The auto transmission and bindup!

[pwr2tow]

Please stay on topic!!



This thread was very informative between Strick-9 and Edward until everyone else started adding their two cents which threw the subject at hand off. It would be nice for once if all the cheer leaders would stay off the thread and keep it informational.



Ron

 

[Strick-9]

Edward,



You'll have to forgive me for not responding sooner. I was very busy yesterday and ended up working until 11 pm on a customer's truck.



It's clear to everyone reading from the enormous amount of phone calls/emails/and PMs that I received that you're here to question my character and not discuss anything technical. If you can't challenge me on a technical level head to head, then attack my character to attempt to discredit me. Honestly, it's a good plan. But I see through it. And I won't be drug into an emotional battle with you.



I've never had anything to hide here Edward. Your first post was on this thread so apparently you're new. I've been a posting member for about three years. I've been running DTT parts in my transmission for nearly that long as well. It has always been in my signature until last week. I changed my signature to only include my company name to be in accordance with forum guidelines.



I have now inserted "DTT installer" so the new people like yourself won't be misled. Thanks for the tip. If you would like to click on my Truck profile you can see all the products I use and support. It was just too much to list in a signature on every post.



You also insinuated that money and my DTT affiliation is what drives me to make these posts. Just so you'll know, DTT customers represent about 8-10% of my business so far. Loosing that affiliation wouldn't cripple my business by any means.



As with any startup business, money and time are in short supply. I would be financially much better off to walk away from the computer and the TDR and spend my time designing my website, advertising locally or even testing new products on my truck. But instead I'm here giving back to the TDR membership for all that I've learned from it through the years.



Now I'm going back to work. I won't respond to more personal attacks on this thread. This thread has too much good information in it to risk getting it closed down by the moderators.



-Chris

 

[Big White Beast]

Chris...........

Keep up the good work. This post has opened my eyes to a few problems I have had. It's people like you that make the TDR worth going to for information.



Thanks,



Garrett

 

[Edward]

Originally posted by Strick-9

"It's clear to everyone reading from the enormous amount of phone calls/emails/and PMs that I received that you're here to question my character...

Chris I feel it would be beneficial if you only spoke for yourself if we bring to many personalities into this it will get out of control.

Originally posted by Strick-9

"I've never had anything to hide here Edward. Your first post was on this thread so apparently you're new. I've been a posting member for about three years. ... It has always been in my signature until last week. I changed my signature to only include my company name to be in accordance with forum guidelines. "

Chris

I am glad you don't have anything to hide I never thought you did. Full disclosure of business affiliations is the only way to go. Open and honest disclosure from people who have business interests in the topics being discussed shows integrity. When a person chooses to disclose their business interests they are telling me the consumer that they have nothing to hide even in gray areas where positions taken have the possibility of producing personal profit. I am fully aware of that gray area now and as a consumer I have the information I need to make an informed evaluation. That is all I was asking. Thank you for showing your integrity and giving me the ability as a consumer to make a fully informed evaluation. I regret you feel insulted so let me assure you that was not my intent. So many times the nuances of conversation are lost in these types of forums. I am sure that if we were having the conversation in question face to face no misunderstanding would have occurred.

Originally posted by Strick-9

"I have now inserted "DTT installer" so the new people like yourself won't be misled. Thanks for the tip. If you would like to click on my Truck profile you can see all the products I use and support. It was just too much to list in a signature on every post. "

Chris thanks you just nailed the issue. I have been misled before. Thanks for removing the possibility of that happing here.

I hope this clears the air so we can get back to the topic at hand. If not lets take it to a PM and resolve any remaining issues.



Edward

 

[banshee]

FWIW I tried this 1-2 and 2-3 shifting situation last night in my truck. On the 1-2 (at about 15 mph) I could get the transmission to want to hesitate a little when making the shift at very light throttle. The 2-3 shift (~25mph), on the other hand, was always instantaneous no matter how light I applied the throttle. There was never any wavering of the tach before or after the shift, and it was always very positive. Just my oberservations... .



John

 

[Steve M]

Thanks Stefan, I checked this morning and found my kick down cable was adjusted properly out of luck and seat of pants feel after trying different settings. There must be something to your method!

I also found air in my transmission fluid, syphoned 1. 5 qts to proper level. Mushy and erratic shifts, dragging (literally), lower mpg(2mpg actual), and vibration are gone and the transmission operates like it should. It may have been "topped off" at the dealership last week when I pointed out the rear end was overlooked during PDI. I only hope damage wasn't done and is waiting to appear at 36,001 miles.

I spell my name Stephen. The Canadian gals call me Stefan.

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

SteveM,



Be careful when siphoning oil out of a transmisison, when checking the oil in the Chrysler transmission once side of the dipstick will read high one side will read low. The low side is the accurate side. Usually the difference between the two is 1. 5 lit res.



PS, good lookin girls can call me anything they want as long as they call me.

 

[Steve M]

The oil level on the dipstick was up to the Z bend in the stick. Way past the hash marks. It was normal operating temperature. When I syphoned it into a jar with a clear piece of 1/4" hose, it looked like carbonated cherry soda. It's now almost to the top of the hash marks on the back of the dipstick. I was having a hard time seeing the oil on the hashmark side. I can see them Canadian sweeties on the beach from 500 yards away but I can't see oil on a dipstick! It's spring break down... I'll send 'em back to you in a week or two!

 

[TKilgore]

? for Stefan

Would you please review the procedure for checking the cable with a DTT valve body?





Thanks



Tom





edit: O Yeah! 10-4 on the Spring Break

 

[BillGotthelf]

There must be something to Bill's (DTT) belief about the 2-3 bindup and the stress put on the 3rd gear system. I recieved my valve body kit, billet pistons (pretty red and blues-who can see these inside the trans ) hardened input shaft, 3 rd gear band, etc. Looking at the valve body kit from DTT and one at the trans place from ATS it appears that the two companies do things differently. Since both companies have very loyal followings I guess they both work. The DTT stuff is being installed now. I can't wait-I have way to much power for the old locally upgraded trans.

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Joe G.
I resemble that remark! I will be 65 before this week is over and ALL my moments are senior moments.

And how would you know? It's not like you can remember any of them!

(Many 's for any humor-challenged reading this. )

Chris, that was a good explanation of the 2-3 shift. Now, could you add in more of the mechanics of the shift? That is,

Starting with the trans shifting to 2nd. At what point is 2nd 'applied'? and how much more travel is there before the piston stops moving?

And when the front clutch is applied, at what point does it make contact and how much more travel is there before it stops 'applying'?

And, when the 2-3 shift occurs, isn't there always about 5 lbs. more '2nd release' pressure than '3rd apply'? (Due to that spring?) So the servo should release at the right time.

But, I'm forgetting the variously leaky mechanicals. Thus the release pressure isn't necessarily higher than the apply. Thus bind-up is more likely to occur.

Now, allow me to ease the subject to another concern. Is it possible that DC engineered a tradeoff? That they decided it was better to have some overlap wear in the trans, rather than having to build the rest of the drivetrain and frame to handle the shock of instant shifts?

Granted, armchair engineering is much like Monday morning quarterbacking. But at least in this case, understanding the big picture is as important as understanding the little ones.

Fest3er

 

[Speedo]

shift overlap

There has been a lot of discussion about shift overlap as if it

were an evil thing. If automatics, any make, shifted without any

overlap or flare it would be brutal on drivelines and rear ends

not to mention very uncomfortable to drive on the street. Race

versions of automatics go to length to come close to eliminating

any overlap and flare but if any of you have driven one it is not

something that you would want to drive on the street. It then

becomes a matter of design as to how much of either you have

in order to create an acceptable shift quality. I once worked for

a guy who owned a GMC pickup that he used as a company truck

and his personal car was a Cadillac. He was upset that his truck

didn't shift as smooth as his Caddy, the reason they didn't shift

the same was because they were designed to shift differently.

The transmissions in our trucks was given a compromise shift

quality which is acceptable to the majority of owners. Here on the

TDR we find enthusiasts who find the quality of the shift to be

a little too soft for our tastes. Then we decide to make the issue

even more complicated by adding weight, changing the total

gear ratio either by adding an overdrive unit or changing tire size

and then bumping up the horsepower. Now we have aftermarket

builders who attack the problems based on their understanding

of the problems and their own experience and there are threads

all over the place giving testimonials to the sucess of different

builders versions of various trannies. When someone offers an

explanation or testimony as to their understanding or experience

they get attacked. If someone offers an explanation, read it,

absorb it, ask questions if you don't understand what is being

offered. I know there those who enjoy grabbing a barley pop and

reading the transmission threads for the entertainment value but I,for

one, would rather see the threads keep to the high ground and

teach all of us as much as we care to learn rather provide some

sort of entertainment value. While different builders will have their

own way of doing things, "There's more than one way to skin a

cat. ", the reputable ones seem to be doing something right

whether they know why it works or not.



I guess thats more than 2 cents worth.

Gus

 

[Sled Puller]

Hmmmm. ,... ... ... . what does it mean when a stock truck with 120,000 miles on it, is doing what these guys descibes on the 3-4 shift, instead of 2-3?

 

[Snow man]

Sled puller, it could mean the Od unit was shimmed wrong,and that can give a 3-4 bind,but since its got 120K on it,and it just started,i doubt that is it. The OD directs could be warped and dragging on the 3-4 shift,but this is just a guess. Is this your new truck doing this?

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

Tkilgore,



Same proceedure as oem, except Bill likes to see 1/16" play .



Sled Puller,



Had to ask Bill what the heck you were talking about , he laughed and said Gene must have hit the books. Then he said tell you it wont save you from a whoopin in Muncie.

Most people dont realize this but the 2-3 overlap is the opposite of the 3-4 underlap shift.

Also as snoman said the shimming is also critical. Mis-shimming has been the cause of almost all the od failures we have seen.

We as a proeccedure check the shimming on every truck that comes into our shop.

 

[Snow man]

LMAO You cannot estimate time of death on a transmission,because some of them defy explanation,and last for yrs hurting if driven right,then ive seen perfectly good trannys have a hard part or planetary gearset failure and circulate the 1/2" of metal throughout the trans,basically making it a nice pile of scrap metal. I estimated mine to fail on the xmas day storm we had 18" of snow my guy was rocking my truck on and off for hrs ,getting stuck every 10 minutes or so . The transmission is still workin great,and its plowed another 60" of snow,and 200+ hrs of forward push/reverse push,daily driving and test drives . I changed the fluid after new yrs it was almost black, there is no way my transmission should even go into gear at all let alone perform with the best of them. I got another 3" of snow coming today, my transmission is still kicking strong.

 

[Godzilla1]

Is it possible to make these trans. a manual shift auto. and if so would this solve a problem. I'm 1 of the auto illiterates on this subject.

 

[Edward]

Originally posted by StakeMan

Just for grins, lets say the 2-3 overlap is as Strick-9 describes it. Then the only fix for it would cause a 2-3 shift flare. Wouldn't a flare cause more slippage on 3rd gear engagement since the rpm's would be higher from the flare? Which would cause the most damage?

StakeMan

Your point is 100% on target. There can be a logical transition/overlap as second releases and third applies or second can just let go and let the third gear clutches catch and hold the flair. A good analogy for this would be a tug of war. On one end we have a Cummins engine and it is being driven like someone stole it. On the other end you have the transmission that is allowed to have relay team. Let the contest begin. First gear started out and transitioned the load to second gear. Second has done all it can do and it is time to pass it over to third. At this point there are two schools of thought on how the transmission team should face its competition. One coach says when its time for second gear to pass the load to third that second gear should just let go of the rope. This coach believes that second gear should release the load completely before third gear can start to take hold. This coach doesn’t want any possibility of binding on this transmission team. Any volunteers out there who want to be third gear on this team?

The other coach says that second gear and third should synchronize the transition/overlap. Much like passing a baton in a relay race. This would be accomplished in a logical and well thought out manner allowing third gear to start taking the load as second is releasing it. This needs to be done as quickly and smoothly as possible to avoid excess friction and reducing the ware on the hands (friction materials). This coach believes if the transition is done properly neither second or third should get any rope burns.



Edward

 

[GLASMITHS]

"IF THE SHIFT TIMING IS CORRECT"

[Edward]



That is your last sentence (the substance of) then there would be no bindup or overlap, flare... ... But supposing some old_urd,like myself, could get his lap top out and change that timing? That could cause a lot of problems, huh?



Well, that happens to be exactly what BillK was talking about. If you mess with this timing of 2nd and 3rd shift, you are on your own dime. I'm certainly glad that you have solved this problem, and everyone is in agreement with that conclusion.



Thank you. We can now get on with life.



[deleted incorrect spelling of user comments directed toward - TDR Admin - 03/20/03]

 

[SlyBones]

Thing is, the baton is not handed off perfectly in every race. If the coach trained his runners properly, they hand off correctly most the time. But reality is, it does not work that way every time. Sometimes the 2nd runner over runs the 3rd runner and they bind up in the middle of the track. Especially when external people mess with the 3rd runners mark, and he/she starts too late.