Timken Clutch Release bearing, NV5600

[GCroyle]

Can you post a pic of your master cylinder? Just pop the hood and a quick pic.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Can you post a pic of your master cylinder? Just pop the hood and a quick pic.

sure

 

[BigPapa]

He’s using the South Bend HYDX.750.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Nothing pinched or kinked.

 

[GCroyle]

If you test and find air here’s how to get it out.

It helps if you took a water bottle and put it horizontal on a table. See the bubble it’s at the top. Don’t even think about making it go out of the SC bleed screw if equipped instead make it go UP and out of the MC. With it removed tip the SC push rod end straight DOWN to force the bubble to the connection for the line. Now slowly compress the push rod all the way in.
Go back to the water bottle to visualize where bubble is and how to get it to the connection.

Helper is under truck hood reservoir cap off and monitor progress. Fluid level, down and bubbles popping.

You should also have truck pointed slightly downhill so bubble goes back and easily exits thru transfer port in MC.

No one even touches the clutch pedal for this procedure.

This provides visual confirmation. See the bubbles?

Visualize where the bubble could hide it always wants to go UP so let it go up.

Starting at about 22:30 in this video that is the same MC and similar SC being replaced and bled out of the truck.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

If you test and find air here’s how to get it out.

It helps if you took a water bottle and put it horizontal on a table. See the bubble it’s at the top. Don’t even think about making it go out of the SC bleed screw if equipped instead make it go UP and out of the MC. With it removed tip the SC push rod end straight DOWN to force the bubble to the connection for the line. Now slowly compress the push rod all the way in.
Go back to the water bottle to visualize where bubble is and how to get it to the connection.

Helper is under truck hood reservoir cap off and monitor progress. Fluid level, down and bubbles popping.

You should also have truck pointed slightly downhill so bubble goes back and easily exits thru transfer port in MC.

No one even touches the clutch pedal for this procedure.

This provides visual confirmation. See the bubbles?

Visualize where the bubble could hide it always wants to go UP so let it go up.

Starting at about 22:30 in this video that is the same MC and similar SC being replaced and bled out of the truck.

Is this the same method Rich on Deboss Garage used? If so I'm familiar with it. I've seen both videos before. The assembly is sealed and pre-blead. Looking over the product warranty for the hydro: it's void if it's "altered". If this were the old pre-blead master cylinder the previous owners had installed I'd try it because I have nothing to loose. But this one is still under warranty If defective. I'd rather it be found defective after testing it rather than trying to make it work, it failing, and being out a 360.00 unit because I tampered with it. I've learned my lesson with PF.

 

[GCroyle]

I did watch the video but he never showed which master cyl the truck had. Your 2nd Gen MC per Scott's pic is a piston port and just needs a slight tip to get air bubbles going into port and out during SC compression. If it's the same design as a 3rd gen Dodge with the tappet valve then NO he did not respect the design and get the last bubbles out and just called it free play. There is no free play on these trucks.

I've asked you to do a wheel turn test, no reply, measure the reserve travel like I did, no data, showed you a video with the same design master as Scott showed that you have and now you post someone else's here's how. That one was not the exact model specific technique that I linked you to.

Good luck with your truck,

Good bye.

 

[BigPapa]

Performing any of the procedures Gary has suggested and given you a video on will not alter anything.

That’s Gary in the video. He’s made a living dealing with clutches and hydraulics his entire career, now he’s retired and giving his knowledge away to folks that could use it. He’s tried to help you at every turn through this entire fiasco.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Performing any of the procedures Gary has suggested and given you a video on will not alter anything.

That’s Gary in the video. He’s made a living dealing with clutches and hydraulics his entire career, now he’s retired and giving his knowledge away to folks that could use it. He’s tried to help you at every turn through this entire fiasco.

I realized that, I'll try bleeding they hydro tomorrow out of the truck. I'm not refuting any of his suggestions; but I'm one person, and my garage isn't a full service shop. Nor can I just fab up what I need. I don't have free hands to help me at the drop of a hat. I work around the schedules of my friends that are willing to help. They've gone above and beyond for me these past 3 months and I know they're tired of spending their weekends with me even if they don't say it out right. One is down because of my short sightedness and I take full responsibility.

There is no one who wants this over with faster more than me. I have never in my life put forth so much time, effort, and money into one thing with so little return. I'm tired of spending all my time on this truck. My back, knees and mood show it.

There are no words for my appreciation of TDR and the discussions had here with its members. I don't know everything, and I have no shame admitting when I'm wrong or don't know. But I cannot heed to every suggestion and piece of advice on this forum. It's not advice if you give it with the expectation of compliance. I'm grateful not gloriful.

A note about the clutch pedal: it's soft. Softer than I remember when I first installed it on the single disc defect. It's consistently soft and doesn't require much strength to push to the floor. When the transmission was pulled for the second time to ship the defect clutch assembly out the SC was hung up underneath the truck on the frame rail for at least a month. The MC diaphragm was expanded and holding some moisture in the bottom. I wiped out the diaphragm and reset it during my attempt to bleed the clutch while it was mounted to the truck this afternoon. I'm willing to listen.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Attempted to bleed the SC/MC off the truck yesterday and there wasn't any change in pedal feel or shift symptoms with the truck off or on. I was able to verify that I have 1/2" to 3/4" of free travel on the fork between the pressure plate face and input shaft collar where the TOB rides.

A friend was able to fab up a SC plate for me to get a rod through and test the fork engagement, I'll be testing that with the truck running today after I try bypassing the neutral safety switch I attempted this already yesterday without the truck running according to SBC hydro test procedures and was not able to get any different shifting feel. I'll double check my measurements again when I test while running.

Letting the clutch out from a stop and rolling into 1st 2nd and reverse I can hear a string like plucking sound from the bell housing it increases if the clutch is let out to fast and the truck bounces/jolts the driveline like a spring.

Plunger block off was made from a leaking and gutted SC, the backing that the rod sits in bottoms on a shoulder with a spring pushing it forward, I used an old exhaust manifold spacer that measures 1 3/8's an inch to take up slack as I bolted them together. I was able to get maybe a quarter inch of travel on the MC side plunger that the pedal actuates.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Update:

I still have four specific symptoms after the attempted bleeding procedure. Two noises: from a stop rolling into 1st or 2nd a poping/plucking noise that can be heard and felt in the clutch pedal and a plucking noise going into reverse from a stop. Still having excessively notchy shifts through all gears and down shifting to 4th and 3rd is very notchy or grinds.

Hard to say weather it got better after bleeding or not, I can manage to down shift to 4th around street speeds but it's intermittent and not consistent enough, sometimes its really easy but most times its not. Truck is drive able, I'll be getting some highway miles this week as I'm dropping off one last load near Richmond VA. Less than 200 city miles on clutch break in. Clutch feels really smooth and the gears I can down shift in feel good. I double clutch down shift for reference.

I don't have any time left to trouble shoot this on my own and neither do my friends have the availability to help. Ones going to Florida to help with an engine and trans swap on an 87 F250 for his cousin, another is still recovering from the last installation, and the last one has a Girlfriend who claims every waking second of his time. This time next week MB Diesel will have my keys to trouble shoot the remaining transmission issues and finish up the final parts installations I don't have the tools or time for i.e. traction bars being burned on and head studs installed.

I will turn over all the information I have in my log books, emails with South Bend Clutch/Phoenix friction, and share this thread to MB Diesel to aid in trouble shooting my issues and hopefully speed up the process. In more ways than one MB diesel could be the first and last shop to lay hands on my truck. I was left with a great impression when I called about a quote at the end of June and spoke to the owner himself twice, very polite and humble guy. He's busy and he's hiring, 52 trucks were ahead of me when I scheduled for the 19th. Hoping for the best news, it's out of my hands.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Update:

Shifting symptoms worsened the day before I had planned to drive to Richmond. So she stayed at home and didn't make the trip and the 98 4Runner drew the lucky straw.

Could not upshift into 3rd gear, same symptoms as downshifting into 4th. I was out running an errand and taking notes of the driving feel for MB Diesel when from a stop after rolling into second and hitting 2500 rpm going up hill it felt like I hit a a wall in the H pattern. Had to pull over and limp in second. No leaks from the master cylinder or slave cylinder on visual inspection. Very notchy on the way home.

The day before I went and drove my local HW loop (aprox. 70mi 113km) as a final shake down before the Richmond trip. 5th and 6th on the highway were fine. Trans temp peaked at 190* unloaded. Still trying to find a base line temp to expect since adding a temp gauge. The fluid takes forever to heat up around town, I saw 160-175* consistently. I'm running dual transcool coolers and a 1 quart over fill of the stock level using Amsoil manual synchromesh. 9.5 pints stock level fill or 4.75 US quarts. Coolers add a quart capacity combined: +1 for stock level, and an additional quart for the over fill 6.75 quarts total and I round to 7 for good luck. Fluid is new since second installation of trans. Stock clutch on same setup didn't have any issues and I had roughly half life on the old fluid before the first transmission removal. No transmission fluid is leaking.

 

[MGreer]

If it were my truck I would have concerns about the shifter you put in there. Seems like that's the only thing that hasn't been considered.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Shifter was previously installed on the stock clutch with no drivability issues. Only thing of note was that it was stiff in feeling feeling because it wasn't broken in but nothing like what I'm experiencing now. Fortunately I still have the OEM shifter so I'll include that when I drop her off and mention it to be swapped and tested if they run into a wall. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Thinking on it I don't remember any shifter issues with the Kevlar clutch, just the horrid noise. I'll verify in my log books later. But that wouldn't have been something I'd over look with as many notes I was taking about the drivability of Phoenix Friction's clutch. Though I didn't have nearly as much drive time on that clutch (PF Kevlar). I didn't get above 3rd gear and didn't leave my neighborhood because it felt so bad. I emailed Core shifters asking if they'd warranty their unit if isolated out and found to be defective.

 

[BigPapa]

I emailed Core shifters asking if they'd warranty their unit if isolated out and found to be defective.

Just a suggestion looking at this from the other side, I wouldn't ask a manufacturer or dealer that question until you're SURE their product is defective.

I know we used to get those inquiries all the time from certain shops and/or techs and it ended up that our product wasn't the problem. Then, when they did have a problem with our product, the warranty guys weren't in any hurry to help. Kind of the "boy who cried WOLF" thing.

Again, just a suggestion.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Just a suggestion looking at this from the other side, I wouldn't ask a manufacturer or dealer that question until you're SURE their product is defective.

I know we used to get those inquiries all the time from certain shops and/or techs and it ended up that our product wasn't the problem. Then, when they did have a problem with our product, the warranty guys weren't in any hurry to help. Kind of the "boy who cried WOLF" thing.

Again, just a suggestion.

Fair point I wish I would've considered that thinking back to my retail automotive days when the only way people would buy products or services was by the warranty terms. I loathed those many conversations.

I don't want to come out of this not knowing what went wrong any more so than those following this thread, so I hope my experience with MB Diesel will be more candid and transparent than my dealings with Phoenix Friction.

Here is the email I sent word for word to core :

"Hello I have your 98 to 05 Dodge NV5600 shifter on my 03 and I'm having some trouble shifting. I'm having the truck dropped off at a shop to be looked at and fortunately still have my OEM shifter. I wanted to know if you would warranty the shifter out if it's isolated to be the cause?

I know there are numerous factors that go into "shifting problems" but I have well documented records of any and all changes made to my transmission as well as the before and after driving conditions with a daily trip log book. In saying this I don't suspect your unit to be at fault as I've not previously had any issues with it."

 

[MGreer]

I read about the shifter on Core's website. One thing I noticed was they stated the shifter can cause transmission noise. It didn't go into any specifics on the noise.

 

[Tuesdak]

I read about the shifter on Core's website. One thing I noticed was they stated the shifter can cause transmission noise. It didn't go into any specifics on the noise.

They don't have the OEM noise/vibration damper rubber in the shifter. The cup being worn is what causes slop although some say it's the OEM rubber as well.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

I read about the shifter on Core's website. One thing I noticed was they stated the shifter can cause transmission noise. It didn't go into any specifics on the noise.

I've noted the difference in noise in my books when it was installed on the original clutch. Its pretty minor compared dual disk clutch noises.