the death of the diesel pickup

[SNiebaum]

Gary,



Would you be kind enough to tell us where you got that little bit of news about England having a higher standard of living than the US? Sounds like something from the left wing media.

Here is the original story as published on January 6.

UK living standards outstrip US

 

[TFucili]

I have not posted for a while on this thread, because I don't really care to get into a pizzing contest, but I will make one further comment. I love the United States of America. While I did not serve in the military, I have the highest regard for people who do/did serve, I had an uncle who was a PT boater(PT337)who was captured and assumed summarily executed by the Japanese, my dad served, and I do not think that my not serving makes me less of a patriot than anyone else. As a second generation small business owner, I am a devout believer in capitalism, but I am not blind, or naive enough to think that it cannot be rigged to do disservice to the general good. Do you fellows honestly not have an issue with the so-called Enron loophole, or any other means which allows traders to unduly influence the price of petro products, or any other for that matter? The cost of everything goes up. That is a fact of life. I am not suggesting that gas should be $0. 39 again, but I firmly believe that we are paying somewhat more than we need to due to these circumstances. Saying so does not make me a socialist, and I bristle at the suggestion. Zealotry on either side is a very bad thing. Jefferson said, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. " Don't let your dedication to freedom allow others to usurp it to use it against us.



God Bless the USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I have not posted for a while on this thread, because I don't really care to get into a pizzing contest, but I will make one further comment. I love the United States of America. While I did not serve in the military, I have the highest regard for people who do/did serve, I had an uncle who was a PT boater(PT337)who was captured and assumed summarily executed by the Japanese, my dad served, and I do not think that my not serving makes me less of a patriot than anyone else. As a second generation small business owner, I am a devout believer in capitalism, but I am not blind, or naive enough to think that it cannot be rigged to do disservice to the general good. Do you fellows honestly not have an issue with the so-called Enron loophole, or any other means which allows traders to unduly influence the price of petro products, or any other for that matter? The cost of everything goes up. That is a fact of life. I am not suggesting that gas should be $0. 39 again, but I firmly believe that we are paying somewhat more than we need to due to these circumstances. Saying so does not make me a socialist, and I bristle at the suggestion. Zealotry on either side is a very bad thing. Jefferson said, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. " Don't let your dedication to freedom allow others to usurp it to use it against us.



God Bless the USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AMEN! And very well said!

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Speaking just for myself, I've always felt that in America I could acheive as much as my ability and effort was worth. I haven't run across any robber barons who have deprived me of anything and actually feel that I've achieved a level of success and financial reward that I am comfortable with. Not wealthy certainly, but quite comfortable. America has been pretty good to me. I'm grateful to live here and be an American.



Harvey

I certainly agree for the most part - though I'm also convinced our society is paying FAR more for the "Liberty" of runaway, uncontrolled Capitalism than actually justified.



Yeah, America is FAR better than many areas of the world - but comparing our nation to some of the "Armpit" areas of the world is deception, and hardly a true measure - how about comparing with Canada, or some of the other European countries, such as Switzerland - most likely a FAR different result there!



There has been a RAPID shift in world economies, many in just the last few decades - and basing the comparisons of this society with Military or other travels from 30 or 40 years ago - or in vastly unimproved countries, is meaningless and inaccurate.



But blind and ignorant support of those who steadily undermine and destroy what took so long and much BLOOD, sweat and tears to build, is much like cheerfully holding our own hanging rope, as our executioner finishes building our gallows!



Where's our country headed today - depends on whether you're a Pollyanna, or Chicken Little:



Overseas Investors Buy Aggressively in U. S. - New York Times



Some quotes:

For much of the world, the United States is now on sale at discount prices. With credit tight, unemployment growing and worries mounting about a potential recession, American business and government leaders are courting foreign money to keep the economy growing. Foreign investors are buying aggressively, taking advantage of American duress and a weak dollar to snap up what many see as bargains, while making inroads to the world's largest market.

And:

With a growing share of investment coming from so-called sovereign wealth funds — vast pools of money controlled by governments from China to the Middle East — lawmakers and regulators are calling for greater scrutiny to ensure that foreign countries do not gain influence over the financial system or military-related technology. On the presidential campaign trail, the Democratic candidates have begun to focus on these foreign funds, calling for international rules that would make them more transparent.

Some labor unions see the acceleration of foreign takeovers as the latest indignity wrought by globalization.



“It's the culmination of a series of fool's errands,” said Leo W. Gerard, international president of the United Steelworkers. “We've hollowed out our industrial base and run up this massive trade deficit, and now the countries that have built the deficits are coming back to buy up our assets. It's like spitting in your face. ”

The United States has lost more than three million manufacturing jobs since 2001, with foreign trade often taking the blame. Foreign-made goods now account for roughly one-third of all wares consumed in the United States, roughly tripling their share over the last quarter-century. The soaring price of oil and a widening trade deficit underscore how the American economy is increasingly vulnerable to decisions made far away.

There's LOTS more, all good reading - and while I don't consider myself a "Chicken Little", I really don't see much "Pollyanna" in the article! Do any here REALLY see the selling off of America at discount prices as a GOOD thing for our nation?

 

[HBarlow]

Here is the original story as published on January 6.

UK living standards outstrip US

I read the article in the link. There are a number of contradictions within the article. A fundamental contradiction stated is that although the writer claimed a higher national GDP Brits pay higher prices for goods and services. I am not familiar with that publication and don't know their biases but just reading the "facts" in the article clearly dispute the writer's conclusion.



Brits live in much smaller homes than we do, are forced to drive tiny little cars, and there are no large RVs like we own built there. There may be a very small handful of larger ones imported and sold there but if so, they are rare.



I reject the claim that Brits enjoy a higher standard of living.



Harvey

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Brits live in much smaller homes than we do, are forced to drive tiny little cars, and there are no large RVs like we own built there. There may be a very small handful of larger ones imported and sold there but if so, they are rare.



AHhhh, you mean exactly the SAME direction WE are heading, as the "No 1 country of the world"? :-laf:-laf



I reject the claim that Brits enjoy a higher standard of living.

Yeah, reject what you prefer to not believe, because it conflicts with your pre-conceived views and opinions, what you really, DESPERATELY WANT to believe - yeah, THAT'S the ticket! :-laf:-laf



AH, DENIAL is SUCH a comforting thing!



HEY, do ya suppose that if *I* "reject" that the price of fuel is $3. 50 a gallon, THAT will go away too? :-laf:-laf

 

[HBarlow]

I As a second generation small business owner, I am a devout believer in capitalism, but I am not blind, or naive enough to think that it cannot be rigged to do disservice to the general good. Do you fellows honestly not have an issue with the so-called Enron loophole, or any other means which allows traders to unduly influence the price of petro products, or any other for that matter? The cost of everything goes up. That is a fact of life. I am not suggesting that gas should be $0. 39 again, but I firmly believe that we are paying somewhat more than we need to due to these circumstances. Saying so does not make me a socialist, and I bristle at the suggestion. Zealotry on either side is a very bad thing. Jefferson said, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. " Don't let your dedication to freedom allow others to usurp it to use it against us.



God Bless the USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How can an economy that depends upon the buying/spending habits of 300 million individuals be rigged?



No, I honestly do not have an issue with the so-called Enron loophole. What is an Enron loophole? My understanding is that bad management practices caused a major corporation to decline and as it did, Enron executives and their accounting firm falsely inflated earnings and underreported expenses, and sold their stock, until they could hide the problem no longer. The CEO died before he went to trial and several major executives lost their fortunes and were sent to prison. It is sad that many Enron employees lost their savings but that is human nature. Some people are simply unable to resist the temptation and some are fundamentally dishonest. The only difference between a corporate executive who steals from his company and an ordinary citizen who purchases, uses, damages, then returns merchandise to Wal-Mart for a refund is the size and scope of the dishonesty. Both acts are immoral and illegal. For Enron employees, any financial advisor will tell you to diversify your investments. If they had their entire nest eggs invested in Enron they made bad decisions.



I have heard rumors and conspiracy theories about traders influencing the price of crude oil imports and do not know if they are true, or false. I do not accept the premise that one trader could have such a large influence on a segment of the economy amounting to billions of dollars. It really is not that difficult to understand. Increased demand for crude oil due to higher consumption in the US and the growing industrialization of India and China combined with uncertainty in the middle east has caused the price of crude to rise from something like $40/barrel just several years ago to $100/barrel now and the US dollar has declined in value so it requires more dollars to buy. Why do so many refuse to accept that? Everybody knows that if nobody wants to buy your old used up Dodge-Cummins it is not worth much but, on the other hand, if ten people are trying to talk you into selling it to them to pull a trailer to start a landscaping business, your Dodge is worth more money to the buyer. It is simple supply and demand. It is nothing more than human behavior.



I don't like high prices any more than anyone else but it is a reality. I'm not going to criticise America because diesel is $3. 35/gallon and not going to dream up amazing conspiracy theories to explain it like some. I'm sure as heck not going to propose nationalizing the oil industry or any other industry because I feel entitled to health care, cheap fuel, or cheap goods and services. Free enterprise determines the price unless government steps in and screws up the market.



Harvey

 

[DCreed]

HEY, do ya suppose that if *I* "reject" that the price of fuel is $3. 50 a gallon, THAT will go away too? :-laf:-laf

YES! it will be $3. 75 before you know it!!:-laf

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I suppose I should really insert here, that all my comments on this thread to date, are purely for discussion purposes, covering differing viewpoints and opinions - I sincerely consider ALL involved here as friends - absolutely NO hostility intended!

 

[HBarlow]

Gary,



You must be a very unhappy old man, miserable in your retirement years. I feel sorry for you but unless you or a family member has suffered some tragic misfortune you have only yourself to blame. Nobody owes you a comfortable retirement.



Best wishes for a happier life.



Harvey

 

[Wiredawg]

Double WOW!



So many comments to respond to. Not every comment is directed at everyone, though just to combine mine to addres the many comment:



I smelled the coffee all over the world and I don't think that gives me more right to express an opinion than anyone else... I do believe that those of us who have lived in other countries around the world have the insight of see life elswhere first hand. The point is thanks to serving in other countries, I have experieced 25 years ago what you are experiencing now with the price of fuel.



Although I won't say you won't find any Dodge Ram Cummins in England or Germany, I can tell you you won't find many. My brother in law who lives in Germany, loves my diesel trucks, but the fact of the matter is he cannot offord to buy, operate or maintain one. He has a 1. 4 Liter Opel. The few RVs over there, which they call caravans, are small and not comparble to our's.



We can define quality of life in many ways, but I consider we have the best not because of some statistical study or narrowly defined measures. I consider the fact that most of us live in comfortable homes, eat regularly and pretty well, drive what we want, hence us in the TDR, and despite the rising cost of fuel, most of us will continue to drive Ram diesels. Some of us still have our 5ers and use them. Will this always be the case? Time will tell.



Now, I realize there are a lot of folks out there who really feel the price of fuel and other thing in the US and the world is a conspiracy and good on ya. We all have to believe something.



Many of us have had to make choices on what we drive or what we own all our lives. I used ot own Toyota trucks becuse the US was making crap at the time and I couldn't afford the fuel. My wife's '03 Ram has been the best quality vehicle we've owned... my '02 Ram is the worst. The US is beating the bad quality the've had so many years and we will survive the price of fuel.



To roll this back to the top, I don't think all of us will see "the death of the diesel truck", but some will. Maybe they will go with one of the smaller ones in the future the gets 25 plus. Toyota had some nice turbo diesel trucks and Land Cruisers overseas and we'll see comparable Amercan products.



So, now It's time to go out and wash the fleet... we had rain last week and they all need cleaning.



Best to all and keep on posting.



Wiredawg

 

[TFucili]

How can an economy that depends upon the buying/spending habits of 300 million individuals be rigged?

No, I honestly do not have an issue with the so-called Enron loophole. What is an Enron loophole? My understanding is that bad management practices caused a major corporation to decline and as it did, Enron executives and their accounting firm falsely inflated earnings and underreported expenses, and sold their stock, until they could hide the problem no longer. The CEO died before he went to trial and several major executives lost their fortunes and were sent to prison. It is sad that many Enron employees lost their savings but that is human nature. Some people are simply unable to resist the temptation and some are fundamentally dishonest. The only difference between a corporate executive who steals from his company and an ordinary citizen who purchases, uses, damages, then returns merchandise to Wal-Mart for a refund is the size and scope of the dishonesty. Both acts are immoral and illegal. For Enron employees, any financial advisor will tell you to diversify your investments. If they had their entire nest eggs invested in Enron they made bad decisions.

I have heard rumors and conspiracy theories about traders influencing the price of crude oil imports and do not know if they are true, or false. I do not accept the premise that one trader could have such a large influence on a segment of the economy amounting to billions of dollars. It really is not that difficult to understand. Increased demand for crude oil due to higher consumption in the US and the growing industrialization of India and China combined with uncertainty in the middle east has caused the price of crude to rise from something like $40/barrel just several years ago to $100/barrel now and the US dollar has declined in value so it requires more dollars to buy. Why do so many refuse to accept that? Everybody knows that if nobody wants to buy your old used up Dodge-Cummins it is not worth much but, on the other hand, if ten people are trying to talk you into selling it to them to pull a trailer to start a landscaping business, your Dodge is worth more money to the buyer. It is simple supply and demand. It is nothing more than human behavior.

I don't like high prices any more than anyone else but it is a reality. I'm not going to criticise America because diesel is $3. 35/gallon and not going to dream up amazing conspiracy theories to explain it like some. I'm sure as heck not going to propose nationalizing the oil industry or any other industry because I feel entitled to health care, cheap fuel, or cheap goods and services. Free enterprise determines the price unless government steps in and screws up the market.

Harvey
Harvey

I had promised myself not to post again on this contentious thread, but I'll make an exception:-laf

The Enron Loophole, see article,is very real. It was slipped in by those good ol' boys, and allows a large percentage of energy trading to take place in a completely unsupervised fashion. Most trading entails some oversight to minimize the risk of manipulation, but this skirts it entirely. It is for real and is costing us all $$$$ every day. Please do not dismiss out of hand something which is quite real, but that you are apparently unaware of. Google it, and you'll find plenty to read about. This is not a tin-foil-hat theory. I can't find the article right now, but I recently read that even the Arabs are unhappy with the disconnect between market prices and reality. It was also widely reported that a lone trader managed to drive the price of crude past the $100 mark "just to say he did it". Again, pointing to an obvious flaw in the system is NOT criticizing the American way, it is defending it. I do not endorse nationalizing the energy industry. Free enterprise means the market is free, not rigged. Having oversights in place to make sure we are not getting hosed is not socialism, and it is prudent to do so.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

YUP - I wrote:

I suppose I should really insert here, that all my comments on this thread to date, are purely for discussion purposes, covering differing viewpoints and opinions - I sincerely consider ALL involved here as friends - absolutely NO hostility intended!

And got this neat reply:

Gary,



You must be a very unhappy old man, miserable in your retirement years. I feel sorry for you but unless you or a family member has suffered some tragic misfortune you have only yourself to blame. Nobody owes you a comfortable retirement.



Best wishes for a happier life.



Harvey

My earlier post musta passed right over yer head there, Harvey :-laf:-laf



Pretty happy retirement here - even in the sticks of eastern Oregon - home of even higher fuel prices. Fortunately, not much driving involved, so we personally, are somewhat isolated from elevated fuel costs, other than the peripheral effects of increases in related items - virtually everything we buy.



Sorry you feel so abused and picked upon - not my intent, as indicated earlier - I guess you just won't accept a countering view as anything other than an attack - never was my goal...



Meanwhile, things on this end are looking just fine, thanks. . :-laf:-laf

 

[DCreed]

I think the real issue isn't that we are the best country to live in (I dont see that as arguable) but rather concern for where its going and if these great standards of living can remain when we are too busy living to notice or care about what's going on around us in the country, the markets, and the eco systems of the world. We are the last "Super power" country and with great power comes great responsibility. (heard that somewhere) When I said we needed to give the 3rd world nations the green tech to prosper, it is not a mere handout as we are getting ALOT for our money. for what good is ALL the money with no planet to spend it on? What legacy will we leave our kids and grandkids? What inheritance is better than clean water and air, and not having to hide from the Sun because there's no atmoshere protecting us? I love my truck ,but if its demise ensures my childrens future I'd rather ride a bicycle.

 

[HBarlow]

Sorry, I pay no attention whatsoever to that phony fraud old socialist karl levin. I place no credibility on anything he says. There is nothing he could do short of retiring from the senate that would interest me in the slightest. Blow dried empty suits like him "introduce legislation" every day that has no purpose other than fooling those who like his politics. Now if you told me karl levin introduced legislation to permit offshore oil drilling or oil drilling in ANWAR I'd pay attention. That would reduce the cost of crude significantly and reduce our need to import oil.



Now that you mention it, I did read in a credible source recently that a trader was, in fact, believed to have manipulated the price of crude oil to rise above $100/barrel by buying crude oil futures then selling but if you go back and check the facts he caused the price to rise from something like $98/barrel to $100 then the market settled right back to where it had been. Not a desirable outcome certainly but the alleged actions of that trader had very little effect on what we pay at the pump. It sounds huge to say that a trader caused the price of crude to rise to over $100/barrel but only if the public believes it was at $40/barrel before he manipulated prices.



No big deal in my opinion.



Harvey

 

[TFucili]

Sorry, I pay no attention whatsoever to that phony fraud old socialist karl levin. I place no credibility on anything he says. There is nothing he could do short of retiring from the senate that would interest me in the slightest. Blow dried empty suits like him "introduce legislation" every day that has no purpose other than fooling those who like his politics. Now if you told me karl levin introduced legislation to permit offshore oil drilling or oil drilling in ANWAR I'd pay attention. That would reduce the cost of crude significantly and reduce our need to import oil.



Now that you mention it, I did read in a credible source recently that a trader was, in fact, believed to have manipulated the price of crude oil to rise above $100/barrel by buying crude oil futures then selling but if you go back and check the facts he caused the price to rise from something like $98/barrel to $100 then the market settled right back to where it had been. Not a desirable outcome certainly but the alleged actions of that trader had very little effect on what we pay at the pump. It sounds huge to say that a trader caused the price of crude to rise to over $100/barrel but only if the public believes it was at $40/barrel before he manipulated prices.



No big deal in my opinion.



Harvey

Last post, I promise

Harvey, I am no fan of Levin either. But, even a blind squirrel gets a nut once in a while. I simply chose that link because it seemed to have the most succinct description of the problem. Google it for yourself. You'll find plenty to read about, and not just from left wing nut-jobs.

 

[HBarlow]

It is silly in my opinion to spend any time worrying about polluting the environment. Most of what some believe they "know" is nothing more than propaganda spouted by the liberal media whose goal it is to expand government agencies so they can regulate the rest of us into poverty and misery and take more freedoms away from the American people.



One volcanic eruption like Mt. Pinatubo near Clark Air Base that blew a few years ago, a natural occuring phenomenon beyond our control, causes more pollution than all of us could possibly create by trying. Our earth is very resilient. It will mostly take care of itself if left alone. We humans have little power to correct any supposed pollution therefore we have little power to cause it. I remember a few years ago when the environmental wackos were telling us global cooling was bringing on another ice age. They managed to get legislation to eliminate Freon R-12, a more efficient coolant than R-134. Now it's global warming. Its mostly nonsense.



One of the greatest champions of environmental activism is goofy gore, former VP who lives in a mansion and uses more energy each month than several TDR members combined use in a year and flys around in a chartered jet telling the rest of us how to live. Screw goofy gore and his environmental wackoism.



Environmental pollution, ho hum. I think I'll take a trip pulling my fiver again in week or two and burn some more diesel fuel.



Harvey

 

[snuff]

wow interesting,



s@#t diesel could be $5. 00gal, i will due the fact of have the best truck, will probelly still buy it..... yea the price sucks, till something happens, more refineries to boost production, opening the gulf of mex. more and alaska, yea the price will still go up. and do not forget the taxes, for roads, people are not dieing like they use to, means more vehicles, more demand and lower supply still. i believe charlton heston was in a movie, call soluet green, after you reach a certain age your are done, off to the slaughter house. then again i am getting older too, not such a good idea... ahahaha a

 

[TFucili]

It is silly in my opinion to spend any time worrying about polluting the environment. Most of what some believe they "know" is nothing more than propaganda spouted by the liberal media whose goal it is to expand government agencies so they can regulate the rest of us into poverty and misery and take more freedoms away from the American people.



One volcanic eruption like Mt. Pinatubo near Clark Air Base that blew a few years ago, a natural occuring phenomenon beyond our control, causes more pollution than all of us could possibly create by trying. Our earth is very resilient. It will mostly take care of itself if left alone. We humans have little power to correct any supposed pollution therefore we have little power to cause it. I remember a few years ago when the environmental wackos were telling us global cooling was bringing on another ice age. They managed to get legislation to eliminate Freon R-12, a more efficient coolant than R-134. Now it's global warming. Its mostly nonsense.



One of the greatest champions of environmental activism is goofy gore, former VP who lives in a mansion and uses more energy each month than several TDR members combined use in a year and flys around in a chartered jet telling the rest of us how to live. Screw goofy gore and his environmental wackoism.



Environmental pollution, ho hum. I think I'll take a trip pulling my fiver again in week or two and burn some more diesel fuel.



Harvey

Gotta agree on this one. Most of this alarmist crap simply translates into "pay more to get less".

 

[HBarlow]

TFucili,



Thanks. Arguing political and economic issues is fun on a boring Sunday afternoon when it is cold and I don't feel like going outside in the cold except to take my favorite child, my female German Shepherd for a walk.



Best wishes to all of you. I enjoyed debating with you. Even you Gary.



Harvey