Timken Clutch Release bearing, NV5600

[NIsaacs]

I've noted the difference in noise in my books when it was installed on the original clutch. Its pretty minor compared dual disk clutch noises.

Somewhat apples and oranges, NV5600 v/s G56, but watch this video, it may or may not apply. He is a good equipment operator, truck driver and mechanic. Some of his videos are cool too, towards the end this one is funny. He didn't name the shifter company so I don't know if it is the same as yours.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Somewhat apples and oranges, NV5600 v/s G56, but watch this video, it may or may not apply. He is a good equipment operator, truck driver and mechanic. Some of his videos are cool too, towards the end this one is funny. He didn't name the shifter company so I don't know if it is the same as yours.

I've seen some of his content in passing. Noise is the least of my concerns. I'm having to fight shifts.

Should the shift feel when the engine is off or on be the same? I remember the core shifter(engine off and on) was alot tighter feeling as in the lack of slop and took less effort with the additional leverage it provided. OEM shifter(engine off and on) was loose feeling with alot of movement in the H pattern but neither shifter required the amount of force I need now to shift with the dual disk.

Engine off, clutch in, shifting effort is alot easier. Engine on clutch in it's notchy and takes muscle, so much that it's affecting my driving taking my concentration away from the road.

 

[NIsaacs]

Noise is the least of my concerns. I'm having to fight shifts.

Noise was your issue with the Phoenix clutch, maybe caused by the shifter and nothing else.

Now you can't shift it, again, maybe the shifter. When you say you hit a brick wall, maybe the shifter is not following or being guided into the H pattern. Or you are strong arming it, rather than letting is glide in to the hole.

I would reinstall the old one just for the heck of it.

 

[MGreer]

That was my underlying intention with my original remark about the shifter before sending it off to a shop. I figured he didn't want to work on it anymore.
My guess is unfortunately a shop is going to say rebuild.

 

[AH64ID]

Engine off shifting is misleading as syncro’s aren’t needed. It should always be smooth.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Noise was your issue with the Phoenix clutch

Phoenix was a noise and vibration I could feel in the whole truck and hear outside the truck from a distance. I'm aware of the dual disk noise and the noise caused by less isolators in the shifter acting as a stethoscope.

Night and day difference compared to now.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Noise was your issue with the Phoenix clutch, maybe caused by the shifter and nothing else.

Now you can't shift it, again, maybe the shifter. When you say you hit a brick wall, maybe the shifter is not following or being guided into the H pattern. Or you are strong arming it, rather than letting is glide in to the hole.

I would reinstall the old one just for the heck of it.

Can't edit a post with a quote my mistake.

Phoenix also burned the flywheel and pressure plate for a still unknown reason according to their expert analysis. Dual disk in no noise like Phoenix friction. One thing changed the clutch.

Why would the shifter give me issues on a dual disk now versus the OEM clutch or Phoenix? Hydro changed with Phoenix's clutch after that the only difference is the clutch and now a bleed procedure.

There is no gliding or guiding, It takes a strong concentrated hand. I may try the old shifter if I have time but I'm doubtful.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

That was my underlying intention with my original remark about the shifter before sending it off to a shop. I figured he didn't want to work on it anymore.
My guess is unfortunately a shop is going to say rebuild.

I don't want to work on it. Nor do I have the time to during July. I've done everything just short of an engine rebuild in my driveway. The epilogue after this chapter closes is a dash cam, alarm system, window tint and oil changes. I probably won't touch tuning untill I source a matching ECU just as a fail safe. I just want to drive it.

I'll give the shifter a shot if I have time between now and Monday.

I'll give MB Diesel the benefit of the doubt on credibility. If it needs a rebuild I still want to know what failed and why. I carry blocks of salt with me after my experience with PF.

 

[CVR222NV]

Somewhat apples and oranges, NV5600 v/s G56, but watch this video, it may or may not apply. He is a good equipment operator, truck driver and mechanic. Some of his videos are cool too, towards the end this one is funny. He didn't name the shifter company so I don't know if it is the same as yours.

Interesting video! Thanks for sharing Nick. I'm wondering if this is the issue I'm experiencing? I believe I have the same SBC organic dual disk clutch as DBM as well as the SBC hydraulics but like the guy in the video I have the G56. I have been experiencing a problem shifting especially getting the transmission to shift into 2d when I come to a stop. I have described this to some experienced mechanic friends of mine and they think it is the syncro's. Now I'm not so sure after seeing this video. I'm at the crossroads of making a decision to pull my transmission and send it off to Blumenthal to have it and the transfer case rebuilt before reinstalling my motor. I'm trying to wrap my head around why the dual disk clutch would be the cause of this shift issue? My motor is currently out of my truck and I note that there is no play (in - out) in the transmission input shaft. Is the additional pressure plate rating of the dual disc the cause? Has anyone posed this question to SBC to see if they have other customers that have experienced this issue and if there is anything that can be done?

 

[BigPapa]

Has anyone posed this question to SBC to see if they have other customers that have experienced this issue and if there is anything that can be done?

That’s EXACTLY what I would do if I thought the clutch was the problem. SBC’s customer service is second to none and they will shoot you straight.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Update.....

Just got my truck back from MB Diesel performance. No one was able to replicate the symptoms I had until today when the owner took it for a final test drive with me before I drove it home. They put exactly 89 miles on the truck (it pays to keep a log book) while test driving it and nothing was found out of order. We observed the exact same symptoms I noted when I dropped it off originally, today as it was leaving.

MB Diesel verified the clutch was functioning as it should as well as the hydro. Shifter was not the issue and the OEM shifter was swapped to see if there was a difference; shifting didn't change as far as the feel but the tech said the short shifter was alot better than the OEM and the shift points in general for the transmission were alot better than majority of the manual trucks they work on.

Owners final consensus was that additional mass and speed of the dual disk are amplifying symptoms of wear and tear on the synchro's not seen before on a single disk.4th and 3rd gear synchro's are the worst of the bunch. As it sits with 231,401mi the transmission needs a rebuild. I had figured this would be the case going into it given every other change made to the transmission being accounted for leaving the internals to be the only remaining variable. He doesn't think the two times the trans was dropped would've done any internal damage unless the case or bell housing cracked. I left a message with south bend clutch about this to confirm how much sense it makes to them and see if it lines up with any other calls about their products. I'll try getting ahold of them again tomorrow.

I asked the owner are there any decent shops on the east coast that you would recommend for a rebuild or is it worth it to just send out to Super Stick or Precision Transmission, etc. and he mentioned a local small shop that he does consistent business with for stock rebuilds. Other wise he recommended Super Stick down in Texas or ATS which I didn't know built manuals; I'll have to call and confirm when I get the chance.

While the truck was with MB Diesel I had Xotic head studs installed and Reaper traction bars welded on. Studs were fairly straight forward with no issue, I'll watch coolant levels.

I do have a gripe about the bars though, left axle bracket is farther forward than the right one and this annoys the hell out of me; after the welding was done the tech spray painted the brackets and bare frame with the bars mounted over-spraying the powder coated bars and hardware. I'm not one to break out a microfiber towel and wipe my truck after every time it gets on the road but I pay attention to detail and this hits a nerve even more so that it's the only powder coated item on my truck. I wouldn't have cared if the bars were perfectly symmetrical on both sides but the overspray is the cherry on top. It looks like the brackets were tacked with the bars then welded with them in, its not complete on all possible sides. The job honestly looks rushed. But they're on and they work. Left bar has more preload on it than the right one. My tires are shot from my previous front end but if a new set shows wear on the rear i'll take it back if I can't correct it myself by adjusting it.

My overall experience with MB Diesel is indifferent, when I figure out who's rebuilding my trans I'll send it back to them to pull it ship it and install it. I don't remember breaking any mirrors but it seems like I'm just absorbing everyone's bad luck they didn't have when replacing a clutch in an NV56. This is stupid... one bad clutch disk, a functioning dual disk, and now a transmission that needs a rebuild.

Edit: went back out to the truck to put something in it and laid on the ground wondering how this is going to get on a lift with the traction bars. Noticed on the right bar, the forward jam nut isn't seated on the bar its seated on the heim joint.... I'm not happy with the traction bar job at all. I wish I would've used my friends brother in law who runs a 4x4 fab shop.

 

[Tuesdak]

I did mention syncro's wear out and it's hard to get over that MT's also need rebuilds not just a clutch. My HD clutch made 3rd worse notchy before I had it rebuilt with the engine. Then it was night and day difference.

I used Standard Transmission & Gear, the AZ location before the owner of it retired. TX is the only choice now. They invented the "fix" for the rear bearing lube problem that's standard machined in every new NV5600 case today.

https://standardtransmission.com/

I got it back, put in with the engine rebuild, and it worked. Unlike the engine that had to come back out in 500 miles. I can't recommend em any better than that.

Edit: I believe they are a TDR advertiser.

 

[BigPapa]

Standard Transmission or Blumenthal is who I’d go with.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

I did mention syncro's wear out and it's hard to get over that MT's also need rebuilds not just a clutch.

I know but I was skeptical of how worn they could possibly be at 230K, apparently the previous owners beat the piss out of it more than I thought with the 5th wheel holes in the bed... If south bend agrees with the line of thought me and MB Diesel are on as to the cause I would ask that they put a small disclaimer on the dual disk units that on higher mileage trucks a trans rebuild is recommended because a dual disk can amplify synchro wear symptoms and make shifting very hard or impossible. I'm not a one off with hard shifting problems on a dual disk and majority of their units are going in high mileage trucks. I'd like my experience to be learned from at the very least.

I used Standard Transmission & Gear, the AZ location before the owner of it retired. TX is the only choice now. They invented the "fix" for the rear bearing lube problem that's standard machined in every new NV5600 case today.

I'll call and ask myself but do you know if STG has any other improved offerings for the NV56? hardened gears? "better" synchros? I'd like the rebuilt unit to go farther than 230K

I want to attempt to get in contact with Super Stick and ask about their offerings but this job may come down to turnaround time.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Standard Transmission or Blumenthal is who I’d go with.

I'll give both a call.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Got in contact with South Bend and Standard Transmission and Gear.

South Bend says the symptoms I'm describing aren't like any they've heard before when trouble shooting dual disk issues on an NV5600. They did say wearable components inside the trans could be the cause or at least partially; this goes back to the idea of "Wear and tear on the synchro's after 230Kmi could be amplifying the harshness of the shifting depending on the condition they are in."

I was given a personal number to call and send pictures of the transmission tear down and clutch components too. South Bend's customer service is setting the gold standard.

Spoke to STG and got a decent quote, talked to them about my shifting issues and symptoms and they're at the conclusion of expecting something internally to be wrong or worn. STG of Fort Worth Texas will being rebuilding the trans and transferase. I'm having a different shop pull the assembly to be shipped out west. I have an appointment with this shop on the 24th to test drive my truck and get a second opinion, They seem more competent in their operation and experience than MB Diesel currently.

Un-related to my transmission issues yet another issue all the same

I don't have an appointment for the trans to be pulled yet because my head gasket is leaking from the head stud installation at MB Diesel. She's been drinking coolant since the 3rd and its now progressively worse.
No coolant in my oil
Start up took more cranking 3-4 revolutions where before it was .5 -1 (this is in mid to high 90* weather)
No abnormal discoloration on cold start up
Abnormal ticking noise from engine on cold start at idle that wasn't there before
System held pressure at 19psi for 2hours and 15mins (19 psi cap on aftermarket rad)
No external leaks all fittings, lines, and caps checked
Exactly 300mi since pick up from MB and my coolant level from the Max mark in the reservoir has dropped more than 3".

They won't be able to look at it until the 6th of September supposedly. I really don't have that kind of time to wait around when I need this truck to be on the road for fall. I can only imagine how long it'll be once my transmission is pulled to get it back in given shipping times and the current lack of drivers. I'm going to call and see if they can spare the tech who worked on it to do a hot retorque. For the price I paid to have my truck slapped back together like it is; its the least they could do before it turns into a head job.

 

[NIsaacs]

Exactly 300mi since pick up from MB and my coolant level from the Max mark in the reservoir has dropped more than 3".

Just to be clear. In the 300 miles since you picked up the truck, it has used a total of 3" of coolant out of the bottle? Nothing was added at all, prior to this 3"?

If so, it is probably fine. It requires a few overnight shutdowns to fill the cooling system, full. Fill the bottle and continue to monitor.

Also, can you remind me on what you used for transmission oil?

 

[bcbender]

I went with Blumenthal, trans was problem free after that. At that time I had mine rebuilt, they were the factory authorized rebuilder for RAM if I remember correctly, not sure about now but it was less that 4K for a complete rebuild with a 2y / unlimited miles warranty. They replaced input shaft, all brgs / syncros, several gears and the mainshaft. Mine was pretty torn up due to a pilot bearing failure that went undiagnosed / replaced for thousands of miles. Amazing how tough that trans is, lightyears over the 4500.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Just to be clear. In the 300 miles since you picked up the truck, it has used a total of 3" of coolant out of the bottle? Nothing was added at all, prior to this 3"?

The cooling system was fully bleed prior to head stud installation with 227mi before it was dropped off with MB Diesel. I'd like to emphasize there are no leaks on this engine at all.

When I first drove it home I noticed the level was down less than a half inch. I didn't top it off at that time and made note of it. Days later after driving I check under the hood and the level has dropped abit more, a half to 3/4". I top it off at this time back to max and make note of it. A few days later I check again and the level has dropped much more rapidly than the previously noted combined about an inch and 3/4s to two inches. At this time I made note of a confirmed consumption issue did not top it off, took pictures, and called MB Diesel.

If so, it is probably fine. It requires a few overnight shutdowns to fill the cooling system, full. Fill the bottle and continue to monitor.

What I don't understand is why I would be seeing low coolant levels when the system was bleed and full prior to studs. The stud installation procedure was the 1 by 1 method. Why or how would the cooling system have been opened up for stud installation?

 

[Darkbloodmon]

I went with Blumenthal, trans was problem free after that. At that time I had mine rebuilt, they were the factory authorized rebuilder for RAM if I remember correctly, not sure about now but it was less that 4K for a complete rebuild with a 2y / unlimited miles warranty. They replaced input shaft, all brgs / syncros, several gears and the mainshaft. Mine was pretty torn up due to a pilot bearing failure that went undiagnosed / replaced for thousands of miles. Amazing how tough that trans is, lightyears over the 4500.

I'm hoping STG has majority of the parts in stock when they tear it apart. They don't have any built units at all ready to ship. What comes is goes back out. SBC more than recommended them when I mentioned a rebuild. I really looking forward to putting all this behind me.