the death of the diesel pickup

[sstefanini]

Why doesn't the government regulate oil company pricing? As of right now liquid petroleum is the only energy source without government oversight on pricing manipulation. Electric power producers and natural gas companies somehow still stay in business and they aren't allowed to charge whatever they want.

 

[HBarlow]

The "excess profits" as some see it which are enjoyed by oil companies provide the salaries of hundreds of thousands of employees of the major oil companies such as oil refinery workers and of the oil industry support industries like drilling crews, and the crews that overhaul and maintain drilling rigs, truck drivers who drive the distribution trucks, and hundreds of other companies I may not even be aware of. * They are mostly blue collar workers engaged in difficult, dirty, and dangerous work. * Would you deprive them of their income?* The profits of oil companies also provide the return on investment of hundreds of thousands of individuals saving directly for their own retirement or indirectly in the pension funds of thousands of teachers, other state employees, and others who invest in company retirement funds.

Would you deprive these investors who loan the oil companies the money they need to explore, find, drill and produce, transport, refine, and distribute oil and oil products of a satisfactory return on their investment?



Why don't you propose, instead, that the federal, state, and local governments who actually receive a larger "profit" on each gallon of diesel fuel or gasoline than the oil companies who produce it reduce their part of the price of a gallon of fuel?



Would you like for the government to step in and arbitrarily decide that the profit of whatever industry or company you work for has excess profits and your salary or wages are too high and cut your income?



What you are proposing when you suggest that the government, which has no constitutional authority whatsoever to regulate the oil industry, is socialism! Socialism is a system where the central government owns the means of production and determines who receives the rewards and in what amount. I for one do not want socialism. Do your remember the USSR?* The Soviet Union?* More properly stated... ... . the former Soviet Union. * The Soviet Union was based on socialism. * It provided poverty and misery in equal amounts for all its citizens except for the upper elites who were members of the Communist Party. * The system collapsed for many reasons but primarily because socialism destroys the incentive to work hard and produce and because it is extremely inefficient because nobody who works under socialism likes the results or works very hard.



The same government that has the power to provide also has the power to take away. * What if the governent which you want to run the oil industry decides instead of providing it to you at a low price decides to reduce the quantity which you can buy to say ... ... . 5 gallons per week?*



It is very sad in my opinion that so many Americans know and understand so little about their own country that they would gladly give up their freedom, the same freedom that our ancestors have fought and died for and men and women are currently fighting and dying for, in order to have cheap diesel fuel, free health care, or something else provided for them and someone else's expense.



I keep saying it: the price of diesel fuel is high because the raw material used to refine it ----- crude oil ----- costs $100/barrel on the world market now. * It is due to supply and demand. * How is that the fault of the oil companies?



Harvey

 

[Champane Flight]

Think global, it sucks...

We as Americans are finally paying what Europe has paid for decades for fuel. Our demand is still rising, the cost has not been a factor in reducing consumption. I still see people starting their cars and leaving them running for a half an hour for warm ups, these are the ones who you figure cannot afford it! They are the first to belleyache about it also. China is the big difference right now, their use is rising dramatically, while our interference in the middle east has destabilized supplys, and prices.



I would venture to say that the system of supply and demand still works, but we refuse to test it as it may be inconvenient for us. God help us if we do not buy fuel for a couple days! I have filled the tank on my 95 and it sits for weeks until I NEED it, I bought a big diesel to PULL, not to run to the store for milk. I have a TDI Bug for that. . . I still believe that if we shut the pumps down for a couple of days, prices would drop!



Another factor is the government interferance with the oil companys. They have mandated ULSD, they have mandated testing requirements, they have mandated boutique fuels for certain areas. Refinerys and terminals throughout America spend millions conforming to these regulations. Infrastructure has not been upgraded for several decades, regulations upon these infrastructures have caused many companys to postpone upgrades until now. So all this so-called profit they have seen is being thrown back into upgrading and maintaining infrastructure.



I have been watching drilling rigs sprouting all over the Texas panhandle. It is now economically feasable to drill here in the USA again, we have the oil in existing fields. We are now into oil sands/shale, but this costs more. I would say there is only one way to reduce prices that makes sense, CUTBACK ON USE! If we get the government involved it will be a disaster, they have not proven themselves to be good economical caretakers, or good at much they do for that matter.



We are a spoiled people, we are fat, overweight, slobs, that depend on our technology to the point of stupid. We moved to the country because we like the view, then we biatch about how much it costs to go back and forth to the city! We make a trip to the store three times a day because we are too lazy to make a grocery list! We haul our kids to soccer, school, band, and other functions because they have forgotten how to walk? We have made ourselves slaves to oil, we depend everyday on oil, we worship oil, without it we could not live in the country, we could not eat! Take a look America, if you think YOU are not in this game, look again, be honest...



I am guilty also, but I am not going cry about it at the pump, I will pay, and continue to love my big ole CTD. It will just have to be driven a little less.



OK, OK, I am bored, it is snowing again!

 

[BSMcCauley]

Why doesn't the government regulate oil company pricing? As of right now liquid petroleum is the only energy source without government oversight on pricing manipulation. Electric power producers and natural gas companies somehow still stay in business and they aren't allowed to charge whatever they want.

They do. EPA requires a specific fuel recipe in each major metropolitan area to meet whatever their environmental agenda is in that area. Trouble is that seldom is a refinery capable of making that particular blend of fuel the closest one to that are. So now you can add extra transportation to the cost of refining in addition to also restricting supply to that area. Remember a few years back when a pipeline north out of the St Louis area ruptured and the fuel price in Chicago soared? That's because the only refineries capable of building "Chicago" fuel were sending it through that pipeline and using rail cars and trucks couldn't get it up there fast enough. After several weeks of this EPA temporarily relaxed the fuel blend regulation for that area which made it possible for any refinery to send fuel that way and the price dropped like a rock nearly immediately.



If you notice where oil companies are exploring and producing new oil reserves you will see that they are in areas that are only economically possible with a fairly high price of oil. If coastal Florida and California were opened up to oil production, you would see the price of oil -- and the amount imported from the Arabs -- drop like a rock because it is much less expensive to explore and produce on the continental shelf than in deep water and other areas. It would pretty much shut that little loudmouth in Venezuela up too because his oil is junk by world standards and about the only market he has for it is two oil refineries in the southern US. Did you know that when world oil prices were around $70/bbl, the stuff from Venezuela was worth only about $8/bbl because requiring specific special equipment to process it? And he was threatening to cut US off?? Nobody else wants his crap!



Another thing: Did you know that oil companies make on average about 10 cents a gallon on fuel? (for oil companines, the real money is in crude oil, not fuel oil) Your government jacks the price by 3-6 times that amount in taxes. If you are worried about oil company profits, you should really be ticked off about how bad your representatives and senators are screwing you!#@$%!

 

[HBarlow]

We as Americans are finally paying what Europe has paid for decades for fuel. Our demand is still rising, the cost has not been a factor in reducing consumption. I still see people starting their cars and leaving them running for a half an hour for warm ups, these are the ones who you figure cannot afford it! They are the first to belleyache about it also. China is the big difference right now, their use is rising dramatically, while our interference in the middle east has destabilized supplys, and prices.



I would venture to say that the system of supply and demand still works, but we refuse to test it as it may be inconvenient for us. God help us if we do not buy fuel for a couple days! I have filled the tank on my 95 and it sits for weeks until I NEED it, I bought a big diesel to PULL, not to run to the store for milk. I have a TDI Bug for that. . . I still believe that if we shut the pumps down for a couple of days, prices would drop!



Another factor is the government interferance with the oil companys. They have mandated ULSD, they have mandated testing requirements, they have mandated boutique fuels for certain areas. Refinerys and terminals throughout America spend millions conforming to these regulations. Infrastructure has not been upgraded for several decades, regulations upon these infrastructures have caused many companys to postpone upgrades until now. So all this so-called profit they have seen is being thrown back into upgrading and maintaining infrastructure.



I have been watching drilling rigs sprouting all over the Texas panhandle. It is now economically feasable to drill here in the USA again, we have the oil in existing fields. We are now into oil sands/shale, but this costs more. I would say there is only one way to reduce prices that makes sense, CUTBACK ON USE! If we get the government involved it will be a disaster, they have not proven themselves to be good economical caretakers, or good at much they do for that matter.



We are a spoiled people, we are fat, overweight, slobs, that depend on our technology to the point of stupid. We moved to the country because we like the view, then we biatch about how much it costs to go back and forth to the city! We make a trip to the store three times a day because we are too lazy to make a grocery list! We haul our kids to soccer, school, band, and other functions because they have forgotten how to walk? We have made ourselves slaves to oil, we depend everyday on oil, we worship oil, without it we could not live in the country, we could not eat! Take a look America, if you think YOU are not in this game, look again, be honest...



I am guilty also, but I am not going cry about it at the pump, I will pay, and continue to love my big ole CTD. It will just have to be driven a little less.



OK, OK, I am bored, it is snowing again!

Wow, I'm impressed. Remembering my experience on the Political forum I never thought I'd agree with anything Champane Flight had to say but I think I agree with every word you wrote there except for the part about "our interference in the middle east destabilizing supplies and prices. " But I'll leave that alone.



Harvey

 

[DCreed]

just a co-incidence?#@$%!http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/...-estimated-record-2007-results_461494_11.html

 

[HBarlow]

Yes, the coincidence results from the fact that the oil companies earn approximately $0. 10/gallon and sell a record volume of gasoline and diesel fuel.



Your friends in government, federal, state, and local, "earn" under threat of fines or imprisonment about $0. 50/gallon and they also are coincidentally taking in record revenue on the oil companies not to mention the corporate income tax and federal income tax on the earnings of every salaried or hourly wage earner and investor in the industry.



Harvey

 

[DCreed]

WOW! with that kind of cash we should be driving on some REALLY nice roads!:-laf

 

[HBarlow]

WOW! with that kind of cash we should be driving on some REALLY nice roads!:-laf

Yes, in theory. But your friends in government routinely misappropriate the funds and use it to buy votes in many and various ways. Handouts to those who might be persuaded to vote for them, and wasteful pork barrel projects for their campaign contributors (read bribes).



Harvey

 

[DCreed]

Harvey, have you READ my posts? I have no friends in government!:-laf

 

[HBarlow]

DCreed,



Yes, but I don't remember any specifics of what you wrote in the arena of politics other than anti-business comments.



My comments are based on the premise that it is safe to assume that those who criticise big business such as big oil, and resent the fact that a big service corporation like Exxon-Mobile is entitled to make a profit, are democrats who vote for candidates who are committed to taxing those of us who are productive and spending our money on more government, more social welfare, more handouts, more regulation, and more programs and laws that restrict our economy and freedom.



Am I wrong?



Harvey

 

[TAbbott]

Harvey, you're spot-on!

 

[Champane Flight]

And the Republicants?

DCreed,



Yes, but I don't remember any specifics of what you wrote in the arena of politics other than anti-business comments.



My comments are based on the premise that it is safe to assume that those who criticise big business such as big oil, and resent the fact that a big service corporation like Exxon-Mobile is entitled to make a profit, are democrats who vote for candidates who are committed to taxing those of us who are productive and spending our money on more government, more social welfare, more handouts, more regulation, and more programs and laws that restrict our economy and freedom.



Am I wrong?



Harvey

And the other side of the isle are all geniuses with your best interests in mind? Riiiiiiigggghhhhtttt!



#ad

 

[DCreed]

DCreed,



Yes, but I don't remember any specifics of what you wrote in the arena of politics other than anti-business comments.



My comments are based on the premise that it is safe to assume that those who criticise big business such as big oil, and resent the fact that a big service corporation like Exxon-Mobile is entitled to make a profit, are democrats who vote for candidates who are committed to taxing those of us who are productive and spending our money on more government, more social welfare, more handouts, more regulation, and more programs and laws that restrict our economy and freedom.



Am I wrong?



Harvey

NEVER ASSUME! I myself own a small buisness and make a FAIR profit while still giving exceptional service to my customers, often going above and beyond as needed because that is MY personal sense of honor. THAT is what this country lacks of these days. I could charge more and make more ,then tell myself "hey, that's buisness. " But unlike "big oil" and many others as of late, I can't rape and pillage from my customers for my personal gain. Although I suppose I am "entitled to make a profit. "

 

[HBarlow]

Yep, as I assumed, you are an anti-business democrat. It always makes me shake my head in amazement but there are many like you who even though you may own a business you envy and hate those individuals and corporations who are more successful. I'd bet your business is a one man operation without employees.



That is the success of the democrat party. Indoctrinating ordinary Americans with their class envy and socialist theories to believe that it is better to let government take from productive Americans, redistribute their wealth to whoever and wherever government bureaucrats decide is best, and regulating/controlling us to the point that business, the great strenght of America, can no longer prosper.



You asked so I'll attempt to answer. The Republican Party of today is not lead by conservatives but by politicians who, like democrats, put personal political gain above principle.



Conservatives, like myself, believe in limited government, economic and personal/individual freedoms, low taxes, the Constitution, a strong national defense, love for our country, the right of every American to succeed without unwanted regulation, and so forth.



Each to his own I guess.



Harvey

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

You asked so I'll attempt to answer. The Republican Party of today is not lead by conservatives but by politicians who, like democrats, put personal political gain above principle.



Conservatives, like myself, believe in limited government, economic and personal/individual freedoms, low taxes, the Constitution, a strong national defense, love for our country, the right of every American to succeed without unwanted regulation, and so forth.

Sad but true...



BUT, it's also true that many of the principles of a progressive, but non-abusive, non exploiting Capitalistic Democracy are ALSO much perverted and corrupted from the original founding father's intent.



As far as I can see, it was always intended as a "Land of equal opportunity - AND benefits - for all", but in too many instances, has migrated into a "ends justify the means", and "Let's be sure to get ours while the getting's good, and to Hell with those we trample over and/or destroy in the process"...



And it's EXACTLY that mindset of conscienceless big business hand in hand with corrupt politics that begins the leanings of a disillusioned society towards Socialism...



$$$ always buy more results than votes!



I personally feel that much of the operations of big business are JUST AS CORRUPT and self serving as our politicians - why WOULDN'T they be, and why would we be reasonably expected to believe otherwise?

 

[HBarlow]

Sad but true...



BUT, it's also true that many of the principles of a progressive, but non-abusive, non exploiting Capitalistic Democracy are ALSO much perverted and corrupted from the original founding father's intent.



As far as I can see, it was always intended as a "Land of equal opportunity - AND benefits - for all", but in too many instances, has migrated into a "ends justify the means", and "Let's be sure to get ours while the getting's good, and to Hell with those we trample over and/or destroy in the process"...



And it's EXACTLY that mindset of conscienceless big business hand in hand with corrupt politics that begins the leanings of a disillusioned society towards Socialism...



$$$ always buy more results than votes!



I personally feel that much of the operations of big business are JUST AS CORRUPT and self serving as our politicians - why WOULDN'T they be, and why would we be reasonably expected to believe otherwise?

Gary,



I couldn't disagree with you more. As you usually do, you wrote a bunch of emotional statements and accusations not backed up by fact.



Can you point to the line in the US Constitution where you found the "Land of equal opportunity - AND benefits - for all"? I think you found that is some progressive or socialist doctrine, maybe something written by the modern Socialist (democrat) Party. The founding fathers wrote the Constitution to provide "equal opportunity" for all. Not equal benefits. It is the democrats who have perverted the Constitution to mean, in their warped little minds, "equal results. " That is a surefire recipe for socialism and a mess exactly like the former Soviet Union.



The great strength of America is that any man or woman from whatever humble beginnings can create a small business and if the product or service he or she provides is valued sufficiently by his fellow citizens he or she can sell the products or services with great success thereby becoming quite successful, even wealthy. It is actually fairly common to see ordinary Americans achieve a modicum of wealth. Sam Walton is one example that everyone is familiar with (although a socialist probably hates him also). There is nothing wrong with the Constitution or the American capitalist system. What many like yourself apparently resent is that it bestows the rewards on the brightest and most productive. Socialism, or Progressives, whatever the current preferred label is, are jealous, envious, and resentful of success so they advocate taking from the brightest and most productive and redistributing wealth to the least productive in our society. Basic Socialism.

Equal results not equal opportunity.



Of course there is corruption in big business, it is a part of human nature, but you offer no evidence that big oil companies are corrupt, only for your resentment of big oil companies. I'd bet that if you had invested in the stock of one or more of the major oil companies you'd be very pleased to see their record profits. I happen to have a good personal friend who is a TDR member who funds his early retirement largely with his dividends from owning stock in a major oil company. Charging a fair price for their products is hardly corrupt. Political office holders taking favors, bribes, and shoveling special government decisions and contracts to contributors is Corruption.



I suspect that your position is simply based on jealousy, envy, and resentment of those who are more successful than you are and, like most modern democrats, you feel that others should provide for the level of comfort you feel entitled to. Just because you WANT low priced diesel fuel does not mean the major oil companies should provide it for you. They are entitled to the legitimate profits they earn and it is simply not your business unless you own stock in the oil company. Maybe you're mistaking the CEOs of the major oil companies for the democrats you vote for.



Gary, have you ever taken a college economics class?



Harvey

 

[DCreed]

Harvey , please humor us and try to post without bipartisanisms and name calling. This is not the political forum. This thread is about the death of the diesel pickup, not how you hate communism. Most vehicles used by the former USSR were diesel by the way!

 

[DJW]

Wiredawg, in the interest of capacity correctness, (just made that up)(couldn't think of the proper word), one Liter or better yet, Litre of liquid is less than an Imperial Quart but greater than an American Quart. (aspiring Weights and Measure and Fluff Inspector).

 

[DJW]

Of the Standard of Living re, Britain (England is just England, Britain is England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales) more correctly, I read to the effect that the Wages were on par with American or higher, which means very little, it's the cost of living that equates the Standard, and Standards can be argumentative, as each State and District in the USA. For instance the price of Beer, (the Gold Standard for English speaking countries around the World) I can purchase (buy) British (or if you wish English) Beer here Brewed, Bottled and Shipped to the USA cheaper than in the UK, (UK, solved that Britain England thing) owing to the Crippling Tax of Essential Products desired by the Working Class, however many consumer products are of a much better quality in the UK, but then again that's in the eyes of the beholder. As it's said ,"Comparisons are Odious" and actually have little or no effect on the opinions of people. People there complain of the price of fuel but a good fart would propel one from coast to coast.