Competition The Ultimate Diesel Drag Racing Engine

[COMP461]

Care to put a wager on that? They have forgotten more than you have learned so far. Anyone can go out and read up on diesel mechanical theory and quote text...

The score boards seem to have answered this question.



There is no diesel mechanical theory, just racing engine development theory. I have a vast understanding of that subject, from about 20 years or so of being involved in developing racing engines. It’s called Process Engineering. Meaning you try everything possible under the sun, and learn from that, progressing on to the next level. I do believe that some of the people out there have knowledge, but I believe I am just as capable, didn’t say I was better, but just as good.



A diesel is nothing more then a four stroke reciprocating internal combustion engine. Nothing more or less, what works on a 10,000 rpm small block racing engine, or an Indy type motor works on a diesel period, there is no wiggle room.

Air flow, the right amount of fuel, and light weight rotation assembly. I’m not building a pulling motor, but a purpose built high rpm racing power plant. I have done this with other motor programs in the past, one just recently for G. M. PERFORMANCE PARTS the Chevy trailblazer engine, still have two complete factory engines setting in my garage if any one needs one this project is no different. I also have a few LLY on the way from them for a dragster project. . I am willing to share my knowledge with people on here and some people just have to feel threaten.

 

[McRat]

... I also have a few LLY on the way from them for a dragster project. . I am willing to share my knowledge with people on here and some people just have to feel threaten.

Before the LLY DMAX can really take wing for the majority of the racers, there needs to become available a programmable Common Rail controller. Relying on off-the-shelf tunes written for a smog controlled engine ain't cutting it. I heard Banks has a way around it, but us peons don't have anything yet. And like the CR Cummins, the CP3 was never designed to pump 500RWHP worth of fuel, and options are sparse (yeah, I know ATS has a "tweaked" CP3 and Banks a CP4?). With the CR Cummins and the LLY, we have many of the same problems. Things will get weirder come 06 as the injector controller will be integrated into the PCM to boot.



Once hot rod parts become common for the CR, look out. A digital CR system will make the "old school" diesel tech obsolete for most racing. Better atomization, more efficient timing throughout the RPM range, and the ability automatically compensate for outside factors, are only limited my the skill of the tuner.



When it's time to play with the LLY's feel free to say "hi" on thedieselplace.

 

[Sled Puller]

I wasn't going to bother to address that question, GIT, but since you mentioned it... . my "pulling" engine was not a problem at the strip. The pulling clutch, and my inability to get after the 5 speed shifting was.

Didn't want to break anything before that pull, as it was a points pull,(which I won) drag racing is too hard on parts.

 

[KLockliear]

Greg, in your graph, what is your RPM span on that run?

Looks like he launched at about 3300rpm, then shifted 1-2 at 3800, 2-3 at ~3900, 3-4 at 4000 or so, then ran 4th out to ~4400rpm.

 

[DavidTD]

Looks like he launched at about 3300rpm, then shifted 1-2 at 3800, 2-3 at ~3900, 3-4 at 4000 or so, then ran 4th out to ~4400rpm.

Thanks Keith... I couldn't read the graph.

 

[sbentz]

In these discussions we hear about Comp, Edge, Bentz, and Scheid. Comp and Bentz were first with the tube chassis. Neither hit the track with big hp. Comp, you were under 500hp when you ran 9. 93 in December 2003. Scott came out with similar power. Edge and Scheid do not have the same luxury. Mainly because everyone on here expects each to come out and awe the world with their first passes. You and I know that is not how it works. This is why I don't expect you will see either until they can. Shame really, because I would enjoy watching the teething that both will endure reaching their goals.

Wise words, David. Totally agree.



This thread has a lot of good thought, and a bit of good humor.



First, the general drag racing population got to watch us go from a 14 second pass with the old blue and white car, to where we are now in 6 years, running twice as fast. We were laughed at, pointed at, heads shook, eyes rolled, and some good friends questioned my mental stability. (they still do, but that is another story)



The reason we are doing well now, is not the fact that we were down on HP compared to the pulling guys, but more that we worked our way up with many different combinations, and tried WAY too many transmission, torque converters, and turbos that finally worked together.



I just put the motor back together, and was struggling with how many changes to make getting ready for Indy. In the end, I decided to keep the current setup with only a few little tweaks. The major difference is the transmission, gearing, and torque convertor. Once it is proven, then the other engine goes in. Engine number 2 will be a bit more radical, and while nearly all parts are stock Cummins, should build some more HP.



David, you are so right, that everyone expects the Edge and Scheid cars to come out and fly. Not going to happen. Not until they get 30, 40, or 100 passes with different tune-ups and set-ups in the car to figure out that brute HP is not the goal. ET is. You have to make compromises. Lots of them.



I have no idea how to build a pulling rig, so I will not even guess, but my hunch is that the more HP, the better, and if it take 30 seconds to build it, no issues. In drag racing, that won't fly.



Good luck to all, and please, just get them out and RUN THEM! It will all come around.

 

[DHRA]

Wise words, David. Totally agree.



This thread has a lot of good thought, and a bit of good humor.



First, the general drag racing population got to watch us go from a 14 second pass with the old blue and white car, to where we are now in 6 years, running twice as fast. We were laughed at, pointed at, heads shook, eyes rolled, and some good friends questioned my mental stability. (they still do, but that is another story)



The reason we are doing well now, is not the fact that we were down on HP compared to the pulling guys, but more that we worked our way up with many different combinations, and tried WAY too many transmission, torque converters, and turbos that finally worked together.



I just put the motor back together, and was struggling with how many changes to make getting ready for Indy. In the end, I decided to keep the current setup with only a few little tweaks. The major difference is the transmission, gearing, and torque convertor. Once it is proven, then the other engine goes in. Engine number 2 will be a bit more radical, and while nearly all parts are stock Cummins, should build some more HP.



David, you are so right, that everyone expects the Edge and Scheid cars to come out and fly. Not going to happen. Not until they get 30, 40, or 100 passes with different tune-ups and set-ups in the car to figure out that brute HP is not the goal. ET is. You have to make compromises. Lots of them.



I have no idea how to build a pulling rig, so I will not even guess, but my hunch is that the more HP, the better, and if it take 30 seconds to build it, no issues. In drag racing, that won't fly.



Good luck to all, and please, just get them out and RUN THEM! It will all come around.

Amen, brother!

 

[COMP461]

I made three complete passes that weekend in the 8’s but only one yielded a time slip, the trans brake crept , and on pro tree race you don’t get a time slip if you move a few inches before the tree is activated . The first pass was faster then the 8. 72 on the data logger , a much cleaner pass , but no time slip, the second pass was about a high 8. 80 , but again the brake crept . that night we serviced the brake with a new band and solved the problem. The reason for the break not holding was not the Bruno units fault , but a misread gauge , let the air pressure down and let it slip the band, you only get one time of that , and its done. The air bottle is up front now where I can see the gauge

On Sunday when NHRA rolled us out after the national anthem , and just in front of my buddy John Force , I was really worried about the creep , so I set on the line till I saw green . hard for a old drag racer to do, but I was not taking a chance of a no-time in front of a capacity crowd , and ESPN. The truck felt good . I let fly of the trigger , before the normal 85 PSI boost , and down about 300 rpm’s , mainly out of the thought it would creep again. That put my 60’ down . 05 and from a 1. 20 to 1. 25 this hurt about a good . 08 or . 09 total. The truck will 60’ , 1. 18 now , and with a little more track time I expect 1. 15 to 1. 16 . I have run about 30 1/8 mile passes since then , all in the 5. 30 range , and haven’t gone back to a !/4 track , except Houston , where the truck was on a PASS until the “53” block curse put a little water under the tires . making me relieve some of my old Pro Mod days of looking at the guard rail out the windshield

 

[banshee]

This takes away the thick smoke; another aspect is in the real drag racing world, you only have 7 seconds to complete staging, and a second or two before the tree drops. No setting at the line and spooling for 15 to 30 seconds

Funny you should mention that. The last few pulls I have watched Kent pull at I have noticed that he hasn't spent much more than 5 seconds spooling up the Schied pulling truck. I have a couple other pulls on video, and the longest one according to the timer at the bottom is exactly 7 seconds from initially cracking the throttle off idle to dropping the clutch and yanking the sled. Oh, and there are plenty of trucks in the street class that smoke more than his, too. It seems you have a skewed view of the top puller's performance

 

[Sled Puller]

COMP and Bentz INSIST it is 30 seconds, so it must so. :{

 

[COMP461]

You getting a different view of a pulling truck and a drag racer spooling up and launch. The pulling truck is unloaded until the clutch comes in , so you at maximum RPM and minimum load on the beginning of the pull. The motor comes in to the load ,ramps up to full power. and has time to build power as it goes in to the pull. This gives the allusion that its is up on the chargers .



Now in a drag racing engine you load against the converter , and the motor has to come up under full load you have to have every ounce of power the second the trans brake is released , not ramp in to the pass, a clutch is not the answer in a drag racing engine either , as no load on the motor and you don’t build heat and thereby boost.



If you try the sled puller approach in a drag truck you get power on in to the pass , this will make for mph but the initial hit will not plant the tire on the line ,

 

[COMP461]

COMP and Bentz INSIST it is 30 seconds, so it must so. :{

and you have proven what in drag racing .



seems me and Scott don't have to prove our selves , its others grand stand tunning , I don't pretend to be a expert about sled pulling , why are you all of a sudden an expert on drag racing



my numbers speak for them selves . try as you might , try as you will , but the proven performance want disapear

 

[DavidTD]

You getting a different view of a pulling truck and a drag racer spooling up and launch. The pulling truck is unloaded until the clutch comes in , so you at maximum RPM and minimum load on the beginning of the pull. The motor comes in to the load ,ramps up to full power. and has time to build power as it goes in to the pull. This gives the allusion that its is up on the chargers .



Now in a drag racing engine you load against the converter , and the motor has to come up under full load you have to have every ounce of power the second the trans brake is released , not ramp in to the pass, a clutch is not the answer in a drag racing engine either , as no load on the motor and you don’t build heat and thereby boost.



If you try the sled puller approach in a drag truck you get power on in to the pass , this will make for mph but the initial hit will not plant the tire on the line ,

I pretty much agree here. But I will say I have no concern on the ability of the Scheid motor to light in enough time.



And BTW, it is good to see all 4 of the tube crowd on the same thread. Good Luck to you all in reaching your goals. Just watch out for the black 4x4... I'm shooting for the 6's. With the 4 33" slicks, the #10 plate and stock injectors no less. Just got to read the rules one more time. Didn't see anything about bed mounted rocket engines the first time through. :-laf

 

[banshee]

I can understand what you're trying to say Greg, but I can't help but wonder why you believe an engine from a "pulling company" can't spool up in under 7 seconds through a TC. Do you have any direct experience with a full tilt race engine from someone like Scheid, or are you just assuming they can't do it? What are you basing this 30 second spoolup and slow ramp rates on other than being what you think?

 

[CMNS PWR]

Its pretty much useless John. Give a man enough rope and he will hang himself.

 

[COMP461]

RESULTS SPEAK FOR THEM SELVES



RD you didn'y ask me , and I concider the path I am taking , and what I am doing now ,as the cutting edge in diesel. I don't care what everyone else is doing , what are the results

 

[COMP461]

Its pretty much useless John. Give a man enough rope and he will hang himself.

or he will go out and run the fastest pass in a diesel truck ever... .....





its not braging when you can back it up.....









the new proposal I am working on now will put a diesel truck in to the mid to low 7's in a year , just math

 

[Sled Puller]

RESULTS SPEAK FOR THEM SELVES



RD you didn'y ask me , and I concider the path I am taking , and what I am doing now ,as the cutting edge in diesel.

Nobody who knows how a Diesel works, does. Go concider yerself with your gasser buddies. You are just setting yourself up for dismal failures in the Diesel world.

 

[COMP461]

Nobody who knows how a Diesel works, does. Go concider yerself with your gasser buddies. You are just setting yourself up for dismal failures in the Diesel world.

If by failure you mean currently having the undisputed quickest diesel truck in the world. Well you have a funny way of defining failure. The others have tried and have not done what I have. Just as in sled pulling there is a line, and I have made the full pull, the other hasn’t. Explain how that is a failure. I don’t see it as a diesel, or for that mater a gas motor, as any thing but an air pump, and the way, and method of fuel delivery is inconsequential. To make an air pump more air, you have to make it less restrictive, and turn it faster. To turn it faster you need a lighten reciprocating weight. The 60 lbs I have removed is worth a great deal of power, real power that will accelerate a race truck down the track.



You keep referring you others , what about your self , what have you accomplished , what have you built , this is the old hot rod talk , “ my buddies car is faster then your , and if he was here……… well funny thing there never seem to show up.



I am leaving to day to run a comp race in a G. M. PERFORMANCE PARTS trailblazer power dragster. So while I’m at the track, Ill rejoices at this perceived failure also, getting asked to fill in for a major sponsored team.



Also I have decided that the Cummins is a fair motor, but the future is a G. M. PERFORMANCE PARTS Duramax



Sleddie, you can see further evidence of my failure in the record book, and the three magazine stories soon to be out

 

[RustyJC]

Also I have decided that the Cummins is a fair motor, but the future is a G. M. PERFORMANCE PARTS Duramax

Does that mean you'll be leaving the TDR?



Rusty