last few months be responsible for causing it? How is it logically possible for this devise to cause a preexisting problem? The school of thought you defend is telling us that the problem is there day one from the factory. If binding is there before you hook up the controller then what could be so surprising about it being there after you hook it up?
All this transmission controller does is change the pressure in the governor circuit not the rate of pressure gain in that circuit. To use the existing analogy it simply changes the load in the back of the truck. The rate of acceleration is unchanged so the rate at which the pressure builds in the governor circuit is unchanged. According to Stefan your right foot has more to do with any possibility of causing a binding shift than any controller dreamed of. “Drive it like you stole it” According to Chris if you stop building pressure in the governor circuit you can stop the shift valve movement.
According to the example given by Chris what causes binding is when the rate of pressure gain slows or stops in the governor circuit thereby holding the valve in mid stroke. Slow pressure building slow valve movement fast pressure building fast valve movement The controller in question does not stop or slow the rate at which the pressure builds in the governor circuit your right foot does.
If you want to mechanically change when a transmission shifts into third gear you change the spring on the 2-3 valve, stiffer spring later shift softer spring earlier shift. Now Transmission builders use different springs all the time without causing a binding problem. These different springs only change when the 2-3 shift happens not how fast the transition happens. It is impossible for this spring to change the rate at which the pressure builds in the governor circuit. Now there is another ingenious way to change shift points without changing the springs. Change the pressure on the other side of the spring, more pressure earlier shift less pressure later shift. This can be done without affecting the rate at which the pressure in the governor circuit rises This controller does not hinder the building of pressure or the rate at which that pressure builds in the governor circuit. When the transmission controller is turned on you get the electronic equivalent of changing the 2-3 shift valve spring. More pressure on the governor side would be like putting a softer spring into the valve less pressure would be like putting a stiffer spring in. Again all this would do is change when it shifts. The problem Chris identified in his theory is rate of pressure gain not governor circuit pressure.
If Chris is right and the pressure gain slows or stops then the valve slows or stops causing a binding condition. Simply changing the pressure would only delay or advance when the shift happens it could not change the rate of transition/overlap
Edward
Originally posted by GLASMITHS
Well, that happens to be exactly what BillK was talking about. If you mess with this timing of 2nd and 3rd shift, you are on your own dime. I'm certainly glad that you have solved this problem, and everyone is in agreement with that conclusion.
Thank you. We can now get on with life.
Glasmiths
I am glad you brought it up. The timing/overlap is controlled by ratios in mechanical linkage and by physical volumes of hydraulic components. No electronic devise is capable of physically altering any ratio in the linkage or physically altering any hydraulic volume.
If Stefan is right and the binding problem was engineered into the transmission years ago how can the release of an electronic transmission controller in the last few months be responsible for causing it? How is it logically possible for this devise to cause a preexisting problem? The school of thought you defend is telling us that the problem is there day one from the factory. If binding is there before you hook up the controller then what could be so surprising about it being there after you hook it up?
All this transmission controller does is change the pressure in the governor circuit not the rate of pressure gain in that circuit. To use the existing analogy it simply changes the load in the back of the truck. The rate of acceleration is unchanged so the rate at which the pressure builds in the governor circuit is unchanged. According to Stefan your right foot has more to do with any possibility of causing a binding shift than any controller dreamed of. “Drive it like you stole it” According to Chris if you stop building pressure in the governor circuit you can stop the shift valve movement.
According to the example given by Chris what causes binding is when the rate of pressure gain slows or stops in the governor circuit thereby holding the valve in mid stroke. Slow pressure building slow valve movement fast pressure building fast valve movement The controller in question does not stop or slow the rate at which the pressure builds in the governor circuit your right foot does.
If you want to mechanically change when a transmission shifts into third gear you change the spring on the 2-3 valve, stiffer spring later shift softer spring earlier shift. Now Transmission builders use different springs all the time without causing a binding problem. These different springs only change when the 2-3 shift happens not how fast the transition happens. It is impossible for this spring to change the rate at which the pressure builds in the governor circuit. Now there is another ingenious way to change shift points without changing the springs. Change the pressure on the other side of the spring, more pressure earlier shift less pressure later shift. This can be done without affecting the rate at which the pressure in the governor circuit rises This controller does not hinder the building of pressure or the rate at which that pressure builds in the governor circuit. When the transmission controller is turned on you get the electronic equivalent of changing the 2-3 shift valve spring. More pressure on the governor side would be like putting a softer spring into the valve less pressure would be like putting a stiffer spring in. Again all this would do is change when it shifts. The problem Chris identified in his theory is rate of pressure gain not governor circuit pressure.
If Chris is right and the pressure gain slows or stops then the valve slows or stops causing a binding condition. Simply changing the pressure would only delay or advance when the shift happens it could not change the rate of transition/overlap
Edward
The problem is not 100% or 0%. From what I have gathered out of this and other threads is from the factory 2-3 overlap shift occured 100% of the time, as thats the way dodge designed it. However aftermarket transmission builders are taking steps to reduce and eliminate it as best they can. So just for example lets say they got it down to only 10% of the time you have 2-3 overlap shifts. Now you install an aftermarket device and it changes it to 50% of the time. Should I be happy with that? Should aftermarket transmission vendors be happy with that? Is it reasonable for aftermarket transmission vendors to do proper testing to insure their 10% ( just my example ) margin is maintained?
Not trying to accuse any aftermarket controller of anything. Just answering the question as I see it.
Slybones
Please reread the theory that Chris posted. The devise in question does not change the rate of acceleration (how fast the pressure builds in the governor circuit). According to Chris and Stefan the pressure building at a slow rate is what causes the shift valve to move slowly or to stop in mid stroke thereby causing binding. Changing the pressure in the governor circuit is like electronically changing the shift valve spring. This only changes when the shift happens not how fast it happens.
All this stuff about binding is blown out of proportion.
Overlap or transition is intentionally designed into the transmission for one darn good reason. Unlike a standard transmission the driver of an automatic does not take his/her foot off the accelerator and remove power as the gears are changed. In the Cummins powered trucks this means that the horsepower and torque we love is still being produced. Where does this power go? Well it can be used for it’s original intent if you transition it to the other gear or you can waste it by letting the engine flair (letting go of the rope). Now lets touch on how much transition/overlap time is acceptable. If you prolong the transition you get a soft mushy shift that you may not be able to feel. On the other hand if you cut the time span of transition/overlap to a nanosecond under heavy acceleration you get a shift so hard that it will loosen your teeth. Ok that was a bit of an exaggeration but you get the point. Here is another example a live stock setup in the valve body or a drag race setup. Both shift quite differently on is smoother (longer transition) the other is harsh (shorter transition). What transmission builders do is choose a logical balance. Most of us want drivability and transmission life. A good transmission builder can improve both. I had a transmission that lasted 168000 miles after rebuild and all it had above stock was a shift kit. The company who is responsible for giving us the marketing term “binding shifts” made that kit. I didn’t need any of the pretty blue and red internal parts to get that kind of life out of the transmission either. I would still be driving that car today if someone had not hit it and totaled it out. That shift kit company proved that they could reduce the time the transmission is in overlap/transition and have significant gains in transmission life while making the transmission responsive. Way too much is being made of overlap/transition being a bad thing. My personal view is that the term “binding” has more to do with marketing than a technical explanation of a malfunction. Remember some people want you to think that the transmission as designed was intentionally built with this horrid condition and they are the only people out there capable of fixing it. Would you be willing to part with your hard earned cash if a transmission builder told you that you had an extended shift transition problem in your transmission? That doesn’t sound all that bad but if someone told you that you had “binding shifts” and it was causing your transmission to fail well that sounds really bad. The hope is you will be more willing to part with some cash. Binding has the negative connotation that mechanical parts are locking up and things are grabbing. The terms transition and overlap convey the correct meaning that the power of the engine is being transferred to another gear in a logical organized manner. All of us as consumers get to decide if we are being sold or if there is a real problem we need to run out and fix now. Yes there is an improvement available but do you need to worry every time you start your truck with 50 to 80 thousand miles on it that today the binding will cause the bottom to fall out. Get it taken care of when the time comes. More of the 47RE transmissions go in for repair of the over drive than for the second band and third clutches. Get your valve body reprogrammed at the same time. A problem that has a fix available is no longer a problem. The ability to improve transmission life by changing the speed of the transition/overlap has been around for over 20 years. This is noting new and most reputable builders simply do it in every transmission they rebuild and make noting of it. In fact the fix is so common that it comes in kit form for those shops that don’t know how to properly reduce the time it takes to transition between gears. All they have to do is buy the kit read the instructions and put it in.
Edward
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Edward I don't think you can compare any car's auto trans with our CTD's. The torque and weight difference make them like comparing apples and oranges. Lets see 150hp/175 ft lbs torque and 3000lbs to 250 hp/525 ft. lbs torque and 7000 lbs. Unless there was some type of overlap between 2 and 3 the stress put on the 3rd gear clutches would be evan greater than it is now. I believe most trany builders take extra care with the 3rd gear setup anyway due to the increased loads it sees. 
Originally posted by BillGotthelf
Edward I don't think you can compare any car's auto trans with our CTD's. The torque and weight difference make them like comparing apples and oranges. Lets see 150hp/175 ft lbs torque and 3000lbs to 250 hp/525 ft. lbs torque and 7000 lbs. Unless there was some type of overlap between 2 and 3 the stress put on the 3rd gear clutches would be evan greater than it is now. I believe most trany builders take extra care with the 3rd gear setup anyway due to the increased loads it sees.
Bill I agree completely with you on the overlap issue. As to the differences between the heavy truck and lighter car you must also consider that the transmission in the car was the little brother to the 47RE. I also used this smaller and lighter duty transmission to tow an 18 foot camp trailer heavy enough to require a torsion bar hitch setup. So I think the comparisons are quite close. As to the overlap issue there is one rebuilder out there who is saying he releases second gear before third is applied thereby eliminating overlap. Here is the exact quote "The (company name omitted) piston was engineered to allow the 2nd gear band to release before the 3rd gear clutch comes on. " Here is a link to the article he posted so you can read it in the complete context. http://www.dieseltrans.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=212
Edward
Edward-I've read that before. Do you think it is impossible to design a transmission to release 2nd gear while at the same moment engaging 3rd gear? I recieved Bill's parts last week and after I get a voltage flucuation (TPS to ECM . 08 volts) fixed that causing the TC to continuously lock and unlock they will be installed. By changing pressure, 3rd gear cltch band application lever and all the other parts I do not see why this cannot happen. Oh yea you need to see the clutch pack #'s, line pressures, etc before you compare the old 727's to our 47re's. Not even close. I've been building and racing hot rods for over 30 years. Including a prized Dodge Daytona Hemi with a 727 trans.
Edward,
You did a fine job coming up with that tug-of-war analogy. You've misled quite a few people into thinking bind is a good thing.
Let me step in and clarify a few things about your analogy.
You said you have three pulling teams and each team pulls all they can and then passes the rope over to the next team.
What you don't seem to realize is that your pulling teams (clutches) are traveling at drastically different speeds.
To make your analogy a little more practical, put team 3 (3rd gear) on a vehicle driving by team 2 at 30 mph and tell them to grab the rope. Now you have two choices, you can either grab the rope that team 2 is still desperately holding stationary with all their might. Warning: Team 2 already has a solid hold on the rope and if you try to grab it while driving by at 30 mph, your hands will be severely burnt. (bindup)
On the other hand you could make team 2 let go of the rope before you grab it so it doesn't have to burn your hands unnecessarily. With this method, all you have to do is speed up the rope to 30 mph and your hands suffer the least amount of damage.
Now what if team 2 lets go slightly before you are ready to grab it. The opposing team will start to move the rope in the opposite direction from team 3 on their moving vehicle. So now let's say team three has to accelerate the rope from 0-35 mph. That's still MUCH easier on the hands than trying to yank the rope out from team 2's hands.
To sum it up. During your "transition" period, one or both clutches HAVE to be slipping. If both clutches applied fully and weren't slipping than the output shaft would HAVE to stop turning. That means skidding tires on the pavement.
Also you seem to be confused on the difference between shift overlap and shift speed. They are different yet you don't seem to understand that. You CAN have a slower shift (livestock type) without bindup or with excessive bindup either way. It's all in how you build and tune it and what parts are inside. Obviously the people you get your information from don't understand that yet.
I would really like to take this discussion a little deeper and probe into governor pressure curves and the effects an electronic box can make on bindup. But you are going to need to do a little more homework with a pressure gauge first. That's why I gave you that (hint, hint) in my first reply.
But you can't just test one or two trucks, because they don't all have the same curve programmed in the PCM. Surely you at least know that.
My favorite line of yours is this.
I still chuckle reading that. I know that once you spend some more time testing governor pressures and mapping out governor curves, we won't be arguing anymore. That's why I'm trying to get you to actually do some testing before speaking/typing.
Best wishes in your testing,
Chris
You did a fine job coming up with that tug-of-war analogy. You've misled quite a few people into thinking bind is a good thing.
Let me step in and clarify a few things about your analogy.
You said you have three pulling teams and each team pulls all they can and then passes the rope over to the next team.
What you don't seem to realize is that your pulling teams (clutches) are traveling at drastically different speeds.
To make your analogy a little more practical, put team 3 (3rd gear) on a vehicle driving by team 2 at 30 mph and tell them to grab the rope. Now you have two choices, you can either grab the rope that team 2 is still desperately holding stationary with all their might. Warning: Team 2 already has a solid hold on the rope and if you try to grab it while driving by at 30 mph, your hands will be severely burnt. (bindup)
On the other hand you could make team 2 let go of the rope before you grab it so it doesn't have to burn your hands unnecessarily. With this method, all you have to do is speed up the rope to 30 mph and your hands suffer the least amount of damage.
Now what if team 2 lets go slightly before you are ready to grab it. The opposing team will start to move the rope in the opposite direction from team 3 on their moving vehicle. So now let's say team three has to accelerate the rope from 0-35 mph. That's still MUCH easier on the hands than trying to yank the rope out from team 2's hands.
To sum it up. During your "transition" period, one or both clutches HAVE to be slipping. If both clutches applied fully and weren't slipping than the output shaft would HAVE to stop turning. That means skidding tires on the pavement.
Also you seem to be confused on the difference between shift overlap and shift speed. They are different yet you don't seem to understand that. You CAN have a slower shift (livestock type) without bindup or with excessive bindup either way. It's all in how you build and tune it and what parts are inside. Obviously the people you get your information from don't understand that yet.
I would really like to take this discussion a little deeper and probe into governor pressure curves and the effects an electronic box can make on bindup. But you are going to need to do a little more homework with a pressure gauge first. That's why I gave you that (hint, hint) in my first reply.
But you can't just test one or two trucks, because they don't all have the same curve programmed in the PCM. Surely you at least know that.
My favorite line of yours is this.
I still chuckle reading that. I know that once you spend some more time testing governor pressures and mapping out governor curves, we won't be arguing anymore. That's why I'm trying to get you to actually do some testing before speaking/typing. Best wishes in your testing,
Chris
Quote
"It's all in how you build and tune it and what parts are inside. Obviously the people you get your information from don't understand that yet. "
Strict-9, Keep insulting people and trying to convince others that you're right. Maybe you are and maybe you aren't I certainly don't care. How many 10's of thousands of words were spent trying to explain to all the members why a 3 disc TC would not work and would lead to rapid trans failure. Time is proving that DTT was dead wrong about that one, and others understood more about how it worked than DTT.
My point is that no company knows everything they all have more and less knowledge than others in certain areas.
The fact remains that the companies DTT and others keep insulting are producing products that work extremely well
Bind up, the way I look at it, If transmissions from companies x,y and z all last about as long as the others, somehow they all have the "bind up" under control even if they don't "understand it yet"
"It's all in how you build and tune it and what parts are inside. Obviously the people you get your information from don't understand that yet. "
Strict-9, Keep insulting people and trying to convince others that you're right. Maybe you are and maybe you aren't I certainly don't care. How many 10's of thousands of words were spent trying to explain to all the members why a 3 disc TC would not work and would lead to rapid trans failure. Time is proving that DTT was dead wrong about that one, and others understood more about how it worked than DTT.
My point is that no company knows everything they all have more and less knowledge than others in certain areas.
The fact remains that the companies DTT and others keep insulting are producing products that work extremely well
Bind up, the way I look at it, If transmissions from companies x,y and z all last about as long as the others, somehow they all have the "bind up" under control even if they don't "understand it yet"
Edward,
A lot of guys make comments without ever having done the testing, we have thousands of hours and that is no exaggeration on testing. We do not make pretty colored parts (as you put it ) for the sake of beautifying the inside of the transmission and then have the gall to charge the same as our competitors because we feel like losing money. These parts have a purpose, we know that not everyone will understand why now, we know why and we put them in to assist the factory unit with its weaknesses,in time when the industry catches up they to will understand the significance.
A lot of guys make comments without ever having done the testing, we have thousands of hours and that is no exaggeration on testing. We do not make pretty colored parts (as you put it ) for the sake of beautifying the inside of the transmission and then have the gall to charge the same as our competitors because we feel like losing money. These parts have a purpose, we know that not everyone will understand why now, we know why and we put them in to assist the factory unit with its weaknesses,in time when the industry catches up they to will understand the significance.
Chris
In the future could you please avoid the condescending tone? I am trying to overlook the differences in personalities and keep this debate polite. I honestly admit I find it hard sometimes because arrogance is offensive to me. Could you please avoid belittling those who disagree with you?
I will reply in due time.
Edward
In the future could you please avoid the condescending tone? I am trying to overlook the differences in personalities and keep this debate polite. I honestly admit I find it hard sometimes because arrogance is offensive to me. Could you please avoid belittling those who disagree with you?
I will reply in due time.
Edward
Stefan
Yes a select few people make changes to systems then spend hour’s redesigning and testing products to fix the problems their first change caused. They didn't do the proper initial testing. Those parts you mentioned have a purpose you say. According to your company sight the purpose of these parts is to stop internal leaks. If you crank the pressure up above what the system is designed for should leaks be a surprise? If you increase the pressure what once was seepage is now dripping, and what once was dripping is now squirting out in a steady stream. Your company brags about having the highest pressures in the business so why should internal leaks be a surprise to you. What’s happening sounds like the guy who goes out to the water pressure regulator at his home and jacks up the pressure. Then to his surprise he notices leaks in sink faucets, the hot water heater pop off and shower. So he decides the factory plumbing hardware needs some assistance with the weaknesses in their designs. So he spends hours designing and testing new seats, O-rings, and has custom made red and blue anodized gaskets. The factory may have weaknesses but internal leaks caused by someone cranking up the pressures is not one of them. It is not the factories fault someone didn’t do the proper initial testing. The bottom line remains these pretty blue and red parts were designed to fix a problem inherent to your companies design. No one else seems to need them. Are we expected to believe that the rest of the transmission builders out there who can get the power to the ground are wrong and the only company who needs these pretty parts is right?
Edward
MODERATOR FEEDBACK: Edward, this post is on the line. I'm very close to deleting it because of the tone. Keep it technical. Avoid baiting. Or I may rethink my decision and delete this post altogether.
Robin
TDR Admin
03/20/03
Edward,
Seems to me you are speaking for all transmission vendors out there. Do you know for a fact what all other transmission vendors run for line pressures?
Speaking of which, there was a thread here once about line pressures and I believe your transmission vendor posted they use 70psi base line pressure at idle and 130psi unlocked WOT and 140psi WOT lockup, in a trans with the high performance VB. DTT customers posted they set base line pressure 75-80psi and have 140psi WOT.
The bottom line of that discussion IMO was base line pressure at idle was lower for one vendor versus the other, but WOT throttle was the same. Personally I have never seen anyone dyno, drag race, sled pull, tow a trailer, etc. at idle.
My 97 stock pressures were around 60psi idle and 110 WOT. Seems to me 140 is increased in either case. So my opinion would be that other transmission vendors need items to stop leaks too. How come they dont use them?
Seems to me you are speaking for all transmission vendors out there. Do you know for a fact what all other transmission vendors run for line pressures?
Speaking of which, there was a thread here once about line pressures and I believe your transmission vendor posted they use 70psi base line pressure at idle and 130psi unlocked WOT and 140psi WOT lockup, in a trans with the high performance VB. DTT customers posted they set base line pressure 75-80psi and have 140psi WOT.
The bottom line of that discussion IMO was base line pressure at idle was lower for one vendor versus the other, but WOT throttle was the same. Personally I have never seen anyone dyno, drag race, sled pull, tow a trailer, etc. at idle.
My 97 stock pressures were around 60psi idle and 110 WOT. Seems to me 140 is increased in either case. So my opinion would be that other transmission vendors need items to stop leaks too. How come they dont use them?
Slybones
I am not speaking for all transmission builders I simply read their sights to learn what they do. Mentioning what I’ve seen on a sight does not make me a spokes person for any company. The point is that my vendor of choice and other vendors do not need [deleted insulting references out]. Yes they increase the pressure to a point. However they do not brag about having the highest pressures in the business. Can pressure be increased without causing major leaks? Apparently it can because other vendors are doing it. What happens if you rely totally on increased pressure to make it hold? Well then you run the highest pressures in the business and have leaks and then need those pretty parts.
Edward
* * *
Robin
TDR Admin
Post edited as noted.
03/20/03
Or are other vendors simply not fixing the leaks, because they dont want to spent the engineering money on it. My opinion is its an assumption on your part that no one else's transmission has internal leaks, and/or they are not addressing these items just because its not on their website.
Having spent lunch and surfed other transmission vendors sites. I see that BD and Suncoast for example do advertise higher line pressures. While BD does not advertise many of their internal improvements, I know for a fact they do have them. I have been to their shop, attended many dyno days, and have asked many questions to their techs. I see Suncoast also advertises many of the same stuff Stefan and Chris were talking about in this thread. Looks like they too have redesigned 2nd gear and 3rd gear with similar parts mentioned. They advervise improved lip seals and sealing rings.
While DTT may be the first with the servo I suspect the others will follow along in time. To imply DTT is the only one doing these things is BS. In this case they just happen to be first.
Anyways my post is to give credit to some of the other transmission vendors out there, opposed to my last statement which basically said they were cheap. I give them credit for moving in the right direction.
While DTT may be the first with the servo I suspect the others will follow along in time. To imply DTT is the only one doing these things is BS. In this case they just happen to be first.
Anyways my post is to give credit to some of the other transmission vendors out there, opposed to my last statement which basically said they were cheap. I give them credit for moving in the right direction.
Bindup?
I have followed this thread the auto transmission and bindup with great interest. It has been an excellent source of infotainment, (that’s information and entertainment all in one). After wading through all of the post’s I am left with wondering, who cares. What is the point to this thread? Is it, if I buy a DTT transmission I won’t have to worry about bindup? Or is it if I buy a ATS and install an Emjay controller I will be able to selectively set my transmission shift points to bindup and destroy my transmission. That is after all what started this controversy. There must be a point to this. Is my BD transmission doomed to failure do to bindup, or has BD or Suncoast or Goends or whoever figured out how to fix this problem. Do I have to take out my BD transmission, which has worked perfectly for the last 20000 miles and replace it with a DTT transmission or one-day it will bind up and explode. You can debate this forever, but what can I as the to quote, Strict-9 “the uneducated customer” supposed to do about it? Jeff
I have followed this thread the auto transmission and bindup with great interest. It has been an excellent source of infotainment, (that’s information and entertainment all in one). After wading through all of the post’s I am left with wondering, who cares. What is the point to this thread? Is it, if I buy a DTT transmission I won’t have to worry about bindup? Or is it if I buy a ATS and install an Emjay controller I will be able to selectively set my transmission shift points to bindup and destroy my transmission. That is after all what started this controversy. There must be a point to this. Is my BD transmission doomed to failure do to bindup, or has BD or Suncoast or Goends or whoever figured out how to fix this problem. Do I have to take out my BD transmission, which has worked perfectly for the last 20000 miles and replace it with a DTT transmission or one-day it will bind up and explode. You can debate this forever, but what can I as the to quote, Strict-9 “the uneducated customer” supposed to do about it? Jeff
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
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Renew
Subscribe
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Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
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The Perfect Collection Vol. II
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