the death of the diesel pickup

[rbattelle]

Get ENOUGH in our society excited and upset - and VOCAL, and then just MAYBE something will get done to correct the situation!

Precisely. We live in a free market society. The term "free market" includes things like bread, cereal, and fuel.



In a "free market" economy, prices are determined by the laws of supply and demand.



In a "free market" economy, I am free to price my cereal at $100/box. If people are willing to buy my cereal for $100/box, then that's great for me. If they won't pay that much, they won't buy my cereal, and I'll go out of business.



The alternative, of course, is government price controls. We all know how great the economy works when the government removes the free market.



Ryan

 

[DLane]

Precisely. We live in a free market society. The term "free market" includes things like bread, cereal, and fuel.



In a "free market" economy, prices are determined by the laws of supply and demand.



In a "free market" economy, I am free to price my cereal at $100/box. If people are willing to buy my cereal for $100/box, then that's great for me. If they won't pay that much, they won't buy my cereal, and I'll go out of business.



The alternative, of course, is government price controls. We all know how great the economy works when the government removes the free market.



Ryan

You are very correct Sir I could not agree more. MORE Gov. Regulation would only only make things worse. DEregulation is the key and you will Not see that.

on edit: As long as our Gov gets more money for higher prices we pay nothing will change. . And if you think that INFLATION is not shall we say "encouraged" by the same lawmakers, you are in a serious case of denial. AGAIN JMHO

 

[BSMcCauley]

Man, Silver, I'm sorry about your MPG. It never ceases to amaze me how mileage from one rig to another will vary. Thanks for your honesty. I agree with your observation.

For instance, one twelve cylinder engine will consume 93 gallons/hr under load, 3 gallons/hr at idle, multiply that by all the trains on the track these days and the number must be staggering. And that's just the rail industry!

You're not kidding on how much fuel a large industrial engine uses - and what a huge demand they put on fuel supplies. Of course, they are getting a HUGE amount of work done in the process as well. Here at work (offshore oil production platform), we have a pair of GE LM2500+ gas turbines (one engine option for the Boeing 747) driving generators with a 28,000KW summer-time rating each. At full power we have to feed each of these things 32 gal per MINUTE when firing on diesel fuel. By comparison, on natural gas fuel (obviously preferred), they burn about 10. 5 million standard cubic feet per day at full power (compare that with your last month's gas bill at the house).



I'm quite pleased with my 1. 4 - 4. 6 gallon/hour Cummins 6BTA!! (average speed 26. 2 mph & 81. 6 mph respectively). Quick check of my log book shows mostly 17's & 18's for fuel economy over the past couple pages, but I have also documented that if I slow 'er down to 55 and leave 'er there for several hours across a level highway that my 96 auto 4x4 will pinch out nearly 28 mpg. After hearing everyone else talk about their new ones, I think I'll be keeping mine quite a while longer.



Personal theory on diesel prices: Remember the price jump that happened with the lead was removed from gasoline? Reason is that it is much harder and more expensive to get the required octane rating without using the lead. Same issue on the ULSD. Near where I live, I am still able to purchase LSD at about 15 cents less a gallon than the ULSD found everywhere else around. Compound that with the lower economy and performance we are getting on the ULSD and it is even worse. Haven't quite figured out how the EPA improves air quality by burning MORE fuel in the process??

 

[DLane]

Personal theory on diesel prices: Remember the price jump that happened with the lead was removed from gasoline? Reason is that it is much harder and more expensive to get the required octane rating without using the lead. Same issue on the ULSD. Near where I live, I am still able to purchase LSD at about 15 cents less a gallon than the ULSD found everywhere else around. Compound that with the lower economy and performance we are getting on the ULSD and it is even worse. Haven't quite figured out how the EPA improves air quality by burning MORE fuel in the process??

shall we say "encouraged" by the same lawmakers

BBBBINGO

 

[Yo Hoot]

Ford has put a hurtin on diesels with the garbage they have been peddling since 2003. Who wants a diesel that costs an arm and a leg and has the horrible reputation now for reliability.

 

[Tomscreek]

I agree with CC. I'd bet 80 - 90% of the big bad Dodge diesel trucks around here are never really used, it's a status symbol for the young male population. Just seems like a lot of money to spend on transportation. Oh well can't blame them I guess, it's like trying to justify all the horsepower of the 70's muscle cars.

Myself, I would never buy another diesel simply because my use has changed and I don't pull heavy or frequent and can't justify the extra cost. However I'll be driving this one for a long time cuz it just turned 90,000 miles and I keep it like new. AND it's not worth anything either.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Precisely. We live in a free market society. The term "free market" includes things like bread, cereal, and fuel.



In a "free market" economy, prices are determined by the laws of supply and demand.



In a "free market" economy, I am free to price my cereal at $100/box. If people are willing to buy my cereal for $100/box, then that's great for me. If they won't pay that much, they won't buy my cereal, and I'll go out of business.



The alternative, of course, is government price controls. We all know how great the economy works when the government removes the free market.



Ryan

All of the above is relatively correct and proper - as long as we're dealing with an item or substance that has other available alternatives for consumers, and/or is not critical to specific groups or our nation as a whole.



If bread prices rise too high for an individual, there are other grain products that can be easily substituted - that isn't really true of energy - we are virtually locked onto the fossil fuels teat - with no easy, widespread alternatives.



As long as we as a society are complacent and willing to continue to view energy as only a casual discretionary "luxury", something that we as a nation and society don't really NEED, but use only as a "convenience", things related to energy availability, cost and pricing manipulation WILL continue - with the vigorous applause and support from those who only see energy as simply another "commodity", like wheat or corn.



Personally, I feel that SOME items/products in our society sometimes reach - and cross over - the threshold of a pure "convenience", and become an outright NECESSITY, and one that ultimately controls the well-being, health, and continued lifespan of our nation as a whole. Further, I feel that energy in the form of fossil fuels has reached, and CROSSED that threshold, and deserves to be treated by our government and society accordingly.



We as a nation have long held and applied, as necessary, the law of "Eminent Domain", where property of individuals or groups can be seized if deemed as necessary for the reasonable benefit of a larger segment of our society. This usually only occurs after all other reasonable avenues of obtaining such property have been exhausted, and government seizure is the only remaining option.



It's not always a "good" law, and certainly not one highly regarded by those losing their property - but SOMETIMES, (old Star Trek quote here!) "The needs of the MANY, outweigh the needs of the one"



I personally think that's where we are at this point in relation to energy costs.

 

[TFucili]

Supply and Demand Meets the Tooth Fairy

Supply and Demand, indeed. As previously pointed out, demand is relatively inelastic in today's society. Supply is thwarted at the source by unstable/unfriendly entities, and further constricted by the oil companies deliberate restriction of refining capacity. Don't give me the tree hugger BS either, as Big Oil was all too happy to drive small refiners out of the picture and shut operations down. This is magnified by the government allowing boutique fuel blends in various states and regions. On top of this add in the fact that, thanks to the good ol' boys from Enron, we have a crucial commodity that is traded OTC in an opaque, unregulated, totally manipulated market where a trader wakes up with a woody and drives up the price just for ****s and giggles. I'm sorry fellas, that is NOT capitalism. That is a return to the days of the "Robber Barons".

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I'm sorry fellas, that is NOT capitalism. That is a return to the days of the "Robber Barons".

AMEN!



To the point, and absolutely accurate!

 

[DZink24]

Before I go any further, I want to let all of you know I do not own oil stock, work for an oil company, or enjoy spending what looks to be very shortly $4 per gallon for diesel. But we have to realize what it is.



The oily substance that we put into our tanks begins, lets say in PA, TX, Venezuela, Russia or Saudi Arabia. Ya know where I am goin with this??



It (rotted animals and plants) gets pulled from bedrock thousands of feet down, often times from platforms in the middle of the god-awful cold North Atlantic that cost billions to construct and maintain. It (crude oil) is then shipped, to be refined multiple times by refineries that again, cost billions to build and maintain. After all that, it again gets transported by a network of underground pipes, trucks, ships, ect. to be finally distributed to your neighborhood Qwiki-Mart again, by truck.



Think back to the days of . 89, 1. 09, 1. 79 fuel. What a bargain that was!



OK now boys, fire away. Remember, I didn't say I enjoyed it!

 

[EEdmondson]

Good posts Gary and TFucili!!



A few companies in collusion control a whole market. That's not a "free Market".



It's time to enforce our antitrust laws.

 

[klenger]

I pretty much agree with every word of this, especially the part about paying $4 per gallon. I can put just over $3 worth on #2 in my truck and pull my truck and 5th wheel trailer with a combined weight of around 18,000 lbs about 11 miles. I cannot imagine getting that much work done without some kind of modern machine for anywhere near that price. I couldn't even feed a bus load of slaves for $3 and get that much weight moved that far. :-laf

Before I go any further, I want to let all of you know I do not own oil stock, work for an oil company, or enjoy spending what looks to be very shortly $4 per gallon for diesel. But we have to realize what it is.



The oily substance that we put into our tanks begins, lets say in PA, TX, Venezuela, Russia or Saudi Arabia. Ya know where I am goin with this??



It (rotted animals and plants) gets pulled from bedrock thousands of feet down, often times from platforms in the middle of the god-awful cold North Atlantic that cost billions to construct and maintain. It (crude oil) is then shipped, to be refined multiple times by refineries that again, cost billions to build and maintain. After all that, it again gets transported by a network of underground pipes, trucks, ships, ect. to be finally distributed to your neighborhood Qwiki-Mart again, by truck.



Think back to the days of . 89, 1. 09, 1. 79 fuel. What a bargain that was!



OK now boys, fire away. Remember, I didn't say I enjoyed it!

 

[HBarlow]

So we should exercise the power of emminent domain and seize the oilfields of the middle east, central America, Mexico, the US, Canada, etc. ? How do you propose we do that? And after we accomplish that minor task what shall we do . . . turn them over to some "efficient" government agency like the DMV or a welfare agency to run in order to reduce costs and improve efficiency?



Do any of you remember the Soviet Union? The USSR had wonderful state run efficient agencies that ran everything. It's called socialism. Is that what some of you want?



And while we're fixing the oil industry, would each of you take a minute to consider how you would like for the rest of us to decide to seize the industry and company you work for, take out the profits which include a return on investment for investors and salaries for employees, and tell you how much and when to produce.



Capitalism is an imperfect system but it is the best most efficient system ever created and is the foundation of the success of this great nation.



Why is it so hard to understand ... ... . the cost of petroleum products begins with the cost of crude oil and that is driven primarily by world wide demand. We have no power to set or control the price of crude unless all of you wish to volunteer to serve in the armed forces and we'll attack the rest of the world and take their oil. Not an attractive prospect.



Harvey

 

[EEdmondson]

And while we're fixing the oil industry, would each of you take a minute to consider how you would like for the rest of us to decide to seize the industry and company you work for, take out the profits which include a return on investment for investors and salaries for employees, and tell you how much and when to produce.

Harvey

They did that to my company in 1984 (AT&T... the original) because we controlled too much of the industry. Now there are many phone companies out there and they are merging back to become the giant again. Good or bad? I don't know... some of each I guess.



The problem with oil is there isn't competition... too few companies controlling the industry.



Profits are regulated on public utilities (PUC) and IMO they should be on fuel too. For most people fuel is not an optional purchase. We also need better efficiency and FEWER PEOPLE!

 

[TFucili]

So we should exercise the power of emminent domain and seize the oilfields of the middle east, central America, Mexico, the US, Canada, etc. ? How do you propose we do that? And after we accomplish that minor task what shall we do . . . turn them over to some "efficient" government agency like the DMV or a welfare agency to run in order to reduce costs and improve efficiency?



Do any of you remember the Soviet Union? The USSR had wonderful state run efficient agencies that ran everything. It's called socialism. Is that what some of you want?



And while we're fixing the oil industry, would each of you take a minute to consider how you would like for the rest of us to decide to seize the industry and company you work for, take out the profits which include a return on investment for investors and salaries for employees, and tell you how much and when to produce.



Capitalism is an imperfect system but it is the best most efficient system ever created and is the foundation of the success of this great nation.



Why is it so hard to understand ... ... . the cost of petroleum products begins with the cost of crude oil and that is driven primarily by world wide demand. We have no power to set or control the price of crude unless all of you wish to volunteer to serve in the armed forces and we'll attack the rest of the world and take their oil. Not an attractive prospect.



Harvey

I can only speak for myself. I think we have too much socialism in this country already, only a simpleton would want the government to operate anything, and I don't think conquering the rest of the world would be a very good idea. However, just like the potential chaos of a pure democracy led to a representative democracy, likewise pure capitalism will lead to collusion and thievery which ultimately is bad for almost everyone. There must be oversight. Not price ceilings or outright government control, mind you, but checks and means to keep our fine corporate citizens honest. Surely, you can't endorse the completely blind trading taking place via the "Enron Loophole". It allows, at best, too much emotion and speculation, and, at worst, outright skullduggery to take money out of everyone's pockets. You would have to believe in the tooth fairy to not think that, like the butcher with his thumb on the scale, these companies and traders will not rake us over the coals. Capitalism is the great tide that raises all boats, at least the boats of everyone who is willing to work and contribute to the system. When the system is rigged, they put a knot in the anchor chain of the working stiff, and you get swamped. How much chain do we have left, Captain?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Every time the subject of some form of control over what the oil producers and companies are doing to us, the oil company supporters just LOVE to bring out the "big guns" and spectre of Socialism - and the supporting theory that ALL the government controls is screwed up and evil...



First of all, Socialism is NOT what has been suggested, and second, our government manages to get a few things right - and my earlier point about Eminent Domain was not the suggested "fix" in regards to oil companies, but only the point that there ARE legal means already in use in some areas of our society to correct/control situations that either threaten localized areas or control the most reasonable potential solution - and all that without "Socialism"!



What about a tax incentive, so that a certain amount of profit above a set percentage must be applied to domestic energy alternatives - and if the specific oil company won't involve themselves voluntarily in alternative energy sources, that profit will then be assigned to companies who WILL, all carefully and properly administered and controlled.



That way, the oil companies can still keep and control part of current obscene profits, and yet stand to benefit financially with whatever profits eventually arise from their alternative energy efforts. That's not Socialism, it's a rather common sense suggestion that plows a significant amount of $$$ that now enriches the few, at the expense of the many - into a program that just MIGHT benefit us ALL in the long run!



How much percentage of the nearly 100 BILLION dollars annual oil company profits might make an impact upon alternative energy development? Say 10 billion, 10% was used for that goal - big oil still keeps 90 billion - and I pretty well imagine that 10 billion, along with other dollar amounts already used for the same purpose, MIGHT make a big impact on developing and producing energy alternatives.



Of course, it will not be met without resistance from oil companies, and those big oil supporters in various oil-producing states who all prefer the status quo...



But perhaps it's time to stop ASKING, or wishing, and start FORCING!

 

[HBarlow]

TFucili,



I chuckled when I read your comment about "only a simpleton would want the government to run anything. " I agree completely with that statement.



I think we already have a system of checks and balances. It is called the judicial system. I was happy to see the crooked senior executives of ENRON go to jail and lose their fortunes. The CEO lost his life, probably as a result of the downfall of ENRON, and I didn't feel sorry for him either.



Many who simply don't understand how our great and very complex economy works don't like the cost of fuel (I don't either) and think wrongly that it is easy to fix. We just pass a law or confiscate the private property of thousands of others and turn it over to the government to run. That is a certain recipe for massive oil/fuel shortages and the destruction of our economy.



A better solution to oil prices would be to remove the political party from Congress that prevents our drilling for oil in Alaska and offshore to INCREASE supply. That would quickly reduce the price of world crude, slow the transfer of billions of dollars to our enemies in the middle east, and employ thousands of Americans in good paying jobs.



Oh well, this probably belongs in the political forum.



Harvey

 

[HBarlow]

Every time the subject of some form of control over what the oil producers and companies are doing to us, the oil company supporters just LOVE to bring out the "big guns" and spectre of Socialism - and the supporting theory that ALL the government controls is screwed up and evil...



First of all, Socialism is NOT what has been suggested, and second, our government manages to get a few things right - and my earlier point about Eminent Domain was not the suggested "fix" in regards to oil companies, but only the point that there ARE legal means already in use in some areas of our society to correct/control situations that either threaten localized areas or control the most reasonable potential solution - and all that without "Socialism"!



What about a tax incentive, so that a certain amount of profit above a set percentage must be applied to domestic energy alternatives - and if the specific oil company won't involve themselves voluntarily in alternative energy sources, that profit will then be assigned to companies who WILL, all carefully and properly administered and controlled.



That way, the oil companies can still keep and control part of current obscene profits, and yet stand to benefit financially with whatever profits eventually arise from their alternative energy efforts. That's not Socialism, it's a rather common sense suggestion that plows a significant amount of $$$ that now enriches the few, at the expense of the many - into a program that just MIGHT benefit us ALL in the long run!



How much percentage of the nearly 100 BILLION dollars annual oil company profits might make an impact upon alternative energy development? Say 10 billion, 10% was used for that goal - big oil still keeps 90 billion - and I pretty well imagine that 10 billion, along with other dollar amounts already used for the same purpose, MIGHT make a big impact on developing and producing energy alternatives.



Of course, it will not be met without resistance from oil companies, and those big oil supporters in various oil-producing states who all prefer the status quo...



But perhaps it's time to stop ASKING, or wishing, and start FORCING!

You're backpedaling now Gary. Having government control the means of production is precisely socialism and that is exactly what you suggested in your earlier post.



Can you name a couple of things the government can and has done well?



Harvey

 

[JDinterman]

So we should exercise the power of emminent domain and seize the oilfields of the middle east, central America, Mexico, the US, Canada, etc. ? How do you propose we do that? And after we accomplish that minor task what shall we do . . . turn them over to some "efficient" government agency like the DMV or a welfare agency to run in order to reduce costs and improve efficiency?



Do any of you remember the Soviet Union? The USSR had wonderful state run efficient agencies that ran everything. It's called socialism. Is that what some of you want?



And while we're fixing the oil industry, would each of you take a minute to consider how you would like for the rest of us to decide to seize the industry and company you work for, take out the profits which include a return on investment for investors and salaries for employees, and tell you how much and when to produce.



Capitalism is an imperfect system but it is the best most efficient system ever created and is the foundation of the success of this great nation.



Why is it so hard to understand ... ... . the cost of petroleum products begins with the cost of crude oil and that is driven primarily by world wide demand. We have no power to set or control the price of crude unless all of you wish to volunteer to serve in the armed forces and we'll attack the rest of the world and take their oil. Not an attractive prospect.



Harvey

No but we need to stop letting the environmentalist control every aspect of our lives! We have the largest oil field in alaska and we cannot touch it, the gulf of mexico we can't drill but guess what China is there now drilling, how about building some new refineries to keep up with the demand lots can be done if we would just grow a set!!!!!#@$%!

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

You're backpedaling now Gary. Having government control the means of production is precisely socialism and that is exactly what you suggested in your earlier post.



Can you name a couple of things the government can and has done well?



Harvey

You seem to need reading comprehension tutoring - here's what I said in regards to Eminent Domain:

We as a nation have long held and applied, as necessary, the law of "Eminent Domain", where property of individuals or groups can be seized if deemed as necessary for the reasonable benefit of a larger segment of our society. This usually only occurs after all other reasonable avenues of obtaining such property have been exhausted, and government seizure is the only remaining option.

As I said, that was merely illustrating that we already DO have legal options in some relatively similar situations - :-laf



As to THIS part:

SOMETIMES, (old Star Trek quote here!) "The needs of the MANY, outweigh the needs of the one"



I personally think that's where we are at this point in relation to energy costs.

I wasn't referring to a specific method, only observing that the current "Rich getting richer, and poor getting poorer" needs to STOP! The only actual suggestion I have made so far, is the tax/profit application to alternative - don't try to put words or meanings into my mouth - I think my basic criticisms and points are pretty clear to any who read them with an open mind - and WITHOUT any personal slants favoring oil companies - or financial ties to them...



Plain and simple - we can either accept and agree that the current energy situation is grand and well, that we love it and there's nothing about it than needs fixing, control or criticism - or else we can object loudly in as many places as possible, offering grass-roots suggestions for what's wrong, and what might be done about it!



And naturally, ANYONE with their hands in the oil company cash register, either directly or indirectly, will undoubtedly find fault with it...

Can you name a couple of things the government can and has done well?

Well lessee - in spite of complaints as to USPS, no one yet has stepped up in private enterprise to do it better - or cheaper - at the national level.



Our various military forces seem to get the job done - seen any private enterprise warriors on a large scale at work for us in Iraq - or other international hotspots - and willing/able to do it cheaper or better?



Yeah some of us like to work our mouths about how government screws up everything they do (it's sort of a national pastime for some!) - but there are plenty of cases where they are the only game in town - and NO ONE is stepping up to compete with them...